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[RELEASE] Duke Hard episode  "By the Duke4 community"

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#91

 blizzart, on 25 June 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

I used the 'B' switch and went through the vents, but couldn´t find anything.

then you missed it. re-explore the ventilation shafts
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User is online   blizzart 

#92

 Forge, on 25 June 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

then you missed it. re-explore the ventilation shafts


Yes I did. I didn´t see there was another 'B' section there. Thank you!
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User is offline   MetHy 

#93

Was any of you bothered by the forced weaponless map starts?
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User is offline   Jblade 

#94

Nah, it was a good idea because it keep the challenge rating up every level and meant that you were never over equipped to handle an easy situation.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#95

 MetHy, on 25 June 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

Was any of you bothered by the forced weaponless map starts?

not at all

taking into consideration that the episode is more like a "who's who" in the recent history of active mappers, and the inherent individuality and uniqueness of every map because of it, - it was preferable. actually it felt natural and almost unnoticeable after the first couple of floors.
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User is offline   MetHy 

#96

One map demo for Megaton uploaded :

http://steamcommunit...s/?id=276157640

Forge fixed things around and made sure the map plays well in Megaton
I've added info and link to the episode in the description. Also at the end of the map there is now a viewscreen with a text and "screenshots" of other maps (I've taken some from what i already did for the end of the lobby map + i added one from Showcase to make Paul B happy)

I usually never beg for this kind of shit (can't stand youtube rating beggers), but if anyone with a Steam account could rate the map up and subscribe to it that'd give more visibility to the map and therefore to the entire episode. Thanks!

This post has been edited by MetHy: 25 June 2014 - 02:39 PM

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User is offline   Paul B 

#97

 MetHy, on 25 June 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

One map demo for Megaton uploaded :
i added one from Showcase to make Paul B happy)


Methy you didn't have to do that on my accord. I was just curious why all the maps weren't shown as I was under the impression there would have been one security camera for each level shown.

Anyway... Thanks i guess however not necessary. I'm more disappointed that my map which was also intended for Megaton Death Match / Co-op will never really see the light of day for people who want to play it in Multi-player. I spent quite a good amount of time testing it for Death match and it actually played out really well. Oh well, maybe at some point with your permission I can take that map and release it for Megaton people to try on the workshop as well while also linking it to the episode. Because really my map is rather dull for single player but it really shines in Duke Death match.

This post has been edited by Paul B: 25 June 2014 - 03:17 PM

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User is offline   MetHy 

#98

 Paul B, on 25 June 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

Methy you didn't have to do that on my accord. I was just curious why all the maps weren't shown as I was under the impression there would have been one security camera for each level shown.

Anyway... Thanks i guess however not necessary. I'm more disappointed that my map which was also intended for Megaton Death Match / Co-op will never really see the light of day for people who want to play it in Multi-player. I spent quite a good amount of time testing it for Death match and it actually played out really well. Oh well, maybe at some point with your permission I can take that map and release it for Megaton people to try on the workshop as well while also linking it to the episode. Because really my map is rather dull for single player but it really shines in Duke Death match.


Well I am sorry but it was very clear since the start (or at least since very early on) that the Megaton release would just be a 1 map 'demo' picked completely randomly out of all the maps. You built your map with DM in mind while knowing that.

Also it doesn't seem fair that you get an exception (especially considering you already got one since your map is the only with actually 2 floors), however I also can't actually prevent anyone to do whatever they want with their maps, you haven't signed anything like that. It's YOUR map, do whatever you want with it, but if everyone starts uploading their maps individually, the episode would crumble and might as well not exist*; I thought people would understand that easily by themselves.
However I guess nobody will (and should) make a big fuss over something as trivial as a dn3D episode/map release.

Plus, for what it's worth, if you check the readme file I did mention in the "multiplayer" section that your map was built with DM in mind, while also mentionning it was the only one actually tested with that purpose; while also saying that people CAN take the maps out and use with whatever-sourceport-with-a-working-multiplayer if they really can't wait for EDuke32's online.

If you want MY opinion, I think putting it on Megaton playable as "DM/COOP" only (so people can't actually play it in singleplayer directly through the workshop/usermap menu of the game; while still being able to play in DM&COOP), seems like a fair compromise, especially if you explain in the description that to play your map in SP people will have to play the episode.

Your call.

[edit : you were not the only one who was vocal about willing their map to be the one on Megaton, too; I think that's because Megaton tends to get the most plays these days; but if that's the reason why anyone wants to upload his map there, I can bet that the episode as a whole will get a LOT more download than anyone's map on megaton individually. We seem to be pretty good at advertising our shit and EDuke32 mods/episodes usually get more downloads than individual DN3D maps. Already 250 downloads on moddb if you care about this kind of things]

* I know I uploaded Sex City, from the MM episode, on Megaton; but that was like for Eat The Rich, to advertise the episode; and I think it's worked but not as much as I hoped (I think Steam users REALLY are that lazy as far as downloading and installing anything goes. Don't think most of them know what a 7z is if they'd downloaded EDuke32). I guess I could have picked a map other than mine but since I thought that I seemed to be the only to care for the thing and go through the troubling of doing it, while also thinking that was (maybe still is) my best map while also considering MRCK already had a map from the episode released individually; I might as well go with that one.
Yes I'm trying to defend myself over that point even though nobody blamed me for it, just trying to be coherent with my past act and my present talking. Yes it's 3am. Yes I seem to be taking this WAAYYY too seriously.

This post has been edited by MetHy: 25 June 2014 - 05:11 PM

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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#99

 Forge, on 23 June 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

okay. just finished your map....and you're full of Grade-A bullshit.


Oh? Why don't you try to find a single shadow, just 1 shadow in the entire map? There's also an almost complete lack of floor and ceiling trimming, not to mention general detail. Coming along soon after maps like Cage's and Steambull's really shows the contrast. IIRC me and James were the first to make our maps, back when we thought this was just meant to be a simple, quick thing, and I didn't realize that people would take 5 months or whatever making such exquisite details. I probably couldn't match the detail anyway, but I could have had better architecture. Your map had way better detail.

Btw, what's happening with the update? Is there some kind of due date for that? Or are we waiting for people to play through it properly to make sure we've 100% got all the bugs sorted out in one go?

This post has been edited by Mickey C: 25 June 2014 - 05:08 PM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#100

 MetHy, on 25 June 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

If you want MY opinion, I think putting it on Megaton playable as "DM/COOP" only (so people can't actually play it in singleplayer directly through the workshop/usermap menu of the game; while still being able to play in DM&COOP), seems like a fair compromise, especially if you explain in the description that to play your map in SP people will have to play the episode.

^this
remove/block the exit if not done so already

i know you worked hard to get those multi-player modes ready for megaton. be a waste if you didn't share it

This post has been edited by Forge: 25 June 2014 - 05:10 PM

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User is offline   MetHy 

#101

 Mickey C, on 25 June 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Btw, what's happening with the update? Is there some kind of due date for that? Or are we waiting for people to play through it properly to make sure we've 100% got all the bugs sorted out in one go?


Yes I think it's good to wait (in case any more glitch is reported) a little so we make one update, be done with it, and never touch this thing again.

Also you said you were willing to fix some things for your map so I guess we're waiting for that, too. (btw - the 3rd switch of your 2 way train, the one at the exit, is still very hard to press. It's possible but really hard, thankfully not many people need it unless you play in coop. I tried to fix it but the only solution i found was to put far away from the door; which would suck; would be good if you could have a look at that).

Also about the jump in Forge's map; Daedolon said it actually was possible in classic Duke, like, not even hard at all either. I really don't know anymore, I remember trying really hard and couldn't do it...

Also has anyone noticed some huge volume difference between midis? They were all evened out, by High Treason (and the midis submitted later on by hendricks i think?) but it seems like for instance nebel.mid (from Executive map02) is really quiet for some and really loud for others? Could such a midi glitch even be possible?
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User is offline   Paul B 

#102

 MetHy, on 25 June 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:


If you want MY opinion, I think putting it on Megaton playable as "DM/COOP" only (so people can't actually play it in singleplayer directly through the workshop/usermap menu of the game; while still being able to play in DM&COOP), seems like a fair compromise, especially if you explain in the description that to play your map in SP people will have to play the episode.

Your call.


Methy, I like your thinking so I might look into this in the future and I appreciate the support so thanks. I wouldn't mind trying death match with the team on this map. I know i'd probably get my a$$ kicked but i'm curious to hear peoples feed back about the multi-player aspect. The fact that this map actually turned out well for multi-player was kind of a fluke and an after thought that really worked in my favor. It just seemed to flow and I went along with it.

This post has been edited by Paul B: 25 June 2014 - 09:53 PM

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User is offline   Cage 

#103

I have to write this: guys who whined most about their maps the most made some real good ones :) Abstractech, Eat the rich and Showcase are all well done and memorable and each one has cool ideas of it's own. I wasn't too happy about gameplay in my map first, since I've had to do it differently than envisioned at in the beginning and I didn't have time to test it very well, so I'm very happy it works decently in the end. Also I think I've made the shortest map, so I could be bothered by that but who cares! ^_^ You can really see that effort and heart was put into every map and you can clearly see that.

To sum it all up, this episode is really great and it was awesome to not have it spoiled by seeing the maps early. I'm super-happy I was a part of this and it also feels good to finally have a first map release.

Also, don't miss the secret map, it's great! I found it very easy to find though (I guess that's the point somewhat)
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User is offline   MetHy 

#104

It was reported on the workshop that Forge's map has some issue with the coop spawn (some of them make the players start underneath ground); I'm lucky enough to have access to 2 computers (mine and my gf's) so I'll do some testing and fixing and retesting in coop.

This might be the case for other maps so I'll have test them, too.

Also someone posted a comment moddb saying the episode doesn't run for him. Any idea? I've asked him to try a couple of things but I'm clearly not very competent :
http://www.moddb.com...e-hard-episode/

This post has been edited by MetHy: 26 June 2014 - 04:25 AM

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User is offline   Paul B 

#105

Maybe a file permissions problem on the modd folder. Also I think I ran into a problem with the mod if I had the parent folder of eduke called dukehard. The path was something like. C:\DUKEHARD\EDUKE32.exe therefore making the mod folder c:\dukehard\dukehard\

Maybe have him zip the entire eduke folder and extract all the files again into a new folder also making sure the relative path to eduke is short with no spaces in the folder name. This will strip all ntfs permissions from all previous files.

This post has been edited by Paul B: 26 June 2014 - 05:35 AM

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#106

All I can think is he didn't do a clean install and has a loose Duke3D.def or EDuke.con hanging around in his directory, otherwise, no idea.
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User is offline   MetHy 

#107

 High Treason, on 26 June 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

All I can think is he didn't do a clean install and has a loose Duke3D.def or EDuke.con hanging around in his directory, otherwise, no idea.


That's what I'm thinking too. He must have some other mods installed in his eduke32 folder.

I did mention that people should install in a new, clean, folder to avoid conflincts with other maps or mods; however I only mentionned it in the FAQ. Perhaps I should mention it in the installation instructions as a foot note, too.
If that's the case though, the guy clearly didn't read the FAQ in the readme making waste everyone's time (including his). I think I'll change the name of the "FAQ" section to "FAQ / Troubleshoots" or something.

 Paul B, on 26 June 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

Maybe a file permissions problem on the modd folder. Also I think I ran into a problem with the mod if I had the parent folder of eduke called dukehard. The path was something lik. C:\DUKEHARD\EDUKE32.exe therefore making the mod folder c:\dukehard\dukehard\


and how is that a problem? Also yeah, the folder name was thought for people who call their root folder "eduke32"; but calling the dukehard folder anything other than dukehard would just be confusing when having to select it in the "custom game content directory"; like if we just call it "data" it wouldn't tell what it is if you use that same eduke32 folder for other maps or mods too; and "dukeharddata" seems too long and kind of useless.

This post has been edited by MetHy: 26 June 2014 - 05:34 AM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#108

 MetHy, on 25 June 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Also about the jump in Forge's map; Daedolon said it actually was possible in classic Duke, like, not even hard at all either. I really don't know anymore, I remember trying really hard and couldn't do it...

i tried for awhile in dos duke3d and couldn't make the jump either. even if it is possible to make it into the vent, it's quite obvious there's a difference in the mechanics between dos & eduke


 MetHy, on 26 June 2014 - 04:25 AM, said:

Also someone posted a comment moddb saying the episode doesn't run for him. Any idea? I've asked him to try a couple of things but I'm clearly not very competent :
http://www.moddb.com...e-hard-episode/

without a log file it's all a guessing game
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User is offline   Paul B 

#109

 Cage, on 26 June 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

I have to write this: guys who whined most about their maps the most made some real good ones ^_^ Abstractech, Eat the rich and Showcase


You cant be serious? Since when did I whine about my map? I just wanted it to be accessible to deathmatch. Micky started the whining! Blame him!lol
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#110

 Paul B, on 26 June 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

You cant be serious? Since when did I whine about my map?

 Paul B, on 23 June 2014 - 12:12 AM, said:

Makes my map feel pretty basic and typical.

quiet whiner
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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#111

I was just in shock of the beauty of the other maps in the episode, plus I generally think all my maps suck not long after I've finished them. The line gets blurred between whether it's actually bad, or whether you've just looked at it so long and played it so much that it's dull from overuse. I still think the details are below average for the episode, but it's always reassuring that people think it's good (probably for the gameplay and layout), and always nice when they take the time to say so.
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User is offline   MetHy 

#112

 Mickey C, on 26 June 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

I was just in shock of the beauty of the other maps in the episode, plus I generally think all my maps suck not long after I've finished them. The line gets blurred between whether it's actually bad, or whether you've just looked at it so long and played it so much that it's dull from overuse. I still think the details are below average for the episode, but it's always reassuring that people think it's good (probably for the gameplay and layout), and always nice when they take the time to say so.


For what it's worth at least one person thinks your map is the best : http://www.doomworld...261#post1281261 (I heard someone else say Showcase was the best; other mentionned Forge's map layout and gameplay was pretty smart; others think Cage's the best, etc etc)

But I've seen comments from many people and it's a matter of taste really, plenty people think different things of all the maps and have their own favourites

edit : now everyone stop begging for attention whining

This post has been edited by MetHy: 26 June 2014 - 06:52 AM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#113

Map 8 was also very straightforward, but interesting. Nicely looped-around-itself layout. Mostly it was easy, except a dickish Assault Commander ambush after I've left a vent shaft.

dickish. i left an impression. sweet.
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User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#114

Thanks for this pack!
Was a really nice experience and the variety from different authors kept it fresh as it never got too repetitive. Each map, detailed or not, really contributed to the overall experience.
Congrats to everyone involved.

Skill3 playtrough comments:

Spoiler

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User is offline   MetHy 

#115

 oasiz, on 26 June 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

This and the lack of supplies in some of the maps is a potential improvement for future revisions or a suggestion for future maps.


You're the 2nd person who reports ammo balancing issues. Can you please be specific about which map you had trouble with?
I personally think it's fine, so did other testers (and other people ITT); so I don't think we should re-balance things for the patch, or if we do it should be as small as adding ONE shotgun/chaingun pack in the maps which are reported having that issue; nothing more; and only if the mappers agree.
Also, I don't know how YOU play, however I've started watching NukemRoses's playthrough of the episode on youtube, and I noticed that he's running low on ammo EVEN on Piece Of Cake (the first map supports Piece Of Cake) but that's because not only he doesn't always check everywhere for ammo (like he missed the chaingun ammo in the locker of the laundry as well as missed the freezer in the locker of the manager's office) and also because he wastes ammo a LOT : as far as my maps are concerned I do not believe they should cater to people who use the shotgun to kill a single loose slimer or even EMPTY slimer eggs !
Edit : Also, most of the maps were built with auto-aiming in mind; which can make a difference. I think Forge plays without auto-aim though and he said ammo was fine.

Quote

ROOFTOP
Contender for a favourite level, this was the defition for me on how a good boss level should be like. Bunch of action, all happening in the same spot with a changing enviroment, bunch of excessive explosions, action and cool mini-puzzles. The electricity wiring section was a well thought out section. This whole map is just the perfect climax, good job!
One nitpick might be flying ship that shoots rockets, I almost died the first time I got out as it was really badly timed, maybe have more protection once you get on top could have worked out ?


Thanks; for my defense, I wanted to handle the transition from staircase to rooftop differently at first. I wanted both to be directly connected, with actual SoS, which would have left room the player more time to realize where he is and to see the spaceship. However, I built the transition as one of the last things and since I don't do SoS very often, I had completely forgotten I needed a construction with white walls to link both areas; which as it is was NOT possible (or it would have given a very ugly sky 'visual glitch' where the top of that construction would hide the surrounding buildings, flying enemies, spaceship, helicopter, etc); so I had to come up with another way and the vents with a teleporting ladder was the only thing I could think of.
I guess I COULD have put the exit of the vents into a small closed in building (again, to give the player more time); however I considered the following : it would make less sense; I really liked how with the vents you're brought directly into mayhem with the explosion in front of you as soon as you step outside; and you'd only get shot by the spaceship if you're unlucky with the timing; and even then unless you're very unlucky and it shoots 3-4 rockets at you at the same time (which CAN happen, but which is rare) you wouldn't die anyway, and I also provided a 30hp pack at the bottom of the stairs to avoid getting killed by a single rocket. So, I decided to stick with that.
Also, the timing is completely random, so are the numbers of rockets the spaceship will shoot. I can't control how much time the player will take to get there nor can I control the spaceship's actions too much. So yeah, sorry if you got an unlucky shot as you stepped in, but it really is bad luck which shouldn't happen to most players and which is the way it is for the Greater Good of the map :)

Quote

PARKING
Intro was handled well, I liked that!
Tank scripting was the highlight of this map and the electrical water bit was a nice idea as well.

The "SECRET LEVEL" quote needs more love ^_^
As for the tank, I based it on an untextured sector pigtank I found in an example map of EDuke32. I don't exactly know who made it but I figured it was there to be used (which I think is the point of example maps) and gave credits in the readme file (if the author of it wants to speaks out I could give proper credits in the readme)

This post has been edited by MetHy: 26 June 2014 - 09:16 AM

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User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#116

Here is a play trough stream I did: My link / / / Copy of My link (2)
It might give some insight on how I experienced things, I comment stuff on the fly. I do admit that I did rush up a TON and probably my play style wasn't the most optimal one ^_^
I still stand with my opinion on the supplies as it is purely based on my play style along with using the same style in other games or maps, I do admit that skill3 wasn't probably the smartest choice for the first try at this.

For players:
I strongly suggest against watching those videos as they contain random speech on top from the live stream I did, only providing these as a potential feedback for the designers to see how a "first timer" goes trough these.
Some levels contain a lot of save-grinding as I make mistakes.

This post has been edited by oasiz: 26 June 2014 - 09:37 AM

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User is offline   MetHy 

#117

Thanks a lot for the video, much appreciated! I learn a lot by watching people play.

About the 2 commanders at the same time in the lobby map, I really never expected people to actually trigger the 2nd one BEFORE killing the first one!

Random example : you've missed BOTH chainguns in Steambull's map even though Steambull put the 2nd one exactly because he thought people could miss the first one! You also seem to rush a lot and sometimes don't grab health packs / armor even if they are just in front of your eyes and you could use it. I'm also pretty surprised at how you tend to not always kill enemies instantly and sometimes not even at all. Usually though, as far as the lobby is concerned and after watching both nukemroses and your video, I'm pretty glad because gameplay seems to work mostly like I envisioned it.

I know for having streamed a lot though that when streaming while playing, you usually pay less attention to the game because you're also taking care of watching the chat and answering to it at the same time; so that might not help.

This post has been edited by MetHy: 26 June 2014 - 10:19 AM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#118

 MetHy, on 26 June 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

most of the maps were built with auto-aiming in mind; which can make a difference. I think Forge plays without auto-aim though and he said ammo was fine.

^this

because:

Quote

he doesn't always check everywhere for ammo

i take my time and find the supplies

i don't do this:

Quote

and also because he wastes ammo a LOT

i have to identify my target, aim, then shoot. i don't open doors and hold down the fire button hoping for the best.
I do miss or just graze the enemy on occasion, so i can waste ammo, but i don't throw 100 rounds down range and depend on the game mechanics to hit my targets for me

i don't do this:

Quote

people who use the shotgun to kill a single loose slimer or even EMPTY slimer eggs !

that's what the boot is for
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User is offline   Robman 

  • Asswhipe [sic]

#119

This looks very well done, great job guys!

Love the opening image with the building/helicopter, Die Hard style.
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User is offline   MetHy 

#120

 oasiz, on 26 June 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

Here is a play trough stream I did: My link / / / Copy of My link (2)


Some more thoughts :
- you complained about some commanders in tight places (in the overall episode); but did you realize that it's the laser which killed you and not the commander at 18:50 ? I think the commander fight is fine there btw ; (and again I really never thought people would trigger the 2 commanders at once in the first map; though I don't know if you meant those in particular because there really is a enough space to fight them imo)
- still in steambull's map, you complain about how you only have the freezer left and wouldn't have survived (not enough ammo) if you didn't find the secret; but again you missed both chainguns while they're really not hidden; after that you also kept going with 1 shotgun shell left, yet if you looked around just even for 1 second you would have found the shotgun shell pack in the office near the red keycard; Then, by rushing past the Blord you actually missed ammo/armor/health supplies in that room, which includes a stack of pipebomb on top of the small wall that is just right there in plain sight, had you looked a LITTLE BIT more to left (where the enforcers came from) before rushing you would have seen it; and therefore would have also found the armor and other supplies next to that wall; you also went rushing past the Blord with low hp even though just in the previous corridor (the one with the commander) you left a 30hp pack which you had seen, and which have taken only 2 seconds of backtracking.
Also I think you could have killed that BLord with the amount of ammo you had. What you had left of freezer ammo would have already taken most of its HP, plus with the freezer you could have hit it from around the corner and with the right angle hit him without worrying about recieving a single shot. Then the rest of the ammo for other weapons would have finished him; and had you done that you WOULD have seen the stack of pipebombs, too; or try to backtrack a little in search of supplies to finish him and would have found that shotgun shells pack.

I'm going to stop here, I don't want to sound like an asshole who keeps hitting on you; I'm sorry but really the supplies are there, but if you don't look around even just a little you're not going to find it. It's true that Duke3D mappers tend to 'hide' their ammo more than say, for example, Doom mappers; but even then it's really not REALLY hidden most of the times, you just have to look around even just a little bit, and if you play Duke Nukem 3D you should be used to it too. I think even the original game is kinda like that, too.

My point is, I think your playstyle isn't compatible with the way some of us see Duke3D balancing. We like to make the player have to look around and search a little (though not that much) for his supplies, because it feels more rewarding this way and less stupid than for example seeing an atomic health + an RPG right in the middle of the room just before a BLord shows up. Besides; to stay on the example of Steambull's map, some efforts were already made to make sure such things wouldn't happen, like for instance putting a 2nd chaingun in case the player misses the first one, as well as that pipebomb stack I mentionned (the one on top of that small wall near the BLord; which was added very last minute after the testers' reports). Now if you miss that one too, how many more chainguns are we supposed to put in our maps?

I hope you don't take this personally, it really isn't, I'm just trying to explain the other side of things.

This post has been edited by MetHy: 26 June 2014 - 01:21 PM

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