System Shock: Enhanced Edition released on GOG
#31 Posted 23 June 2016 - 03:37 AM
#32 Posted 23 June 2016 - 04:30 AM
HulkNukem, on 22 June 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:
Not really, a million pays for about 10 engineers for one year. Depending on the scope of what they want to do..a million isn't a lot of money when starting a game project. In reality they should narrow there scope a bit, mostly because the expected amount of units sold will not exceeed 100,000 units.
This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 23 June 2016 - 04:32 AM
#33 Posted 23 June 2016 - 05:09 AM
This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 23 June 2016 - 05:10 AM
#34 Posted 23 June 2016 - 05:15 AM
MusicallyInspired, on 23 June 2016 - 05:09 AM, said:
I honestly hope they don't. It's actually beneficial for game studios to have a finite amount of money to work with, that will barely let the project get by. This way the upper management can't push for more features that inevitably over complicate the project, which would result in a pile of shit when its released. Less money = narrower scope = better product.
#35 Posted 23 June 2016 - 06:09 AM
icecoldduke, on 23 June 2016 - 04:30 AM, said:
Relatively speaking its a lot is what I'm getting at.
Mighty No. 9 just released and will continue to sour anyone that was still interested in big kickstarters from backing future projects.
900,000 is asking a lot for a remake of a game thats pretty underrated
#36 Posted 23 June 2016 - 06:11 AM
HulkNukem, on 23 June 2016 - 06:09 AM, said:
Not if they want to do the remake at all. You can argue they shouldn't do the remake because its a underrated game, but this is a pretty binary situation. Either they make the money the need to complete the project(which in your mind is a lot of money) or they don't and the project never gets off the ground. Making games is expensive, and its more expensive then it was during the 90's when this game was made.
#37 Posted 23 June 2016 - 09:30 AM
That doesn't change the fact asking 900,000 for a kickstarter is a lot of money, especially considering the current public opinion on kickstarters isn't the same as it was 3 years ago; too many bad developers screwed it for everyone else.
A number of other good developers asked for 1/3 that and still had trouble raising 100,000
I hope it succeeds, I do, but that is still a high price.
This post has been edited by HulkNukem: 23 June 2016 - 09:31 AM
#38 Posted 23 June 2016 - 12:20 PM
HulkNukem, on 23 June 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:
Then according to your logic no games should ever be in kickstarter.
#39 Posted 23 June 2016 - 01:32 PM
#40 Posted 23 June 2016 - 01:43 PM
icecoldduke, on 23 June 2016 - 04:30 AM, said:
Yeah, but you don't need 10 engineers to do a Unity remake of an existing game.
#41 Posted 23 June 2016 - 02:05 PM
TerminX, on 23 June 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:
5 engineers, 5 content, a producer, and a studio? That's a million or more right there.
#42 Posted 23 June 2016 - 02:23 PM
#43 Posted 23 June 2016 - 03:01 PM
http://theesa.ca/wp-..._14_Digital.pdf
In 2012, those numbers looked much better
http://vgsales.wikia...ideo_game_costs
for a Console title, average cost ~ 8 Million
Also, you can't budget for just one year. It may takes a little longer to finish, then what?
This post has been edited by Hank: 23 June 2016 - 03:16 PM
#44 Posted 23 June 2016 - 04:25 PM
#45 Posted 23 June 2016 - 05:58 PM
This post has been edited by StrikerMan780: 23 June 2016 - 06:26 PM
#46 Posted 23 June 2016 - 06:01 PM
#47 Posted 23 June 2016 - 06:09 PM
Hank, on 23 June 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:
Completely agreed, I was just was just making the math easier. My point though still stands, that 1 million for what they are trying to do is a reasonable number IMO.
This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 23 June 2016 - 06:09 PM
#48 Posted 23 June 2016 - 06:21 PM
#49 Posted 23 June 2016 - 06:39 PM
Hendricks266, on 23 June 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:
Yes, the assets are repacked as a ZIP (With .KPF as the extension), for ease of support and ease of making mods. If a port is commercial and on a digital platform, there's no real necessity for it to support files from old CD retail copies. If Turok EX ever goes free someday, he'll likely provide conversion utilities much akin to Doom 64 EX (which converts the Doom 64 ROM into a usable Doom WAD file).
Doom 64 EX and Strife: Veteran Edition are using their native formats, since the support just came naturally thanks to being based on Doom3D and Chocolate Strife respectively, which are open source, and WADs have no shortage of tools that can manipulate them, therefore being easy a fuck to mod.
As for programming by sight, not everything. Take Doom 64 EX for example, he was able to get the game performing 100% like the original, right down to Demo compatibility, quirks in the Macro system, and other assorted bugs, and all that was done without source code. Powerslave EX is much the same way in most cases, and before he got C&D'd, he was well on the way to fixing any inconsistencies people have found. (Such as the gravity, and a few rendering bugs found in some of the later levels).
This post has been edited by StrikerMan780: 23 June 2016 - 06:48 PM
#50 Posted 24 June 2016 - 11:07 AM
StrikerMan780, on 23 June 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:
Doom 64 EX and Strife: Veteran Edition are using their native formats, since the support just came naturally thanks to being based on Doom3D and Chocolate Strife respectively, which are open source, and WADs have no shortage of tools that can manipulate them, therefore being easy a fuck to mod.
Maybe "unpack" was a poor word choice where I could have used "reverse engineer", but I usually associate that term with code, not data. I only meant that he figures out how to rip the levels, art, sounds, etc.
I agree completely with shipping the stuff in a zip, but that's not what I was talking about, nor do I care.
StrikerMan780, on 23 June 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:
I know he actually did reverse engineering on Strife and Doom 64, but I have no evidence to suggest he did on Powerslave EX, Turok EX, or that he is doing it for Blood EX.
This should drive my point home:
Dec 17 17:35:52 <Hendricks266> Kaiser: does the Turok rerelease use Kex? Dec 17 17:36:00 <Kaiser> yup Dec 17 17:36:09 <Hendricks266> no access to the original source code? Dec 17 17:38:35 <Kaiser> at the last minute I did Dec 17 17:38:45 <Kaiser> which helped out a lot Dec 17 17:38:53 <Kaiser> otherwise the AI logic would of been way off
If the AI is not the same, it is not the same game. "Remastered" my ass.
As it stands, Turok EX is still (partial?) game logic transplanted on a custom engine. You're really pushing the Ship of Theseus problem.
#51 Posted 24 June 2016 - 11:38 AM
#52 Posted 24 June 2016 - 11:44 AM
deuxsonic, on 24 June 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:
I disagree, and it depresses me that most people don't care. Story of my life.
For me, back to work.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
#53 Posted 24 June 2016 - 11:46 AM
#54 Posted 24 June 2016 - 12:55 PM
Hendricks266, on 24 June 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:
For me, back to work.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
The difference is, even if it's not exact, I'll be happy with getting to play it again. It's also a lot more likely that a remake would happen than reverse-engineering the whole game. While having the whole game taken apart and ported would be nice, it's a very tall order and Shadow Warrior, which does have available source, still doesn't have a port like EDuke32. With Blood, there's no source. I'd say it's enough work reverse-engineering a device driver, much less a game. Turok EX isn't exactly Turok (Turok's stuff reassembled in a different engine), but it was close enough that I had fun playing it without feeling like it was unfaithful to the original.
This post has been edited by deuxsonic: 24 June 2016 - 01:07 PM
#55 Posted 24 June 2016 - 03:48 PM
Quote
#56 Posted 25 June 2016 - 09:17 AM
StrikerMan780, on 23 June 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:
All the information I can find point out that the Kex engine is directly derived from DOOM 64 EX. Regardless of the engine being what or not, my biggest issue still with his demakes is that they're estimations at best.
#57 Posted 25 June 2016 - 10:48 AM
#58 Posted 25 June 2016 - 10:49 PM
Hendricks266, on 24 June 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:
I agree completely with shipping the stuff in a zip, but that's not what I was talking about, nor do I care.
I know he actually did reverse engineering on Strife and Doom 64, but I have no evidence to suggest he did on Powerslave EX, Turok EX, or that he is doing it for Blood EX.
This should drive my point home:
Dec 17 17:35:52 <Hendricks266> Kaiser: does the Turok rerelease use Kex? Dec 17 17:36:00 <Kaiser> yup Dec 17 17:36:09 <Hendricks266> no access to the original source code? Dec 17 17:38:35 <Kaiser> at the last minute I did Dec 17 17:38:45 <Kaiser> which helped out a lot Dec 17 17:38:53 <Kaiser> otherwise the AI logic would of been way off
If the AI is not the same, it is not the same game. "Remastered" my ass.
As it stands, Turok EX is still (partial?) game logic transplanted on a custom engine. You're really pushing the Ship of Theseus problem.
Nowhere in that conversation do I see him saying that he does everything by eye. Ever thought he may have just drawn the wrong conclusions about the AI with the disassembly, and noticed just how much it was off when he got the official code? That kind of shit happens in the world of reverse engineering games. I mean fuck... I remember the early days of Strife support in Vavoom and ZDoom, everything was quite significantly off for some time despite the amount of effort that went into it. There were things that were missed, and things thought to be correct that weren't quite.
The end product has been spot-on, thanks to him getting the source. It turned out right, thus I'm happy. Had the AI not been right on release, through bug reports and taking more time to understand the disassembly, I imagine it would have been taken care of in a patch, just like how people reported a very, very small inconsistency in Powerslave EX's gravity. Reverse-engineered code isn't usually spot-on on the first time when it comes to game logic, some guessing may be necessary until you decipher the assembly (I speak from personal experience here, during my attempts to reverse-engineer Terminal Velocity before I got the sources. AI and Rendering are the two most difficult parts to even make remote sense of). In Powerslave EX, nothing really seemed to be off with the AI, which is a pretty significant feat all things considered. Played just like the PSX release (during my playthrough I went back and forth between EX and the original on my PSP).
Daedolon, on 25 June 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:
Kex 2 and Kex 3 aren't Doom-based. The only things Powerslave EX and Turok EX inherit from Doom 64 EX are Rendering, Sound, UI and file handling, like I mentioned before. Logic is separate.
They may not be source ports (without source code, they can't be.) But demakes? Are you kidding me? That's rather insulting. I really beginning to question if there's some kind of personal vendetta thing going on here, or insanely autistic levels of anal-retentiveness.
This post has been edited by StrikerMan780: 25 June 2016 - 11:16 PM
#60 Posted 26 June 2016 - 04:49 AM
Lunick, on 26 June 2016 - 12:24 AM, said:
They're just cranky. Any time I like something they come out of the woodwork and stomp all over it.