[MusicallyInspired]

Sweet. Then perhaps I'll be able to get one yet. I will regret not getting the old box design and the floppy USB drive, though. I had thought it would be the same package just with less feelies. But the change makes sense.

[Master O]

Question for the Eduke32 devs:

After August 15th, what will be the statuses of the other games to be added to Eduke32? For example, Redneck Rampage and Shadow Warrior?

Also, will Ion Fury be natively supported in regular standalone eduke32 builds after that date?

[Jimmy]

TerminX, on 17 July 2019 - 06:55 PM, said:

You can still do Duke3D-style levels in IF, though. Most of the effects originally used in Duke3D work exactly the same as they always did and nothing prevents anyone from making maps that only use those simpler effects.

Remember, AHB and Levelord made the levels in World Tour using Mapster32 and it had been 20 years since they had touched the original DOS version of the editor. I think you are underestimating what people who are determined to make something can do.

You aren't wrong about the interface in general, however. Maybe if IF sells well enough that making another game on the engine seems worthwhile we can put some of the revenue toward a UI rework.

I think this attitude people have is largely nonsense anyhow. Duke Nukem 3D is still the easiest game in the world to mod for and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. The only real difficulties arise because of things that are undocumented. That's our only real setback. I used BUILD when I was like ten years old, and I'm not a genius by any means. There are quality of life improvements that could be made across the board but with like ten minutes of research you can get to work modding this game in every way imaginable.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yeah, even despite not having really truly mastered the Mapster32 controls to this day, I can still whip up something after a long hiatus of never using it that would look way better and be far easier to make than if I loaded up Hammer and had a go at it. Or Unreal. Or Unity (I've never tried it). Or whatever Quake/2 uses nowadays (Hammer as well?).

[Micky C]

BlitZ, on 18 July 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

Duke Nukem 3D is still the easiest game in the world to mod for and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.

What about Doom? Although I note you specifically said modding, not mapping, and I'm not too familiar with Doom's modding workflow.

I thought a lot of the tools available for Duke modding, such as art file editors, are fairly old and outdated? Not to mention, aren't there lots of little hard-coded issues which can make things more complicated? I'm not sure how far the eduke standalone builds go to address this.

[Jimmy]

How are you going to try to refute me when you don't even know what you're talking about? I've modded for both games. Duke3D is still easier despite lack of documentation and "old and outdated" tools. Just because something is old doesn't mean it doesn't work.

[Micky C]

Because the discussion has predominantly been about mapping, and I would have thought that mapping for Doom would have been faster and easier due to the simpler engine. Creating a mod requires either additional sets of skills, or coordination with those who have them, which makes it a less straightforward process. The discussion with mapping was in regards to something something you can jump straight into easily and quickly.

[Jimmy]

Modding includes mapping. Doom Builder is way more complicated, it just has more documentation. I'll take Mapster any day of the week.

Also, guys I just noticed that the main page of the forums is still advertising Ion Maiden.

[The Kins]

BlitZ, on 18 July 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

Duke Nukem 3D is still the easiest game in the world to mod for and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.

This is normally the bit where I launch into a 20-minute rant about how CON scripting is an abberation towards God, but the bit where there are only like three people on Earth who still actively do it probably says enough.

BlitZ, on 18 July 2019 - 08:04 PM, said:

Modding includes mapping. Doom Builder is way more complicated, it just has more documentation. I'll take Mapster any day of the week.

GZDoom Builder is quite lovely and easy to use, as can be seen by its prodigious output, but BUILD/MAPEDIT/MAPSTER32/etc would be just as effective (possibly more so in some cases) if it weren't for the acknowledged issues that come with having an interface straight out of 1995. The bigger issue, frankly, is adding new art to the game. Existing .ART tools kind of suck, and juggling different copies of TILES014 and TILES015.ART for different maps is painful.

To be fair, though, if you use a tool for however many decades you become used to (and somewhat blind to) certain usability issues that you learn to work around or live with.

[necroslut]

The Kins, on 18 July 2019 - 11:23 PM, said:

This is normally the bit where I launch into a 20-minute rant about how CON scripting is an abberation towards God, but the bit where there are only like three people on Earth who still actively do it probably says enough.

GZDoom Builder is quite lovely and easy to use, as can be seen by its prodigious output, but BUILD/MAPEDIT/MAPSTER32/etc would be just as effective (possibly more so in some cases) if it weren't for the acknowledged issues that come with having an interface straight out of 1995. The bigger issue, frankly, is adding new art to the game. Existing .ART tools kind of suck, and juggling different copies of TILES014 and TILES015.ART for different maps is painful.

To be fair, though, if you use a tool for however many decades you become used to (and somewhat blind to) certain usability issues that you learn to work around or live with.

With EDuke32 you can use per-map art, so you don't have to juggle art files the same way anymore. Makes distribution easier, if nothing else.
Also, yeah, Mapster/Build is really not hard to use, but I guess it looking like a DOS program could make people think it's way more complicated than it really is.

[Master O]

BlitZ, on 18 July 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

I think this attitude people have is largely nonsense anyhow. Duke Nukem 3D is still the easiest game in the world to mod for and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. The only real difficulties arise because of things that are undocumented. That's our only real setback. I used BUILD when I was like ten years old, and I'm not a genius by any means. There are quality of life improvements that could be made across the board but with like ten minutes of research you can get to work modding this game in every way imaginable.

https://www.doomworld.com/cacowards/

https://www.doomworld.com/10years/

[Jimmy]

Just because Doom modding is robust does not make it easier. The learning curve is much steeper. CON is so easy a monkey could do it.

[Master O]

BlitZ, on 19 July 2019 - 07:37 AM, said:

Just because Doom modding is robust does not make it easier. The learning curve is much steeper. CON is so easy a monkey could do it.

*imagines the next Geico commercial spoofing that.*

[Tea Monster]

Duke 3D started off with a WYSIWYG editor from shipping. Doom only got one later through the work of community coders.
Although you had to learn a ton of arcane key commands, placing sprites and moving sectors around was relatively child's play and you got immediate feedback as to what your level looked like and if it was usable by the player.
If you printed out Mr. Bishop's Build Guide, then the 'Enter' key was your gateway to a new universe.

[Master O]

Tea Monster, on 19 July 2019 - 10:24 AM, said:

Duke 3D started off with a WYSIWYG editor from shipping. Doom only got one later through the work of community coders.
Although you had to learn a ton of arcane key commands, placing sprites and moving sectors around was relatively child's play and you got immediate feedback as to what your level looked like and if it was usable by the player.
If you printed out Mr. Bishop's Build Guide, then the 'Enter' key was your gateway to a new universe.

It sounds like the Build Engine needs an open-source editor like that...

[Mark]

Maybe in another 5-10 years when this current crop of modders have moved on and the community almost dies. Then someone can spark interest for a whole new generation of modders with their latest and greatest new editor. I can't see myself ever trying to learn a new editor after so many years on Mapster32.

I would prefer to keep patching on small tidbits of features and more importantly, get caught up on all the documentation.

[necroslut]

Master O, on 19 July 2019 - 12:35 PM, said:

It sounds like the Build Engine needs an open-source editor like that...

Why? Mapster32 already is open source. I'm sure it would be way less work to redo its interface than making a new editor from scratch.

[TerminX]

Yeah, I would rather retrofit a new interface on top of Mapster32 than have an entirely new editor, tbh. There's a ton of special-purpose code in the editor already that would be a nightmare to reimplement and debug all over again.

[The Kins]

BlitZ, on 19 July 2019 - 07:37 AM, said:

CON is so easy a monkey could do it.

So why aren't they?

[MusicallyInspired]

I printed out the Build DOCs years ago when we first got the game. Enjoyed just messing around with it. I never ever did anything with CONs (outside of USER.CON edits) but it was so easy to pick up once you had all the controls and basic instructions right there in front of you. Also the ST, SE, and ZOO guide maps did wonders for showing you how to do specific things. Doom didn't come with any of that.

Also, I mentioned this before, but my dad, a pastor, was spearheading a new building project for our church at the time and used the blueprints to design the church in Duke3D with Build to show people how it would look. He initially bought a 3D House Designer program for Win95 but it was trash and he abandoned it for Duke3D when I suggested it. Duke3D/Build was so much more convincing and, honestly, smoother. I helped him with the sector effectors for the door effects and whatnot (I also put an atomic health in the baptismal tank XD).

[Hendricks266]

necroslut, on 19 July 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:

Why? Mapster32 already is open source. I'm sure it would be way less work to redo its interface than making a new editor from scratch.

This.

[Jimmy]

The Kins, on 19 July 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

So why aren't they?

Todd Replogle coded the entire game!

[TerminX]

Size of Ion Fury versus Half-Life.

[HulkNukem]

Is Ion Fury one huge connected progression or does it split up like in Half-Life (like when you get knocked out and wake up somewhere else not directly connected to where you were)?

Actually dont answer that

[Kyanos]

If you are answering questions I'm damn curious to know what the multiplayer situation is? Deathmatch on day one? Any other modes? Will EDuke32 see client server soon? I'm trying to be patient I swear it!

[TerminX]

Multiplayer will be in a post-release patch sometime down the road.

[Zaxx]

Photonic, on 23 July 2019 - 03:50 PM, said:

Any other modes?

I'm hoping for Capture the Randy. It's basically CTF but with a twist: there are two teams of GDF officers who have to capture Randy Pitchford for various crimes ha committed. You have to pick up Randy who spawns at the center of the map and you have to carry him to your team's jail cell but of course since Randy's a generally annoying person he slows down your movement and tries to obscure your vision while you're carrying him (and he's singing the bigot song of course). To counter this you can bitch slap him. The first team to capture Randy three times wins!

[HulkNukem]

If theres no coop I sure hope someone mods it in quick

[Radar]

Photonic, on 23 July 2019 - 03:50 PM, said:

If you are answering questions I'm damn curious to know what the multiplayer situation is? Deathmatch on day one? Any other modes? Will EDuke32 see client server soon? I'm trying to be patient I swear it!

HulkNukem, on 23 July 2019 - 07:58 PM, said:

If theres no coop I sure hope someone mods it in quick

Maybe I just can't read the revision history right, but I don't see any recent EDuke32 updates pertaining to the netcode. Keep expectations low on this one.

[Master O]

Zaxx, on 23 July 2019 - 04:57 PM, said:

I'm hoping for Capture the Randy. It's basically CTF but with a twist: there are two teams of GDF officers who have to capture Randy Pitchford for various crimes ha committed. You have to pick up Randy who spawns at the center of the map and you have to carry him to your team's jail cell but of course since Randy's a generally annoying person he slows down your movement and tries to obscure your vision while you're carrying him (and he's singing the bigot song of course). To counter this you can bitch slap him. The first team to capture Randy three times wins!

No, one of the boss fights in Ion Fury will be against a giant mecha chick named "Sandy Bitchford" and you have to blow her up. (joking)