[Forge]

oasiz, on 24 April 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

For 1, wait for the next update

i have the 3dr version. I'm still waiting for the first update [/sarcasm]

[TerminX]

I'm going to try and make sure that never happens again.

[MusicallyInspired]

3DR's bungling aside,you guys are doing great with the updates.

[petrus]

Idea: Make bind "G" "gamefunc_Bowling_Bombs" a default setting? (so it's both on 6 and G)

[Kyanos]

Every so often I need to order something or other online, so I buy a prepaid credit card coz I don't use that shit normally. I've got a few purchases to make this weekend and I'm gonna put an extra couple bucks on the card to buy Ion Maiden too, can't wait.

Also wanted to say to the guys at Voidpoint that I'm happy for them. I hope this gets big and EDuke32 is used for many more games. Great work!

Spoiler

Also also, in this post gamergate world I've been wondering just how good Hendricks must be in bed, reviewers love him Ion Maiden. jk

[Mark]

Replying to Drek's spoiler... I guess we'll never know. Eduke32 is his mistress and she's not talking.

[Shodanbot]

TerminX, on 23 April 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

It was always supposed to be a Duke3D reference, but some morons thought it was a political statement so I changed it around. The intended meaning is the exact same now as it was before.

TerminX, I understand why you changed it and certainly don't blame you or your team. The last thing you want as a start-up business is "controversy" over some daffodils' misunderstanding of a reference. I may as well have a wee rant anyway, not at you, but about the daffodils.

One of my hobbies, out of a selection of strange hobbies, is reading court transcripts. Especially transcripts of criminal prosecutions. Well, a few years ago I read one particular case that will stick with me for the rest of my life, or at least so long as my mind remains sharp. It was a rape case involving a child. The relevant part of the transcript was from an expert witness for the prosecution: the physician who examined and treated the victim as she was brought in. The physician explained the victim's wounds in appalling detail. The victim, the 3-year-old daughter of the accused, had been raped so badly that it caused a tear from her vagina through her perineum until that tear met with her exterior sphincter. But what struck me was the horrifying thought of her examination and treatment of that poor child as she was brought into the ER ward. Not her first-hand account in print and spoken word for the benefit of the investigation and prosecution -- there's always something lost in both.

The thought of that rape case horrified and offended me, understandably, but the emotional (and physical) constitution of the physician as she explained the victim's wounds with unemotional professionalism was something to be admired. Certainly beyond my ability. So when I hear/read of delicate doilies who get offended by nothing but their own tedious neuroses, I think of that physician and I imagine them in her place.

[Hank]

from Russia with Love

https://kg-portal.ru...ija-ion-maiden/
(Best I can do with Google Translate)
As you can see, all the best features of shooters of the 90s proudly show off, in Ion Maiden.

[Jblade]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/255521258

If anybody's a fan of Yahtzee's stuff he just streamed some Ion Maiden (after finishing Black Mesa) which is cool to see it get exposure on a relatively big stream

[NNC]

I’m wondering this Candy is dandy, McMonster, Salt and fat stuff gets its own exposure in the final game. Some slight un-PC jokes about the unhealthy americunts would be priceless.

[Danukem]

Jblade, on 29 April 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/255521258

If anybody's a fan of Yahtzee's stuff he just streamed some Ion Maiden (after finishing Black Mesa) which is cool to see it get exposure on a relatively big stream

I just started watching and already I noticed something that VP should take note of. Yahtzee wants to quick save, and immediately he looks for a quick save option in the keyboard setup. When it's not there, he concludes that the game has no quick save function. This is understandable and it's something that has bothered me before about Eduke32 but never mentioned. The same applies to any of the function key commands that are not configurable from the menu.

[TerminX]

Nancsi, on 29 April 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

I’m wondering this Candy is dandy, McMonster, Salt and fat stuff gets its own exposure in the final game. Some slight un-PC jokes about the unhealthy americunts would be priceless.

You know, I myself am definitely an unhealthy Americunt, but my attitude here is more or less "anything goes." The easily offended are not our target market.

[Zaxx]

Trooper Dan, on 29 April 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

I just started watching and already I noticed something that VP should take note of. Yahtzee wants to quick save, and immediately he looks for a quick save option in the keyboard setup. When it's not there, he concludes that the game has no quick save function. This is understandable and it's something that has bothered me before about Eduke32 but never mentioned. The same applies to any of the function key commands that are not configurable from the menu.

To be fair the "READ ME!" menu options has the information about quicksaving, the problem is that nobody reads that. Maybe it would be a good idea to display that screen when someone starts a new game (or at least display a flashing message that says "Press F1 for whatever").

[oasiz]

Zaxx, on 29 April 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

To be fair the "READ ME!" menu options has the information about quicksaving, the problem is that nobody reads that. Maybe it would be a good idea to display that screen when someone starts a new game (or at least display a flashing message that says "Press F1 for whatever").

But we already do that

[Danukem]

oasiz, on 29 April 2018 - 11:29 AM, said:

But we already do that

The fundamental point here is that when players go to "keyboard setup", they will expect to see listed all the functions you can do with the keyboard. All the messages in the world in other places aren't going to remedy that. Even having the function key ones grayed out but still listed would be an improvement.

[oasiz]

Oh definitely, I agree there. I think the main issue is that those keys are hardcoded I believe. So it's simply an oversight on not having them there as by logic, non-bindable screen shouldn't be there.

[Zaxx]

oasiz, on 29 April 2018 - 11:29 AM, said:

But we already do that

Yeah but if you're playing the game on a nice big monitor the top left corner won't really be part of your peripheral vision so you will miss the message and from the looks of it a lot of people do not read the help page. Personally I find that super wierd since I loved reading those story bits back in the day but in a lot of reviews I see issues that come from the reviewer not reading the help screen. For example DWTerminator has no idea how headshots work because he didn't read the fuckin' help screen:

So I think the message should be a bit more intrusive, it should be flashing and it should be centered. Hell, maybe you could even do what Serious Sam 3 does if you've not been using the quick save feature for while:

[Danukem]

I'm pretty sure the devs are trying to avoid that kind of modern hand-holding, which is why they still don't have a message about pressing the use key to open vents, even though most players who haven't read this thread will shoot vents (e.g. Yahtzee does that too in the video).

So I'm just going to repeat myself and say that the non-editable keyboard controls could be listed in the keyboard setup as grayed out. Also, my more general complaints about the keyboard setup screen that I posted in this thread after the initial release still stand.

[Micky C]

Trooper Dan, on 29 April 2018 - 03:07 PM, said:

non-editable keyboard controls could be listed in the keyboard setup as grayed out.

I was also going to suggest something like this after hearing about the problem. I'd give a 'vote' to this.

[Zaxx]

Trooper Dan, on 29 April 2018 - 03:07 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure the devs are trying to avoid that kind of modern hand-holding

Telling you about the game's controls and basic features is not hand-holding though.

[necroslut]

There's only so much you can do when it comes to protecting people from their own stupidity and laziness without interfering with the experience of the rest. I can see it being a problem with streamers/reviewers though, when their stupidity influences others opinions.

[MusicallyInspired]

Trooper Dan, on 29 April 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

I just started watching and already I noticed something that VP should take note of. Yahtzee wants to quick save, and immediately he looks for a quick save option in the keyboard setup. When it's not there, he concludes that the game has no quick save function. This is understandable and it's something that has bothered me before about Eduke32 but never mentioned. The same applies to any of the function key commands that are not configurable from the menu.

So there IS a quicksave in Ion Maiden? I thought it was weird that it wasn't there when it is in EDuke32.

[Loke]

MusicallyInspired, on 30 April 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

So there IS a quicksave in Ion Maiden? I thought it was weird that it wasn't there when it is in EDuke32.

Yeah, you just need to pick a save slot first. Press F6 for quicksave.

[Zaxx]

necroslut, on 30 April 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

There's only so much you can do when it comes to protecting people from their own stupidity and laziness without interfering with the experience of the rest. I can see it being a problem with streamers/reviewers though, when their stupidity influences others opinions.

It's easy to write this off as reviewers being stupid but I remember how I played FPS when I was a kid: I was not a tech savvy child and my parents never had the slightest idea about computers so I learned about PCs absolutely by myself as the years went on and I've been playing FPS for years before I discovered the magic of quick saving (this guy completed Serious Sam with manual saves as a kid! ). So stuff like this might be obvious for us these days but remember: there are people who grew up on consoles and only started flocking to PC these days thanks to Steam and hardware becoming more powerful and easier to handle than ever. To people like them pressing F1 or F6 might not be obvious since they grew up with a mindset governed by controllers and fixed save positions.

[MrFlibble]

What about an optional tutorial? That would help explain all the controls, including non-obvious stuff like pressing use on vents, in a non-intrusive way that does not disrupt actual gameplay.

That, or encourage users to compile, read and pass around unofficial FAQs, like in the good old days

[Perro Seco]

If the game has a save game menu, then I don't understand why there should be a quick save option or autosaves. It makes dying more like a joke, but I guess there's not much to do to avoid frustration on today's lazy kids.

[Sanek]

That's amazing how you can talk with eduke guys like this and get away with it...I guess my case is not as bad as I thought.

Back to Ion Maiden...

Perro Seco, on 30 April 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

If the game has a save game menu, then I don't understand why there should be a quick save option or autosaves. It makes dying more like a joke, but I guess there's not much to do to avoid frustration on today's lazy kids.

I don't think that "today's lazy kids" is a game's target audience, since no CoD-era punk will waste his time on a game with ancient graphics like this.
The ones who'll play the game is used to a 90s-era saving system, at least I don't bother to open the save game section to do the thing.
However, it will be nice to have some autosave system between the maps/locations. If this feature is not present already.

[MusicallyInspired]

I don't mind quicksaves. The agency is still on the player to make those saves which is my only gripe with checkpoints.

[necroslut]

Zaxx, on 30 April 2018 - 07:15 AM, said:

It's easy to write this off as reviewers being stupid but I remember how I played FPS when I was a kid: I was not a tech savvy child and my parents never had the slightest idea about computers so I learned about PCs absolutely by myself as the years went on and I've been playing FPS for years before I discovered the magic of quick saving (this guy completed Serious Sam with manual saves as a kid! ). So stuff like this might be obvious for us these days but remember: there are people who grew up on consoles and only started flocking to PC these days thanks to Steam and hardware becoming more powerful and easier to handle than ever. To people like them pressing F1 or F6 might not be obvious since they grew up with a mindset governed by controllers and fixed save positions.

That would be a valid point, except there's a help screen right where you start. If someone chooses not to read it then it's either because they though they didn't need it when they apparently did - stupidity - or because they couldn't be bothered to take a moment to glance it over - laziness. It's not like it's a 300 page manual; it's a single screen - most of which is backstory which can be skipped over if so desired. It takes like half a second to look it over its contents and see if there's anything of use to you.

If you're a professional reviewer it's even worse than stupidity and laziness - it's incompetence or negligence. Back in the day that would have gotten you chewed out by the boss, but the modern youtube reviewers don't have bosses to answer to.

MrFlibble, on 30 April 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

What about an optional tutorial? That would help explain all the controls, including non-obvious stuff like pressing use on vents, in a non-intrusive way that does not disrupt actual gameplay.

That, or encourage users to compile, read and pass around unofficial FAQs, like in the good old days

The issue with tutorials is that
A) they take time and effort to make, which can be better spent elsewhere
people don't play optional tutorials anyway - they did when Half-Life came out but that was 20 years ago
C) non-optional tutorials are always intrusive



I also hope HTTKC comes out some day, in whatever form possible. Any attempt at a "definitive" release of Duke 3D would have to be based on EDuke32 for the sake of compability if nothing else.

[Zaxx]

necroslut, on 03 May 2018 - 02:47 AM, said:

That would be a valid point, except there's a help screen right where you start. If someone chooses not to read it then it's either because they though they didn't need it when they apparently did - stupidity - or because they couldn't be bothered to take a moment to glance it over - laziness.

I think it's more about a false sense of knowledge: "It's a shooter, I know how to play shooters".

As for reviewers, especially when it comes to the current "internet age" I think the main problem is the lack of time. When you have to produce content for Youtube or when you're writing a review for a website you have to work fast if you want to have people to watch / read your shit because if you take your time your review will be the last one out and at that point people will just stop caring. For example when I wrote a review of Doom 2016 for a website I basically had 2-3 days to do so because we never get review copies but in the case of Doom nobody got them before launch so it was a nice opportunity to get some traffic for the site (you know professional sites can't do it faster than you if there are no pre-release review copies). Now, in that short amount of time I had to complete the campaign on ultra violence (because I don't care about how the game plays on low difficulties), had to get into the multiplayer, had to have a look at SnapMap + I had to write the freakin' article. In that case it wasn't that tense (also my review was the first in my country and dare I say also the most accurate representation of the game), by the time I finished the review I was already halfway through the game on my nightmare difficulty playthrough too but you know, Doom is a relatively short game and at launch SnapMap was a big fat nothing so that made it possible. Now imagine doing the same with something like GTA or an RPG: it's impossible and if you try it your review will suck balls.

And let's also not forget that the consumption of "tutorials" changed a lot: back in the day you had a nice printed manual that was an experience in itself to read through, compared to that if you launch a game you want to play it instead of reading through text.

Quote

If you're a professional reviewer it's even worse than stupidity and laziness - it's incompetence or negligence. Back in the day that would have gotten you chewed out by the boss, but the modern youtube reviewers don't have bosses to answer to.

Sometimes I read old reviews from gaming magazines and I have to say you're wrong there: they can full of false information and a lead editor won't be able to correct that since he has his own job instead of playing through every single game the staff is reviewing. It's weird because in the case of monthly printed magazines a lack of time was not an issue at all but the lack of information was: nowadays you can just go online to look up the features of a game but back in the day you got a copy (sometimes even without a manual if it was a pre-release copy that may or may not be at 1.0... in some cases it wasn't and you were reviewing a beta or a release candidate).