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System Shock: Enhanced Edition released on GOG

User is online   Daedolon 

  • Ancient Blood God

#31

They just said the game is ready and will be launching in 2 weeks. Now they backed out and want a million? wtf
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#32

View PostHulkNukem, on 22 June 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Thats a lot of digits

Not really, a million pays for about 10 engineers for one year. Depending on the scope of what they want to do..a million isn't a lot of money when starting a game project. In reality they should narrow there scope a bit, mostly because the expected amount of units sold will not exceeed 100,000 units.

This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 23 June 2016 - 04:32 AM

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#33

Meh. Double-Fine Adventure AND Psychonauts 2 made it to 3 million. If there are enough people who want it (I can't imagine there aren't) it'll easy raise far more than this amount.

This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 23 June 2016 - 05:10 AM

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#34

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 23 June 2016 - 05:09 AM, said:

Meh. Double-Fine Adventure AND Psychonauts 2 made it to 3 million. If there are enough people who want it (I can't imagine there aren't) it'll easy raise far more than this amount.

I honestly hope they don't. It's actually beneficial for game studios to have a finite amount of money to work with, that will barely let the project get by. This way the upper management can't push for more features that inevitably over complicate the project, which would result in a pile of shit when its released. Less money = narrower scope = better product.
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User is online   HulkNukem 

#35

View Posticecoldduke, on 23 June 2016 - 04:30 AM, said:

Not really, a million pays for about 10 engineers for one year. Depending on the scope of what they want to do..a million isn't a lot of money when starting a game project. In reality they should narrow there scope a bit, mostly because the expected amount of units sold will not exceeed 100,000 units.


Relatively speaking its a lot is what I'm getting at.
Mighty No. 9 just released and will continue to sour anyone that was still interested in big kickstarters from backing future projects.
900,000 is asking a lot for a remake of a game thats pretty underrated
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#36

View PostHulkNukem, on 23 June 2016 - 06:09 AM, said:

900,000 is asking a lot for a remake of a game thats pretty underrated

Not if they want to do the remake at all. You can argue they shouldn't do the remake because its a underrated game, but this is a pretty binary situation. Either they make the money the need to complete the project(which in your mind is a lot of money) or they don't and the project never gets off the ground. Making games is expensive, and its more expensive then it was during the 90's when this game was made.
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User is online   HulkNukem 

#37

Yeah, no shit games are expensive to make.
That doesn't change the fact asking 900,000 for a kickstarter is a lot of money, especially considering the current public opinion on kickstarters isn't the same as it was 3 years ago; too many bad developers screwed it for everyone else.
A number of other good developers asked for 1/3 that and still had trouble raising 100,000
I hope it succeeds, I do, but that is still a high price.

This post has been edited by HulkNukem: 23 June 2016 - 09:31 AM

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#38

View PostHulkNukem, on 23 June 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

That doesn't change the fact asking 900,000 for a kickstarter is a lot of money.

Then according to your logic no games should ever be in kickstarter.
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#39

I'd rather Kickstarter campaigns ask for a realistic amount of money than run out of money and have to be cancelled.
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User is online   TerminX 

  • el fundador

  #40

View Posticecoldduke, on 23 June 2016 - 04:30 AM, said:

Not really, a million pays for about 10 engineers for one year. Depending on the scope of what they want to do..a million isn't a lot of money when starting a game project. In reality they should narrow there scope a bit, mostly because the expected amount of units sold will not exceeed 100,000 units.

Yeah, but you don't need 10 engineers to do a Unity remake of an existing game.
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#41

View PostTerminX, on 23 June 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Yeah, but you don't need 10 engineers to do a Unity remake of an existing game.

5 engineers, 5 content, a producer, and a studio? That's a million or more right there.
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User is online   TerminX 

  • el fundador

  #42

You don't need 5 engineers to do a Unity remake of an existing game.
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User is offline   Hank 

#43

The average cost for to make a video game, console, in 2015, is 17 Million, Canadian Dollars
http://theesa.ca/wp-..._14_Digital.pdf

In 2012, those numbers looked much better
http://vgsales.wikia...ideo_game_costs
for a Console title, average cost ~ 8 Million

Also, you can't budget for just one year. It may takes a little longer to finish, then what?

This post has been edited by Hank: 23 June 2016 - 03:16 PM

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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

#44

Night Dive already only needs one engineer (Kaiser) to do Doom/Kex Engine demakes of existing games.
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User is offline   Striker 

  • Auramancer

#45

Kex Engine != Doom Engine. It's entirely separate from Doom Engine. It's a modular platform, that provides rendering, sound, a user interface, and a file system. The rest would be made from scratch or ported. Doom 64 EX was originally derived from Doom3D, Strife: Veteran Edition is based on Chocolate Strife, Powerslave and Turok EX were basically done from scratch.

This post has been edited by StrikerMan780: 23 June 2016 - 06:26 PM

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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

#46

Thank you for clearing that up. However, my point stands. Kaiser unpacks the game assets and reprograms the rest by sight.
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#47

View PostHank, on 23 June 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Also, you can't budget for just one year. It may takes a little longer to finish, then what?

Completely agreed, I was just was just making the math easier. My point though still stands, that 1 million for what they are trying to do is a reasonable number IMO.

This post has been edited by icecoldduke: 23 June 2016 - 06:09 PM

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User is online   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#48

It might be reasonable for what they're trying to do, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's reasonable to ask. They could be fully justified yet the current situation with crowd-funding simply isn't the ideal method to obtain it.
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User is offline   Striker 

  • Auramancer

#49

View PostHendricks266, on 23 June 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

Thank you for clearing that up. However, my point stands. Kaiser unpacks the game assets and reprograms the rest by sight.

Yes, the assets are repacked as a ZIP (With .KPF as the extension), for ease of support and ease of making mods. If a port is commercial and on a digital platform, there's no real necessity for it to support files from old CD retail copies. If Turok EX ever goes free someday, he'll likely provide conversion utilities much akin to Doom 64 EX (which converts the Doom 64 ROM into a usable Doom WAD file).

Doom 64 EX and Strife: Veteran Edition are using their native formats, since the support just came naturally thanks to being based on Doom3D and Chocolate Strife respectively, which are open source, and WADs have no shortage of tools that can manipulate them, therefore being easy a fuck to mod.

As for programming by sight, not everything. Take Doom 64 EX for example, he was able to get the game performing 100% like the original, right down to Demo compatibility, quirks in the Macro system, and other assorted bugs, and all that was done without source code. Powerslave EX is much the same way in most cases, and before he got C&D'd, he was well on the way to fixing any inconsistencies people have found. (Such as the gravity, and a few rendering bugs found in some of the later levels).

This post has been edited by StrikerMan780: 23 June 2016 - 06:48 PM

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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

#50

View PostStrikerMan780, on 23 June 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

Yes, the assets are repacked as a ZIP (With .KPF as the extension), for ease of support and ease of making mods. If a port is commercial and on a digital platform, there's no real necessity for it to support files from old CD retail copies. If Turok EX ever goes free someday, he'll likely provide conversion utilities much akin to Doom 64 EX (which converts the Doom 64 ROM into a usable Doom WAD file).

Doom 64 EX and Strife: Veteran Edition are using their native formats, since the support just came naturally thanks to being based on Doom3D and Chocolate Strife respectively, which are open source, and WADs have no shortage of tools that can manipulate them, therefore being easy a fuck to mod.

Maybe "unpack" was a poor word choice where I could have used "reverse engineer", but I usually associate that term with code, not data. I only meant that he figures out how to rip the levels, art, sounds, etc.

I agree completely with shipping the stuff in a zip, but that's not what I was talking about, nor do I care.

View PostStrikerMan780, on 23 June 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

As for programming by sight, not everything. Take Doom 64 EX for example, he was able to get the game performing 100% like the original, right down to Demo compatibility, quirks in the Macro system, and other assorted bugs, and all that was done without source code. Powerslave EX is much the same way in most cases, and before he got C&D'd, he was well on the way to fixing any inconsistencies people have found. (Such as the gravity, and a few rendering bugs found in some of the later levels).

I know he actually did reverse engineering on Strife and Doom 64, but I have no evidence to suggest he did on Powerslave EX, Turok EX, or that he is doing it for Blood EX.

This should drive my point home:

Dec 17 17:35:52 <Hendricks266>	Kaiser: does the Turok rerelease use Kex?
Dec 17 17:36:00 <Kaiser>	yup
Dec 17 17:36:09 <Hendricks266>	no access to the original source code?
Dec 17 17:38:35 <Kaiser>	at the last minute I did
Dec 17 17:38:45 <Kaiser>	which helped out a lot
Dec 17 17:38:53 <Kaiser>	otherwise the AI logic would of been way off


If the AI is not the same, it is not the same game. "Remastered" my ass.

As it stands, Turok EX is still (partial?) game logic transplanted on a custom engine. You're really pushing the Ship of Theseus problem.
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User is offline   deuxsonic 

#51

That's why I call them remakes now. Close enough for me. Having the Blood one completed would be nice.
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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • Weaponized Autism

#52

View Postdeuxsonic, on 24 June 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Close enough for me.

I disagree, and it depresses me that most people don't care. Story of my life.

For me, back to work.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
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#53

There are reasons why the game being "remade" was good. Like Goldeneye. The remake is not bad, really, but it is completely different and totally misses the point of why the original was good. Sure, it tries to throw in some callbacks for the nostalgics, but Nintendo capitalizing on the fact that we're getting a "new Goldeneye game" really misled people. I will always hate Nintendo for not allowing Rare to go ahead with that Remastered port for XBLA like they did with Perfect Dark. The screenshots looked so good.....that game could have lived again.
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User is offline   deuxsonic 

#54

View PostHendricks266, on 24 June 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

I disagree, and it depresses me that most people don't care. Story of my life.

For me, back to work.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw


The difference is, even if it's not exact, I'll be happy with getting to play it again. It's also a lot more likely that a remake would happen than reverse-engineering the whole game. While having the whole game taken apart and ported would be nice, it's a very tall order and Shadow Warrior, which does have available source, still doesn't have a port like EDuke32. With Blood, there's no source. I'd say it's enough work reverse-engineering a device driver, much less a game. Turok EX isn't exactly Turok (Turok's stuff reassembled in a different engine), but it was close enough that I had fun playing it without feeling like it was unfaithful to the original.

This post has been edited by deuxsonic: 24 June 2016 - 01:07 PM

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User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#55

There's going to be a playable demo in the next few days.

Quote

When the crowdfunding campaign starts at 12 p.m. PT next Tuesday, June 28, nostalgic backers and the genuinely curious alike will have a chance to actually play System Shock themselves. A short demo of the Windows PC version will be made available to anyone through Steam, GOG and Humble the same day that the Kickstarter opens.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6691925/20160613222205_1.0.jpg
https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6691959/ssr_ks_bundle-v3.0.jpg
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User is online   Daedolon 

  • Ancient Blood God

#56

View PostStrikerMan780, on 23 June 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

Kex Engine != Doom Engine. It's entirely separate from Doom Engine.


All the information I can find point out that the Kex engine is directly derived from DOOM 64 EX. Regardless of the engine being what or not, my biggest issue still with his demakes is that they're estimations at best.
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User is offline   deuxsonic 

#57

Yes, the Kex engine's origins are his DOOM 64 port, which involved a rewrite of the Doom3D port and fixes from Boom and MBF, customized to use the DOOM 64 data. That was Kex 1. From there he's added onto it. Skybox support, for example, was something I wanted since DOOM 64 allows you to play with mouselook, even better than vanilla DOOM 64, so it needed skyboxes for the skies to not look weird. Kex 2 was going to be what the remake of Turok used (which was going to have a powerful scripting system and not necessarily stick to the original game but allow things that weren't originally possible) which he abandoned (I think this is what Powerslave EX uses as well) and the one he did which is faithful to the original with Night Dive is Kex 3. It started as one of the greatest gifts to the gaming world ever, DOOM 64, a game I loved as a kid, playing on the PC, and he's extended the technology from there.
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User is offline   Striker 

  • Auramancer

#58

View PostHendricks266, on 24 June 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

Maybe "unpack" was a poor word choice where I could have used "reverse engineer", but I usually associate that term with code, not data. I only meant that he figures out how to rip the levels, art, sounds, etc.

I agree completely with shipping the stuff in a zip, but that's not what I was talking about, nor do I care.


I know he actually did reverse engineering on Strife and Doom 64, but I have no evidence to suggest he did on Powerslave EX, Turok EX, or that he is doing it for Blood EX.

This should drive my point home:

Dec 17 17:35:52 <Hendricks266>	Kaiser: does the Turok rerelease use Kex?
Dec 17 17:36:00 <Kaiser>	yup
Dec 17 17:36:09 <Hendricks266>	no access to the original source code?
Dec 17 17:38:35 <Kaiser>	at the last minute I did
Dec 17 17:38:45 <Kaiser>	which helped out a lot
Dec 17 17:38:53 <Kaiser>	otherwise the AI logic would of been way off


If the AI is not the same, it is not the same game. "Remastered" my ass.

As it stands, Turok EX is still (partial?) game logic transplanted on a custom engine. You're really pushing the Ship of Theseus problem.

Nowhere in that conversation do I see him saying that he does everything by eye. Ever thought he may have just drawn the wrong conclusions about the AI with the disassembly, and noticed just how much it was off when he got the official code? That kind of shit happens in the world of reverse engineering games. I mean fuck... I remember the early days of Strife support in Vavoom and ZDoom, everything was quite significantly off for some time despite the amount of effort that went into it. There were things that were missed, and things thought to be correct that weren't quite.

The end product has been spot-on, thanks to him getting the source. It turned out right, thus I'm happy. Had the AI not been right on release, through bug reports and taking more time to understand the disassembly, I imagine it would have been taken care of in a patch, just like how people reported a very, very small inconsistency in Powerslave EX's gravity. Reverse-engineered code isn't usually spot-on on the first time when it comes to game logic, some guessing may be necessary until you decipher the assembly (I speak from personal experience here, during my attempts to reverse-engineer Terminal Velocity before I got the sources. AI and Rendering are the two most difficult parts to even make remote sense of). In Powerslave EX, nothing really seemed to be off with the AI, which is a pretty significant feat all things considered. Played just like the PSX release (during my playthrough I went back and forth between EX and the original on my PSP).

View PostDaedolon, on 25 June 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

All the information I can find point out that the Kex engine is directly derived from DOOM 64 EX. Regardless of the engine being what or not, my biggest issue still with his demakes is that they're estimations at best.

Kex 2 and Kex 3 aren't Doom-based. The only things Powerslave EX and Turok EX inherit from Doom 64 EX are Rendering, Sound, UI and file handling, like I mentioned before. Logic is separate.

They may not be source ports (without source code, they can't be.) But demakes? Are you kidding me? That's rather insulting. I really beginning to question if there's some kind of personal vendetta thing going on here, or insanely autistic levels of anal-retentiveness.

This post has been edited by StrikerMan780: 25 June 2016 - 11:16 PM

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User is online   Lunick 

  • Snazzy Ex Tazzy

#59

No praising Kaiser allowed
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User is offline   deuxsonic 

#60

View PostLunick, on 26 June 2016 - 12:24 AM, said:

No praising Kaiser allowed


They're just cranky. Any time I like something they come out of the woodwork and stomp all over it. https://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif
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