[Forge]

MusicallyInspired, on 14 December 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

Isn't that the story where Luke and Leia develop a romantic relationship (being released before ESB)?

It's been a long time since I read the book - I don't recall any romantic relationships. I mostly remember it as an exploration/survival & overcoming adversity story.
But yes, it was before ESB was released. If there were any such rabbit holes, they could be written out of the script.

[Forge]

fuegerstef, on 14 December 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

EDIT:
But for me Rogue One is still one of the best despite it's slow first third.

Well then, there's only one thing could have made it better:

[MusicallyInspired]

Short first impressions review (FULL OF SPOILERS):

Spoiler

Officially following this group again! What a great trip! I saw it last night at 10:30. Had to drive into town to see it so i didn't get home until 2:30am! Running on 4 hours sleep at work today but it's friday so it should be fine.

I loved that Luke's V1 made it into the film somehow but I'm exceedingly sad that he didn't use it in his "duel" with Kylo. Obviously he threw it away long ago, judging from how he initially just callously threw the Graflex away. There was no reason for him to use it in that scene. It made no sense. It must have been fan service having everyone see him with Old Blue again but I honestly don't think it was necessary and was let down by it.

But that's ok. It was in the film and had a nice closeup to boot! I'm sure we'll be getting TLJ designs for the Hero from smiths eventually. I don't know how much difference there is (it was hard to tell wearing those 3D glasses that dim everything and make it fuzzy and flickery.....I hate 3D glasses) but it seemed different somehow.

I also loved how they treated the similarities to the classic films this time around. It starts out being very close to ESB but they very smartly also made it a mix of ESB AND ROTJ at the same time! Really shows that they're turning the storylines on their heads. I take that as a direct message that they're done with "copying" the originals. And they also twisted around the ROTJ format to boot. At first I was excited that Kylo turned on Snoke (and also glad that that nobody was out of the picture) but realized seconds before it happened that he was doing it for himself in true Dark Side fashion.

All of that really drives home the whole "forget the past" angle on both sides with Kylo erasing the past and Luke/Yoda (I LOVED that cameo! lol) destroying the Jedi tree and texts. All of this is more and more evidence that they are going in a new direction for Ep9. Though, I wonder what they're going to do with Leia..

The only thing I felt was stupid was making Luke disappear at the end. I couldn't figure out why he was struggling at the end there and with Leia and Rey both sensing something impending. And then they kill him off. Bah. Right after he just said "See you around, kid" to Kylo. It just felt really jarring and out of place. I'm sure he'll be a ghost but I really would have rather had him in actual action with his Hero hilt. I know it makes sense ultimately, but....agh...just a bit of a letdown to an otherwise fantastic experience. I also didn't like the whole "destroy this rich town" bit that just seemed so rushed and slammed in your face suddenly. It all happened too quickly to really care about.

Oh, I also think lady admiral with the purple hair looked stupid.

But as I said, otherwise a mostly great experience. I'm hesitant to say whether it's better than ESB (or any other OT film) yet. It's too soon and ESB was never my favourite anyway. But I did really enjoy the story. Loved the twists and turns and not knowing what to expect. That's the thing, despite its similarity to ESB (and ROTJ with a twist), I found myself never knowing what was going to happen from one moment to the next. That is similarity and homage to originals done right. Will have to see it again soon!

I'm also glad that I was able to take my kids to watch these movies in the theater. I never saw a single Star Wars movie in theater when I was a kid. TFA was my first Star Wars film in a cinema. I'm happy I've got a chance to give my kids that experience.

[Mark]

Jar Jar Returns. That was a real LOL. Not just emoticon lol

[Fantinaikos]

Imagine the entire original trilogy with blood, all the alternative or unnecessary rhythm breaking scenes that was cutted out, some of scenes exposed in a different order to change it's meaning, cheesy audio effects, pre-SW 60's-70's sci-fi music, a subtitled R2-D2 and and old movie filters.

You have archived The War of the Stars and The War of the Stars II - The Future in Motion the grindhoused Star Wars.

The War of the Stars
https://vimeo.com/151257979

The War of the Stars II - The Future in Motion
https://vimeo.com/151808492

[Danukem]

I haven't seen it yet and I'm avoiding spoilers, but, I noticed something interesting when checking the score on Rotten Tomatoes. Last Jedi has a 93% rating among reviewers, but only 57% among the actual audience. Why the huge discrepancy? I believe that is highly unusual. For example, let's look at another current high scoring movie. Coco currently has 97% among reviewers and 96% from the audience...almost exactly the same. So what is going on here? Can anyone provide insights without spoilers?

[Mark]

1. The audience was hardcore SW geeks and more critical of the details in the movie.
2. The reviewers were paid off for a great review.
3. A typo in the comparison figures.

Whatever the reason, it is odd.

[MusicallyInspired]

I'd say door number one. This film really departs from what you'd expect. Everyone wanted this to not be a rehash of ESB like TFA was a rehash of ANH, but when it actually happened I think it took a lot of people off guard and rubbed them the wrong way. Some people don't like their nostalgia played with. I, for one, really enjoyed it and I'm excited for the next episode even more than before as I'm absolutely sure it's going to traverse brand new territory this time and NOT rehash of ROTJ at all.

[Danukem]

Surely option 1 has something to do with it. I've also heard that the film has a slower pace and some have said it drags in the middle. General audiences tend to be very impatient.

On a somewhat related note, audiences were very critical of Alien Covenant, whereas I enjoyed it quite a bit. I believe a lot of people just didn't understand or accept what the film was actually about. They wanted it to be about fighting aliens, when really the humans were incidental and it was about the androids and their struggles and philosophy. People's stubborn expectations can often drag down the score of a good film.

[MusicallyInspired]

I don't think it dragged (in fact, I thought it was a good solid length). But there was a section in the middle that some people felt was out of place and I can understand why. That doesn't really mean it dragged, though.

I think that people who didn't really like TFA will like TLJ and people who really liked TFA will be somewhat disappointed in TLJ. Meanwhile, if you just enjoyed TFA you will enjoy TLJ as well. It continues a trend that TFA started of being better than the PT but maybe not up to most peoples' OT standards.

[Fox]

Trooper Dan, on 15 December 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

I haven't seen it yet and I'm avoiding spoilers, but, I noticed something interesting when checking the score on Rotten Tomatoes. Last Jedi has a 93% rating among reviewers, but only 57% among the actual audience. Why the huge discrepancy?

I have no idea how the audience could not like this movie. Maybe the only way to please them would be to show a rerun of Empire.

[Forge]

From the few things I've read, people didn't like the cliff hangers, non-answers about characters, and the disposable characters.

But if you're old enough to remember - the same complaints happened with ESB. (aside from the disposable character - but that happened with Darth Maul)

[----]

Fox, on 15 December 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

I have no idea how the audience could not like this movie. Maybe the only way to please them would be to show a rerun of Empire.

Here are my thoughts about TLJ.

Please note that I didn't want this to be a rehash of Empire and I am open for new stuff. The problems I had (and still have) with TLJ are:

(I saw the dubbed version (no original version in my town), so the quotes are translated back to english but might not exactly the original lines word by word)

Spoiler

So, Snoke describes his commander of the fleet as a stupid dog. And Hux even acts like one.
Kylo is "a stupid child with a mask who lost to an untrained girl".
And still SNoke gets easily killed by him.

So these three aren't the most clever and strongest persons in the galaxy.

And yet they manage to kill off the whoele new Republic and become evil rulers of the galaxy who are feared by people everywhere.
Jeez, if these retards managed to do that ... how stupid must the Republic have been?

To me TLJ only showed that everybody in the galaxy is really stupid (I blame it on the lack of oxygen in space).
And the characters aren't presented in a way that they seem to pose a threat.

And the whole movie is about some people going somewhere and then coming back. And it all could have been avoided if Honlo just told her plan to Poe (which a good commander should do anyways in a desperate situation to avoid the motivation going down ...so, another stupid character here).

And if you easily kill a huuuge Star Destroyer by going into it at hyperspeed ... people could have done that with for example every Death Star and even Starkiller Base (use Autopilot if you don't want to die ... or even better: build bombs that go there at hyperspeed instead of sending 10 bombers of which 9 are shot down easily at slow speed).

Say about the old Exapanded Universe what you want ... but there it was mentioned and explained that gravity pulls you out of hyperspace so that all we have seen in this movie isn't possible and makes all that more believable

So, in coclusion: I didn't like the movie after the first watching, because although it is a fairy tale in space it is highly illogic even for that (world building is done with consistency within that world) and stupid people doing stupid things, just to have a 2,5 hour movie.
I needed one day to say good bye to the old Star Wars (which, as mentioned several times in the movie, was the intention) and accept that it now is something completely different where you can watch the battles, the fights and have some beautiful imagery but no story anymore, no great characters or anything remotely believable.

Just my personal opinion.

[Fox]

Forge, on 15 December 2017 - 06:42 PM, said:

non-answers about characters, and the disposable characters.

It's the same as the original trilogy. For example, Snoke is very much like the Emperor, a space wizard who ruled the galaxy and died in a non-flattering way.

Lucas made the prequels to explain the origin of the character and everyone hated it.

fuegerstef, on 16 December 2017 - 02:23 AM, said:

To me TLJ only showed that everybody in the galaxy is really stupid (I blame it on the lack of oxygen in space).

Same as the original trilogy.

[----]

Yes, the original trilogy had it's flaws and many mistakes, but not nearly as many as TLJ, which throws every bit of logic out of the window.

And at least Vader and Tarkin felt like threats. The Emperor too. Snoke not so much. He is just "the next guy".


But then ... a new Star Wars movie once was an event people waited years (or even decades) for. Now the next Star Wars movie is only five months away. It is nothing special anymore.


As usual: just my opinion.

[NightFright]

I believe the discrepancy between official and user reviews is rather simple to explain: hurt pride of fans.

Many fanboys out there had their theories about where Snoke came from, who Rey's parents were and how awesome Luke will be demonstrating his skills with the Force and lightsaber. But Disney showed them all the middle finger and now they just can't handle that they couldn't claim they were on the side that knew it all.

The Last Jedi is intentionally walking down an unconventional path. You have to live with that and keep an open mind or you'll inevitably hate it.

[Fox]

fuegerstef, on 16 December 2017 - 06:16 AM, said:

Yes, the original trilogy had it's flaws and many mistakes, but not nearly as many as TLJ, which throws every bit of logic out of the window.

They are very much the same.

[----]

Fox, on 16 December 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

They are very much the same.

No, not even close.

[Fox]

NightFright, on 16 December 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

I believe the discrepancy between official and user reviews is rather simple to explain: hurt pride of fans.

Many fanboys out there had their theories about where Snoke came from, who Rey's parents were and how awesome Luke will be demonstrating his skills with the Force and lightsaber. But Disney showed them all the middle finger and now they just can't handle that they couldn't claim they were on the side that knew it all.

The Last Jedi is intentionally walking down an unconventional path. You have to live with that and keep an open mind or you'll inevitably hate it.

The Last Jedi was awesome. It was innovative. Yet it captured the feeling of the original trilogy.

[MusicallyInspired]

fuegerstef, on 16 December 2017 - 06:16 AM, said:

And at least Vader and Tarkin felt like threats. The Emperor too. Snoke not so much. He is just "the next guy".

That was exactly the intended effect. What worked before isn't going to work anymore. This was the whole message of the movie from beginning to end.

Quote

But then ... a new Star Wars movie once was an event people waited years (or even decades) for. Now the next Star Wars movie is only five months away. It is nothing special anymore.

This was James Rolfe's opinion as well. I can't stress how much I dislike it. I don't understand it because originally there wasn't even supposed to be an Episode 1-3. After the original trilogy nobody was waiting for another one. It wasn't expected. Then it just happened. Same with this Disney trilogy. Lucas even said he was done with it: "It starts when he's born and ends when he dies. There is no more story." I don't think that argument holds water at all. I've never seen it as a "event" that comes around every other decade or so.

fuegerstef, on 16 December 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

No, not even close.

I've never liked ESB as much as everyone else so I have to agree with Fox here. I wasn't around when ESB came out, but when I watched it it was so different from ANH and had so many uninteresting or unlikeable locations that it seemed like the antithesis of ANH. Now, looking back I prefer ANH the least of the OT, but ESB still remains in that mindset to me. Never preferred it, but I can still respect it and enjoy it no doubt. It's not like I hate it (like so many seem to hate TLJ). ROTJ was always my favourite and I still think it is, but I have to watch TLJ again. Either way, TLJ is going to be just as divisive as ESB. I don't know why or how ESB came to be the "fan favourite" and I don't even know if that's a majority opinion. Is it just because of the "I am your father" revelation? Because as huge as that was, it's still a tiny tiny part of the film. The rest of it is...pretty good, ok, not bad, acceptable, great. Just not the "OMG IT'S PERFECT" that everyone expects everyone else to say.

But what do I know, I didn't mind the ewoks either.

[MusicallyInspired]

Happened upon this article today on TLJ. It's loaded with spoilers so don't read if you haven't seen it yet and care about being spoiled. But it sums up my thoughts almost exactly.

‘The Last Jedi’ Doesn’t Care What You Think About ‘Star Wars’ – And That’s Why It’s Great

Also, I read in another article that Lucas himself saw a screening of the film and said it was "highly impressive" and "beautifully made". Interesting reaction.

[Forge]

MusicallyInspired, on 16 December 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

I've never liked ESB as much as everyone else so I have to agree with Fox here. I wasn't around when ESB came out, but when I watched it it was so different from ANH and had so many uninteresting or unlikeable locations that it seemed like the antithesis of ANH. Now, looking back I prefer ANH the least of the OT, but ESB still remains in that mindset to me. Never preferred it, but I can still respect it and enjoy it no doubt. It's not like I hate it (like so many seem to hate TLJ). ROTJ was always my favourite and I still think it is, but I have to watch TLJ again. Either way, TLJ is going to be just as divisive as ESB. I don't know why or how ESB came to be the "fan favourite" and I don't even know if that's a majority opinion. Is it just because of the "I am your father" revelation? Because as huge as that was, it's still a tiny tiny part of the film. The rest of it is...pretty good, ok, not bad, acceptable, great. Just not the "OMG IT'S PERFECT" that everyone expects everyone else to say.

But what do I know, I didn't mind the ewoks either.

A lot of people hated ESB at the time - for the things I said - which parallel what is happening to this current film.
Plot holes, cliffhangers, unanswered questions about characters.

Quite a few people were actually pissed about how it ended - with no ending.
It also kinda started with no start as well - especially considering the NH ended with a big ol' victory celebration.

ESB gained popularity in hindsight after ROtJ was released and filled in some of the unanswered story lines.

Of course RotJ pissed a few people off when it 'disposed' of Boba Fett in a rather weak way. He's wearing a jet-pak and has weaponry, he can just shoot & fly his ass out of the sarlacc pit. A lot of star wars nerds had a man-crush on that character.

MusicallyInspired, on 16 December 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

This was James Rolfe's opinion as well. I can't stress how much I dislike it. I don't understand it because originally there wasn't even supposed to be an Episode 1-3. After the original trilogy nobody was waiting for another one. It wasn't expected. Then it just happened. Same with this Disney trilogy. Lucas even said he was done with it: "It starts when he's born and ends when he dies. There is no more story." I don't think that argument holds water at all. I've never seen it as a "event" that comes around every other decade or so.

Dislike it or disagree if you wish, but at the time it was true. Rumors and anticipation between the films was pretty fervored for the fan-base. They were big events.
The second trilogy (I thru III) was nothing but rumor for years. People were very excited when the rumors of their making got confirmed.
They came out in rapid succession, but didn't appeal to the audience like the first series for various reasons. This kinda killed it; the expectations, the anticipation, and the excitement. Now it's just a movie series like the marvel comics movies or something.

[----]

Ackbar should have been the one turning the last ship towards the New Order's ships.

1) "Ha, now we got them."

2) THen they realize his plan: "It's a trap".

3) Whooooooosssshhhh.

4) *silence with awesome imagery*

[MusicallyInspired]

That......is brilliant.

After watching a few reviews I was surprised to learn that James Rolfe loved it but Angry Joe hated it. I really thought it'd be the other way around.

[Altered Reality]

My greatest fear about episode 8 was that it would just be a ripoff of episode 5. Fortunately, that did not happen.
I have a major gripe with it, though, which is...

Spoiler

the lack of information about Snoke. And no, that is not "like the original trilogy", because in episode 6, Palpatine had an active part in the fight going on. In episode 8, Snoke just dies like a bitch.

[MusicallyInspired]

Spoiler

I really could care less about Snoke. He was the cliche that needed to die off. Glad he's gone. Never liked his character because he wasn't set up enough in TFA at all. Just a big "all powerful" baddie. It fit in nicely with the whole story about killing the past.

[Fox]

[NightFright]

BTW, just in case you haven't read about it yet... maybe there's an explanation for the user ratings on Rotten Tomatoes.

This isn't going the way I thought...

[Forge]

NightFright, on 18 December 2017 - 02:54 AM, said:

maybe there's an explanation for the user ratings on Rotten Tomatoes.

the juicier parts:
" Rotten Tomatoes is a site that isn’t exactly well balanced when it comes to representation of critics who are women or people of color."
written by:
Kaitly...."has a love for female superheroes and...watching political satire".

the tl;dr version:
some nazi got butthurt that The Last Jedi has diversity, so they "hacked" the score. Be assured half a dozen times, in case you're hyperventilating, that the scores are meaningless.

[MusicallyInspired]

I think the scores are accurate....for now. Because people have been coming out of the theater actually feeling something, but it was something they didn't like. They didn't like that their expectations weren't met. That's not a bad thing. This to me is confirmation that the movie was a hit.