[Sanek]

The third map in the seires.



HAVE FUN!
I hope you like it...

[MetHy]

You should finish the map before releasing it. If I took this as a finished map, I wouldn't even know where to start with the criticism.

Lorch 2 was a finished map, you clearly didn't even bother with this one. Like you got sick of making it and called it done before it was even fully playable.
A shame because it looks like it COULD be a good map.

Thar or you uploaded an old version of the map by accident.

[Ivan Jäger]

i think you uploaded the wrong map (the 'readme' is from LORCH2)

[Forge]

yea. i posted at CGS. three keys in my pocket, open borders until you get to the edge of the map (which squishes you), and no locks to be found.

edit: nevermind. opened it up in mapster and found the roof that's supposed to be jumped to.

kinda confusing when the blocking walls are so random.

forcing the player use steroids to make the jump is bad too. it doesn't look like the player is even supposed to go that way and there's no clue that particular roof is even accessible

[MetHy]

Forge, on 03 August 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

forcing the player use steroids to make the jump is bad too. it doesn't look like the player is even supposed to go that way and there's no clue that particular roof is even accessible

Yes that's what I meant when I say the map isn't fully playable. I used the steroids before hand so I had to use DNCLIP to get on the roof.
But even if you use the steroids to go on the roof, the map still isn't fully playable anyway because there isn't nearly enough ammo to kill the boss.
Boss which is glitchy in several ways anyway.
Also having to jump on the roof of the supermarket in such a way was not intuitive at all, felt like I was cheating even though there was obviously no other way to get there.
and that's without mentionning the mix of walls that should be blockable but aren't, and on the contrary blockable walls in random places which shouldn't be. When every 'unreachable place' is actually 'reachable' it doesn't help to figure out what you're supposed to be doing, ESPECIALLY when you are asked to jump above walls anyway to get a card (the red one!) leaving you to wonder if that wall was supposed to be blocked or not...
Also, some obvious lack of shading in some areas (like those small houses in the back, which you can see from miles away and stand out, in one of the 'reachable places')
+ half a dozen other more minor things which should be fixed too

The map isn't finished. I wouldn't give it a rating unless a finished version gets made, because that would be giving a rating on 'what could have been based on what we can see'.
And again it's a shame because it looks like it has potential and could be a good map.

Also the readme says Lorch2 but isn't from Lorch2.

[The Commander]

I thought Sanek had got good at making maps now, so what's happened here...

He has edited his post and removed the map download...
So he has seen these comments, not sure why he didn't say anything...

[MetHy]

I hope he doesn't take it personal. I guess I can sound harsh sometimes. But I don't know what else to say about this map rather than it's not finished, but that it has potential.

[Forge]

Sanek didn't provide a new upload and no comments so I'm guessing he thought it was finished.

Is it some kind of pride thing when you push out a map without using beta-testers?

[ck3D]

i guess i can shine some light over what's up with this map, seeing as, over the past few months and upon his constant requests, i went out of my way quite a few times to try and help Sanek out during the mapping process (first he needed me to add new locations to the map ; then he recently contacted me again to polish the final thing for him, by shading all the walls and sprites, adding some lighting and fixing the misaligned textures). needless to say and as many of you may know, for the past 6 months i happened to be snowed under with work, so i really couldn't do much ; the first time around (a few months back) i got to build a few (somewhat empty) extra rooms for him, as well as a quick rooftop ; i also added a fair amount of detailing to the outdoor area later on (unreachable buildings and stuff), fixing lots of misaligned textures and non-shaded walls in the process (honestly, the original file i got was a mess). then earlier this week he contacted me again for a new wave of free fixes. i was even shorter on time than i already was the first time around, so all i could find the time to sort out was - yet again - a lot of the shading in the new areas (everything was set to full bright when i got the map as though he hadn't even bothered with the looks of anything in the first place), some trimming on the building exteriors including a fair amount of decorative walls and layers of sectors to serve as eye-candy, and some texturing fixes. i am not even talking about basic texturing alignment problems at this point - some areas and design elements were just covered with unappropriate textures (entire stacks of cardboard boxes with their 'top' texture on their side walls, misaligned and oddly shaded), or generally built wrong (ie. awkwardly-sized flat sprites in order to cover sections of the floor that looked off in some areas due to not being set to relative to the correct first wall with the 'E' key). all those little side alleys also were devoid of any shading, not a single element in the entire map would cast any type of shadow or light and everything in the map in general was set to 0 (shade values and such ; pretty sure it applied to the lo- and hi-tags everywhere as well seeing how inconsistently they seem to have been implemented, according to everyone's reports - the entire gameplay sounds like a last minute addition with no real thought behind it).

all in all i was busy as fuck the whole time but i believed in the potential of the map (and Sanek sounded like he did, too), so i devoted the few scarce spare hours i had to it in order to help Sanek out with his project. i assumed that (even though contacting me was hard throughout the entire process due to me working two jobs in addition to my other hobbies) he had a clear idea of how he wanted his map to look and that he was, on his end, going to give it his best shot regardless of my help.

now, logging in today and seeing the map posted online in its current form in a so-called 'release thread', honestly i am fairly disappointed. even though i really didn't do that much, i feel like i wasted some precious time contributing to this project and trying to help a fellow mapper out. i had greater expectations as far as his seriousness was concerned, and really didn't expect him to leak the map online so early. my guess is that he had been working on it for so long (rushing everything due to having run out of inspiration for it eons ago) that he eventually got over it, and decided to post it in its current state. i have no idea why he would do that and try to pass it off as a finished map as well, when it's clear and obvious that it isn't (and the saddest thing is, it wouldn't have taken more than a week to actually polish everything and release it in proper form).

i am also under the impression that working with someone sort of encouraged him to slack off on his part, rush everything and build very basic, rough drafts only to just count on me at the very end to fix everything and make the map look presentable. i just got a pretty self-explanatory PM from him that he sent me on here on the day he posted this thread and i just noticed today logging in, which literally says 'Please download map from cgs and make it playable.im over with mapping'. i mean what the fuck ? how can you care so little about your own project that you just throw it at another mapper's face like that, expect them to do all the work you didn't do even though you know they aren't fully available and eventually leak it online in unfinished form - pretty much the e-quivalent of wiping your ass with it ?

apparently, Sanek was going away on vacation on the day he posted this thread. i guess he really wanted to release the map before leaving ; but really, that's not how it's supposed to work. if you are sitting on a map that's unfinished, even if it's only a few dozens of hours away from completion, you just keep it to yourself until it is fully ready even if that means it's not going to be released for another couple of months.

all in all i am fairly let down by this 'collaboration'. i don't know what the .txt says and whether or not my name is in there - i haven't checked the uploaded file yet - but if the map ever gets reviewed anywhere, please make sure noone is associating my name with it.

[ck3D]

The Angry Kiwi, on 04 August 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

He has edited his post and removed the map download...
So he has seen these comments, not sure why he didn't say anything...

just noticed that. this is much better. hopefully he changed his mind since posting this thread, and wants to keep the map private until it's actually finished now. i am down to help him out again if i can find the spare time to do so. i just don't want to get fucked over again. hopefully he can manage and carry his project to proper completion before making it public next time.

[MetHy]

ck3D, on 04 August 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

i don't know what the .txt says and whether or not my name is in there - i haven't checked the uploaded file yet - but if the map ever gets reviewed anywhere, please make sure noone is associating my name with it.

The txt said

Quote

Thanks to MRCK(ck3D) for his big help with shadows and some little polishing of the map!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW - Can I too send you some drafts so you can do all the hard work ?

j/k - anyway, that room that you did with the brown walls and few cardboard boxes look really good. It's incredible how good shading can literaly make a room by itself. I've been trying to do some similar stuff in the Shadow Warrior map I'm making with some corridors but it's not as good as this.

Edit : I estimate it would take only 2-3 hours to finish the map and I hope Sanek does that whenever he's back.

[Sixty Four]

So the map is gone now argghhh I still would have liked to see it but I was at work.... I was very interested coming to this thread, now I leave upset good day folks.

[Forge]

the download link at CGS still works.
that forum is set up so people can't edit their post after something like 30 minutes, so he couldn't take the link down - and he didn't remove the file from mediafire

[NNC]

Jesus, this thread is so uncomfortable to read.

[LeoD]

Hey Sanek,
please do as proposed by the others and "finish" this map. It's far too good to be left as-is. Especially my exploring type of gameplay often led me into areas I wasn't supposed to reach and I had to DNCLIP back. Not sure if you intended it that way, but

Spoiler

the tripbomb maze can easily be 'solved' by shooting a window.

[Forge]

iirc a window has to be shot out regardless to make the steroid jump across the alley to the next rooftop

there are all kinds of ways to access the background:
-drop out of the open window to the other side of the wall on the left
-drop out of the other window in the same room - it looks like it has glass, but isn't blocking - fall straight down to the building ledge and walk around to the backside of the building
-go to the first barricade on the right as you enter the street - hop over the hedge to the left of the barricade
-jump off the boxes & over the wall in the alley with the crates and chaingun
-jump off the roof with the yellow key card
-walk to the barricade at the far end of the street & follow the edge of the water to the left or right - eventually the player is allowed to get into the water

there's probably more, but those are the ones i remember off the top of my head

[Micky C]

If large sections of the map had shade 0, maybe it's an ideal candidate for Fox's shading script. The mapster version can apply it to highlighted sectors for extra precision.

Personally I find that when I'm low on inspiration for a map, if I leave it alone for a few months I can attack it again with fresh ideas and motivation. I know that's not exactly a quick fix, but if you're working on multiple projects simultaneously it's a good strategy.

[ck3D]

i don't know when Sanek is coming back from vacation but i guess i can try to give it a shot and finish it (after all, even though i don't really condone this type of attitude, he asked). it's going to be quite a lot of work in order to make it good to my standards and not just 'playable' but i can probably handle it. i have some spare time this month (ironically - which is also why i don't know why he just went ahead and posted it - i did have informed him that i would be able to keep going if needed). i just wish i could devote it to my own project instead, i have a map of my own that is near completion too, that i haven't touched in months. maybe i can handle both.

[Jblade]

I'd say just work on your own stuff, it's nice to help people but don't prioritize it over your own projects.

[Sanek]

I see what's going on in this thread, and try to explain what happened, if you can understand my bad englsh. (I'm still on vacation if want to know)
I started working on LORСH3 since the last August, just a couple of days after "Bridge Between Two Islands" was released. After that map I was really inspired to do such a big map, because after handling one I was sure that I can handle another one. The problems began here.
Production of the map turns up as slow as ever, because I want to do a lot of thing. I even want to add new enemies, weapons, cutscenes and another effects. But at first I just realised that I can't handle such a big map alone, so, I contacted MRCK/ck3d to help me with making the background area and some indoor scenes if he want to. I like his maps very much and I was extremely surprised that he's so kind to me, I appreciate that. But in such case I should find mapper who have more free time.
So, after MRCK sent me his contribution I worked on it alone for the most time, but the map didn't turns out as good as expected, because the indoor areas is just as small as in LORCH 2, and reachable outdoor area is not bigger either. I hope I can make the jail/underground big, but it seems that I just run out of inspiration down here. The jail is the worst part of the map.

And then I made a terrible mistake, deciding to finish this map until I'll go on vacation, on August 4th. The design of the map is almost done, but undergound part is not even ready, and I don't even started adding enemies, items and weaponry. I contacted MRCK to help me with shadows and some minor things. He's finally sent me the map on 3rd of August. I have less than a full day to add gameplay elements, and finish the jail part. And NOW the terrible things begun. I spent some time making that boss area, which is probably the most basic boss area part ever, and I guess it sucks. The gameplay elements was added when I have less than 3 hours until going out to airport. I was very tense, and tried to do everything I can. And I guess I was too nervous about that map, swearing every few seconds checking whether the map elements works. I don't nave very much time and can't think about the map for a long time, and then I thought that gameplay if not very good, but at least adequate. It was not.
And then I checked the forums, with the first comment about the map. And then I was ready to rave, just blocking the areas that should be unreachable because I don't have time to fix anything else. I posted the "fixed" version to both forums, but then I delete the link from this theard and wrote quick message to MRCK from my phone...


MRCK said that here that he's still help with this map, and I like he do this (the link at cgs forum). He can add anyting he want both to map ant txt, and credit himself as a full co-author of the map if want to be associated with that. When he sent me the link I just post it to forums without changing anything. After the last weeks of work on it, and especially the last day and hours (when everthing had to be done in rush and the mind is blowing up) I felt that I completely washed out as a mapper. I can hardly return to it. I feel terrible, extremely depressing about all that.

Farewell, Duke Nukem 3D mapping...

[Sanek]

...

[Micky C]

No need to leave Duke mapping, just take a rest.

Whatever the case, you should never rush a map like this, especially not to meet some imaginary deadline. There's nothing wrong with letting it sit while you go on holiday, in fact that's better since you'll come back feeling fresh and maybe with ideas. Try to forget about mapping for the moment; just enjoy yourself. Then map when you feel like it, not because you feel you have to. The Duke community will do just fine without Lorch 3 for several months.

And of course you shouldn't feel bad that you can't pump out non-stop large maps. For every high quality map that the veterans release, there's several unfinished ones which are lower quality and may or may not see the light of day.

Btw if you wanted cutscenes and fancy stuff, you could consider using an existing mod, like DukePlus or the AMC TC.

[Mike Norvak]

Micky C, on 07 August 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

No need to leave Duke mapping, just take a rest.

Spoiler

[Sixty Four]

Guess I wont be seeing this map ? I didn't find it on CGS either I rather see it then it dissapear

[LeoD]

Duke64Nukem, on 07 August 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

I didn't find it on CGS either

Take a closer look...

[MusicallyInspired]

Don't feel so constrained to deadlines. You're not a AAA company releasing DLC or anything. We can wait. That's one thing this community is good at. Take your time.

[Radar]

Just played this. I couldn't believe it. The map looked so beautiful for some time... then I was able to explore a part of the city I don't think I was supposed to and got crushed. Oh well. Poor Alejandro. I guess Duke will never find him now.

[MYHOUSE.MAP]

KGBrony, on 07 August 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

Just played this. I couldn't believe it. The map looked so beautiful for some time... then I was able to explore a part of the city I don't think I was supposed to and got crushed. Oh well. Poor Alejandro. I guess Duke will never find him now.

You can always find him...in your heart.

[ck3D]

Sanek, don't sweat it so much - it's just a map, for a video game from 1996 might I add - the most insignificant thing to worry about. Don't give yourself a heart attack, man, and just enjoy your vacation for now. You will come back to Duke mapping whenever you feel like it again. From the sounds of it, you forgot the main thing about this game - it is supposed to stay fun. If it gets you all worked up to such an extent, you definitely need a break.

Your effort won't go to waste, I will try to finish this for you (it might take a little while, but I can probably handle it). For now maybe you should just let your mind wander to other things.

Ever wondered how other mappers did to retain their sanity despite working on ambitious projects ? Simple - they take it easy, even if that means that their maps are either less ambitious, or take longer to complete than they should / could. Most of the time it is a combination of both, too.

ie. the map I am working on right now has been sitting on my hard drive for a year, I only get to touch it once in a blue moon (a few hours every three months on average). It is nothing ambitious whatsoever - the type of map I could have made in 24 hours for Metropolitan Mayhem, were I paid for it or able to work on it full time. Yet I am trying to keep things fun and do not prioritize mapping over other, more important aspects of life, so it's taking a lot longer. But who cares ? Where is the urge ? The community is still there and not going away (for now), I am getting some progress even though it's slow, the map will be released someday, somehow. It's all about taking it easy, man. It's not like you are in to win a race and competing for a gold medal.

[Forge]

never release something as finished when it clearly hasn't been properly tested, or you will get negative feedback.

quit pouting and help ck3d finish the map.