PolymerNG will use Vulkan and D3D12
#61 Posted 19 December 2015 - 03:19 AM
#62 Posted 19 December 2015 - 06:30 AM
#63 Posted 20 December 2015 - 11:23 PM
CPU Time: This is how long the Duke Game Thread takes to execute.
GPU Time: How long the graphics card takes to chew on the graphics data.
Link to fullsize image:
http://s1175.photobu...wn2ses.png.html
EDIT: Fixed palette issues, and updated the image.
This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 21 December 2015 - 01:03 AM
#64 Posted 22 December 2015 - 07:28 AM
I was hoping, base-color, metallic, roughness and normals like UE4
#65 Posted 22 December 2015 - 09:28 AM
Steveeeie, on 22 December 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:
I was hoping, base-color, metallic, roughness and normals like UE4
I posted this on the first page of this topic: Albedo, Normal, Spec, Spec2, SSS Maps, Displacement, Mask, Glow, and Animated Textures.
#66 Posted 22 December 2015 - 12:30 PM
Plagman, on 07 June 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:
Diaz, on 07 June 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:
Plagman, on 07 June 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:
EDuke32's support for DDS comes from KPLIB and is more a convenience than anything else, since it uncompresses the DXT data in software and discards the mipmap when reading it from disk (after that, hightile re-compresses it and re-generates mipmaps like every other image format and writes it to the disk cache).
wayskobfssae, on 07 June 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:
This post has been edited by TON: 22 December 2015 - 12:40 PM
#67 Posted 22 December 2015 - 12:49 PM
TON, on 22 December 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:
As I've said before I'd prefer to only support TGA, and let the engine DXT compress those images for you. I can't vouch for the compression quality of various image exporters, but I'll keep the DDS format support if its in there.
I know TON post is about DDS textures(which are DXT compressed), if I allowed usage of PNG textures, the engine would have to decompress the PNG image and re-compress it to DXT format for image upload. The only advantage PNG format gives you, it saves HD space on the dev machines.
This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 22 December 2015 - 12:54 PM
#68 Posted 22 December 2015 - 12:52 PM
Regardless, PolymerNG must load assets through the def parser, and it must keep compatibility with all formats we support now. KPLIB should be satisfactory for loading PNG/JPG/GIF/TGA/BMP/PCX, but its DDS implementation is counterproductive.
#69 Posted 22 December 2015 - 12:55 PM
Hendricks266, on 22 December 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:
Regardless, PolymerNG must load assets through the def parser, and it must keep compatibility with all formats we support now. KPLIB should be satisfactory for loading PNG/JPG/GIF/TGA/BMP/PCX, but its DDS implementation is counterproductive.
Why is the DDS implementation counter productive?
This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 22 December 2015 - 12:56 PM
#70 Posted 22 December 2015 - 12:56 PM
icecoldduke, on 22 December 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:
Plagman, on 07 June 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:
We should use the DXT data in the DDS since the whole point of using DDS is having that pre-calculated.
#71 Posted 22 December 2015 - 01:02 PM
Hendricks266, on 22 December 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:
The issue I have with DDS is I can't vouch for the quality of the DXT compression used in whatever exporter people use. People also need to use the right DXT compression method for there normal maps or you can get a mess.
I don't mind supporting those formats for legacy content, but for newer content people should use TGA. Taking compressed data(e.g PNG) and converting it to DXT data can do bad things to textures . It's always best to take raw data and do compression off of that.
This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 22 December 2015 - 01:54 PM
#72 Posted 22 December 2015 - 01:07 PM
icecoldduke, on 22 December 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:
PNG is lossless, damnit. How many times do I have to go through that in this thread?
icecoldduke, on 22 December 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:
It seems like you're intent to hold content creators' hands too hard. We simply have to document the following things:
1. Don't use PNG optimizers that mangle unseen data in the alpha channel.
2. Use PolymerNG's custom compressor to make DDS files from your lossless PNGs or TGAs.
Once PolymerNG is more developed, I'll look into PNGOUT and talk to Ken if it needs a new option.
It might be possible for #2 to detect when an alpha channel has been mangled and warn the user. IIRC, there are clear signs if that it the case.
#73 Posted 22 December 2015 - 01:18 PM
Hendricks266, on 22 December 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:
The algorithm is lossless you are correct, but I have seen various exporters(including Photoshop) mangle the output so the data was actually lossly. I have personally seen(and have had to deal with) graphical errors due to content loaded from PNG's(and it wasn't just alpha channel errors). The answer was to tell the content guys to export the data as TGA's and let the engine do the compression. People are going to have various issues with the new renderer, and it would be easier on my self if content guys would stick with TGA, so I can rule out any content issues right off the bat.
Content guys are going to be exporting there data using a variety of different tools, and I don't have time to support them all .
Hendricks266, on 22 December 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:
It's always best to give content creators a clear set of guideless that are guaranteed to produce the best results, and force content developers to adhere to those standards. It's not that hard to export content to TGA's.
This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 22 December 2015 - 01:24 PM
#74 Posted 22 December 2015 - 01:23 PM
Dec 18 00:46:40 <Hendricks266> your argument is completely invalid
Dec 18 00:46:51 <Hendricks266> every normal, specular, diffuse, glow, and detail map in the HRP is PNG
I think we still have some JPEG Polymost stuff but that's beside the point.
#75 Posted 22 December 2015 - 01:43 PM
Hendricks266, on 22 December 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:
Dec 18 00:46:40 <Hendricks266> your argument is completely invalid
Dec 18 00:46:51 <Hendricks266> every normal, specular, diffuse, glow, and detail map in the HRP is PNG
I think we still have some JPEG Polymost stuff but that's beside the point.
I stand by the workflow I'm purposing, it minimizes errors and that's what we need . I'll add support for those other formats, but I won't have time to offer technical support to teams that don't follow the recommend workflow.
So instead of legacy mode, there will be "technical support" and "non technical support" modes.
This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 22 December 2015 - 02:29 PM
#76 Posted 22 December 2015 - 02:36 PM
icecoldduke, on 22 December 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:
EDIT: My statement in that instant message was bad verbage on my part.
Nice to see, that formats like JPG and PNG will be supported, too. My mod uses a huge amount of new textures and has already a size of 1.5 GB, although I´m using JPGs and PNGs only.
Anyways, I have three questions about the new renderer:
1.) Though I´m not using Win 10 and won´t be able to use DX12, is there already a release date for Vulkan?
2.) Can I keep working on my Polymer mod and switch easily to the new renderer afterwards or do you suggest to wait for a working version of it?
3.) What kind of video cards are required for the new renderer? Actually I´m running Polymer on my notebook with a nVidia GT635M, which is a little less powerful than a GTX 460. Polymer runs very well with it, but will I still be able to run the new renderer with it or is a more powerful card recommended?
#77 Posted 22 December 2015 - 02:45 PM
blizzart, on 22 December 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:
Anyways, I have three questions about the new renderer:
1.) Though I´m not using Win 10 and won´t be able to use DX12, is there already a release date for Vulkan?
2.) Can I keep working on my Polymer mod and switch easily to the new renderer afterwards or do you suggest to wait for a working version of it?
3.) What kind of video cards are required for the new renderer? Actually I´m running Polymer on my notebook with a nVidia GT635M, which is a little less powerful than a GTX 460. Polymer runs very well with it, but will I still be able to run the new renderer with it or is a more powerful card recommended?
1) The Vulkan release date hasn't been released yet.
2) PolymerNG will load Polymer mods, but all the new graphics features in PolymerNG won't be enabled until you enable them.
3) I haven't flushed out min spec yet.
This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 22 December 2015 - 02:45 PM
#78 Posted 22 December 2015 - 03:22 PM
How much control will we have over individual materials?
#79 Posted 22 December 2015 - 04:04 PM
This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 22 December 2015 - 04:59 PM
#80 Posted 22 December 2015 - 04:08 PM
#82 Posted 22 December 2015 - 04:11 PM
Mark., on 22 December 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:
No, the above is for people that want more granular control over how there content is renderer. You don't have to do any of what I posted above, you can just toggle all the render params I have exposed in the materials. You CAN expand on those params to make custom content IF you want too .
This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 22 December 2015 - 04:13 PM
#84 Posted 22 December 2015 - 04:15 PM
Hendricks266, on 22 December 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:
I should know better, I should wait to post a comprehensive guide before I post random bits of info that scare the content guys away .
#85 Posted 22 December 2015 - 04:25 PM
icecoldduke, on 22 December 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:
*hangs coat back up*
#86 Posted 22 December 2015 - 05:43 PM
#87 Posted 22 December 2015 - 07:07 PM
icecoldduke, on 22 December 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:
2) PolymerNG will load Polymer mods, but all the new graphics features in PolymerNG won't be enabled until you enable them.
3) I haven't flushed out min spec yet.
Thank you for your answers.
I´ve just read this: https://www.khronos.org/vulkan, so I think it shouldn´t take to long until I could get my hand on your work.
Also, it´s great to hear that the new renderer will be downwards compatible.
Will there be any fallback capatibility, so that content created for the new renderer will also be running with Polymer (by turning off features, that Polymer doesn´t know)?
#88 Posted 22 December 2015 - 10:03 PM
Tea Monster, on 22 December 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:
That would be fantastic if someone could make a node based material system happen.
blizzart, on 22 December 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:
I´ve just read this: https://www.khronos.org/vulkan, so I think it shouldn´t take to long until I could get my hand on your work.
Also, it´s great to hear that the new renderer will be downwards compatible.
Will there be any fallback capatibility, so that content created for the new renderer will also be running with Polymer (by turning off features, that Polymer doesn´t know)?
Mods made in PolymerNG should be some what backwards compatible to the previous renderer. Any new PolymerNG features obviously won't work, and any materials that use custom shaders will not be backwards compatible.
#89 Posted 24 December 2015 - 08:32 AM
Specifically I'm asking about the lack of multiply skyboxes in one map, and the way level geometry get renders through a parallax sky that would not be drawn in Classic or Polymost.
EDuke32 Wiki - Polymer_Deficiencies
Quote
level geometry is displayed through skyboxes when it should not
#90 Posted 27 December 2015 - 09:13 PM
Drek, on 24 December 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:
Specifically I'm asking about the lack of multiply skyboxes in one map, and the way level geometry get renders through a parallax sky that would not be drawn in Classic or Polymost.
EDuke32 Wiki - Polymer_Deficiencies
I can't promise content made for Polymer will render the same under PolymerNG, it should, but I can't promise anything.