[Inspector Lagomorf]

Mr.Deviance, on 16 June 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

In my opinion, Doom is about an unique ambient, it's about vivid colors contrasting each other, especially red blue and green, it's about level shapes, it's about sfx, it's about music, it's about how every single enemy looks and sounds, it's about EVERY weapon that's part of the arsenal not just the shotguns, it's about the pleasure of goring huge hordes of enemies at once, it's about the pleasure and frustration of finding the last keycard when you have little ammo and little health left, it's about finding secrets where you least expect them to be or where you already know them to be, it's about seeing those unique items for the first time in your life, like that blue face or the green one, or seeing the blue health vials or the skull helmets with green glowing eyes, the marine face that's part of the hud, the texture for the exit door with the little red exit sign above it, about that map that you see after you beat a level...
And until I see some doom1/2 items,weapons and enemies converted into proper looking and animated 3d models that properly reproduce their sprite counterparts, I will have to say that it's also about it's original sprites!

Demons and shotguns.

[Mr.Deviance]

Comrade Major, on 16 June 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Demons and shotguns.

Troll as much as you want but you know that's not true after you read my previous post.

[MusicallyInspired]

Carmack didn't say that about video game stories and porn, Romero did.

[Mr.Deviance]

MusicallyInspired, on 16 June 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Carmack didn't say that about video game stories and porn, Romero did.

Then why does the whole internet quote Carmack for saying it?

[Duke of Hazzard]

I think the original Doom's only fault is that the pistol is useless... Brutal Doom fixed that by replacing it with something worth using.

[Tea Monster]

Mr.Deviance, on 16 June 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Actually, I can think of at least 100 different ways in which a Doom game can be ruined if it's built only taking Carmack's sentence as the main starting point for a sequel.
There is sooooooo much more to the Doom recipe than "Demons and shotguns"
I can think of at least 1000 different games that can feature demons as the enemies and shotguns as your weapons and none of those games will remind anybody of doom, not even 1%...
Saying the Doom ip is defined by just demons and shotguns is like saying that bipedal human walking only requires bones and muscles...
So expected of Carmack to take a very complex artistic piece and define with just 2 words that relate to the physical world.
Carmack is a scientist not an artist and his views on what makes a great game will always be strongly influenced by his technical oriented thinking.
Carmack has a history with these facepalm things that he says when he wants to define a complex art piece by just a few mathematically aligned words...

"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important."
He has also said this idiotic thing before and I'm sure he has since revised his thinking because if he still believes this, then he too is ignorant just like anybody else, no matter how smart and open minded he is when it comes to tech stuff.

His answers regarding anything are always going to be very close to mathematical results.

If you want somebody to tell you what doom is about, ask Romero.
Romero might be a fuckup 10 times over but when it comes to Doom, he just KNOWS what it's about.
Even some of the die hard oldschool doom mappers and gamers from the 90's can tell you what Doom is about, much better than Carmack can.
Carmack coded the doom engine and to him, that's what doom is about.


So no, Doom is not about just shotguns and demons, that's an extremely superficial way of looking at what makes Doom great.

In my opinion, Doom is about an unique ambient, it's about vivid colors contrasting each other, especially red blue and green, it's about level shapes, it's about sfx, it's about music, it's about how every single enemy looks and sounds, it's about EVERY weapon that's part of the arsenal not just the shotguns, it's about the pleasure of goring huge hordes of enemies at once, it's about the pleasure and frustration of finding the last keycard when you have little ammo and little health left, it's about finding secrets where you least expect them to be or where you already know them to be, it's about seeing those unique items for the first time in your life, like that blue face or the green one, or seeing the blue health vials or the skull helmets with green glowing eyes, the marine face that's part of the hud, the texture for the exit door with the little red exit sign above it, about that map that you see after you beat a level...
And until I see some doom1/2 items,weapons and enemies converted into proper looking and animated 3d models that properly reproduce their sprite counterparts, I will have to say that it's also about it's original sprites!

Why just shotgun when everybody knows that if there are 2 weapons that define doom, then those are the chainsaw and the other is the bfg9000.

The simple fact that in the doom4 teaser there is what appears to be the classic doom1/2 door texture remade accompanied by the old sound effect, single handedly make me expect doom4 to be connected to doom1/2 more than doom3 was.
If that was just some gimmick used in the teaser and it won't be reflected in the actual game, then shame on them.

30% truth, 70% Utter bollocks.

[LkMax]

Duke of Hazzard, on 16 June 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

I think the original Doom's only fault is that the pistol is useless... Brutal Doom fixed that by replacing it with something worth using.

yeaaa but it's not true, not at least until you get the chaingun. The pistol accuracy is excellent when giving enough time between shots; good for ammo management and distant attacks, like a micro-sniper.

[MusicallyInspired]

Mr.Deviance, on 16 June 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Then why does the whole internet quote Carmack for saying it?

I could have sworn it was Romero. That's where I first heard it. Someone must have misquoted somewhere wherever I read it.

[Komenja]

The Doom Wiki quotes Carmack with saying it. Link

Quote

John Carmack disapproved of the detailed plot, instead imagining Doom as a simple, action-oriented game. He remarked, "Story in a game is like story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important." This creative conflict ended with the others agreeing that Hall's levels emphasized realism at the cost of making the gameplay entertaining. Hall was forced to resign in the summer of 1993.

I think this was mentioned in Masters of Doom as well, I'm gonna go pick through my copy to try to find it.

edit: Found it, page 128:

Quote

Though Romero was somewhat supportive at first, Carmack had other ideas. "Story in a game," he said, "is like a story in a porn movie; it's expected to be there, but it's not that important." Tom gnashed his teeth.

[HulkNukem]

MetHy, on 16 June 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

I feel like the teaser brings bad news.
There is a voice off telling you the story.

Like, thetTeaser is actually focused on telling the story more than anything; like they think it's important and it's what people are interested in, like they think the story will 'tease' them.

Holy shit this is a bad sign.

also wasn't the door sound in the Doom 3 teaser too?

Throwaway dialogue in a teaser shouldn't be looked at as much as this. The original E3 trailer for Doom 3 had some voice over too, and we can all see how little story mattered in that game.
The teaser focused more on showing what the demons could all potentially look like.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Komenja, on 16 June 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

The Doom Wiki quotes Carmack with saying it. Link

I think this was mentioned in Masters of Doom as well, I'm gonna go pick through my copy to try to find it.

edit: Found it, page 128:

When you investigate the ugly creativity disputes behind DooM and realize that it could have been an entirely different game had the team layout been slightly different, one has to wonder whether the game that Tom Hall/DooM Bible intended would have sold as well or indeed been as good as the game that is now immortalized forever in gaming history.

[Komenja]

That could make for a cheesy time travel movie plot. "What would happen to the future of the game industry if Doom was a different game, man?"

[Duke of Hazzard]

Comrade Major, on 17 June 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

When you investigate the ugly creativity disputes behind DooM and realize that it could have been an entirely different game had the team layout been slightly different, one has to wonder whether the game that Tom Hall/DooM Bible intended would have sold as well or indeed been as good as the game that is now immortalized forever in gaming history.

So, basically, it was thanks to the above criticized Carmack that the team took a different direction which resulted in the Doom that was eventually released?

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Duke of Hazzard, on 18 June 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

So, basically, it was thanks to the above criticized Carmack that the team took a different direction which resulted in the Doom that was eventually released?

I think DooM was just a perfect storm of the work of many different designers; even including Tom Hall, who was unhappy with the final result.

[MusicallyInspired]

I had no idea DooM went through that kind of development. Similar to Quake. Though, while I understand why Doom is popular, I cannot figure out what made Quake so great. What a terrible mishmash of design decisions. I can't figure out what's so appealing about it.

[Carl Winslow]

Quake's popularity went from entirely "WOAH 3D!" to "holy shit the fanmade content is so stellar!". if you've seen the Honey series of maps or played a few mods for Quake, you'd understand this. There was quite alot of content there that was more inventive than what Doom could pull off. QuakeC was the start of something absolutely magical, and it changed the way alot of games are designed. Duke Nukem 3D was also very versatile for this reason, and why it still (barely) survives these days.

[Fox]

Comrade Major, on 17 June 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

When you investigate the ugly creativity disputes behind DooM and realize that it could have been an entirely different game had the team layout been slightly different, one has to wonder whether the game that Tom Hall/DooM Bible intended would have sold as well or indeed been as good as the game that is now immortalized forever in gaming history.

I think you are exaggerating it. They also cut a lot of stuff in Wolfenstein 3D for the sake of action (for example taking the uniform of dead guards). They would realize one way or another that they should focus on gameplay.

[Micky C]

Would the game have been any better or worse if it kept along the original plan? I mean it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if Doom had a story would it? Or are people more concerned about that comment I keep reading saying "Tom's levels aimed for realism while sacrificing gameplay" or something like that?

[Jimmy]

I think a lot of it came down to technology as well. Overly complicated things seem to be the first to be ditched.

[OpenMaw]

Tom's level layouts weren't that great when you're thinking in terms of the gameplay that Doom finally ended up with. Doom, originally, was not only going to feature a more lavish story, but hub-based level design, differing character classes, and a focus on creating a lived-in world. Half-Life tried to do something similar by interconnecting all the levels directly.

One of the reasons some of the maps have a sense of interconnection is because of that transitional state that went on. If they had gone with Tom Hall's version of Doom, I venture to guess the game would have a cult following, but the user-base just wouldn't exist. The game would have been a very different beast, and a very intricate set of systems. It would be much harder to integrate user content into a game that relied so heavily on it's own story. Doom being fast and loose on plot, and focusing on a few very well done gameplay mechanics is what lent it so nicely to the huge array of mods and user content... Which i'll take any day over Hall's story-driven game.

Besides, we'll likely get Halls version of Doom in the form of the Evil Unleashed mod/TC that's been in the works for a few years now.


Now I want to be clear about one thing, i'm not saying DOOM can't have a story. It's all down to how you integrate that story into the game, though. Not a lot, for starters, and you should not interrupt the gameplay to tell it. Limited and short scripted events, text-stuff during loading screens or at the end of chapters. An introduction to give context. That's it. Let the rest of the story be handled by way of the environment. You don't need an audio log to tell us a firefight took place in this hallway. The dead bodies and shell casings tell us the story. That's how you handle Doom's plot.

[ZedSlayer]

So Hall envisioned Doom more like how Strife turned out?

[100199]

Doom 3 was not epic/legendary like its predecessors, but it was good. Just put some weapon sound mods (hence the deault ones are absolutley awful), put the duct tape mod and pretty much the game becomes way more enjoyable in my opinion. Story was told greatly, it was fun to read the PDA's and facility reports to get insights on the invasion and secrets. Far better than watching hours of cutscenes.

I always heard this 'Repetitive' argument. If its due to the level design, I can agree to some extent. However if its due to the fact that the game thankfully didn't bothered to put 'variety' on it (like turrets, vehicles or stealth), then, I hope Doom 4 becomes "repetitive" just like Doom 3 (and classic Doom for that matter)

Back in 2004, quite a few mainstream reviewers moaned of how much it was "boring to open doors and shoot enemies over and over again". *facepalm*
Perhaps thats one of the reasons 99% of present shooters suck.

Commando Nukem, on 20 June 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

...Doom being fast and loose on plot, and focusing on a few very well done gameplay mechanics is what lent it so nicely to the huge array of mods and user content... Which i'll take any day over Hall's story-driven game...
....Now I want to be clear about one thing, i'm not saying DOOM can't have a story. It's all down to how you integrate that story into the game, though. Not a lot, for starters, and you should not interrupt the gameplay to tell it. Limited and short scripted events, text-stuff during loading screens or at the end of chapters. An introduction to give context. That's it. Let the rest of the story be handled by way of the environment. You don't need an audio log to tell us a firefight took place in this hallway. The dead bodies and shell casings tell us the story. That's how you handle Doom's plot.

good post

[Oook]

100199, on 22 June 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Back in 2004, quite a few mainstream reviewers moaned of how much it was "boring to open doors and shoot enemies over and over again". *facepalm*

I agree it's really worrying that a game about shooting monsters is unable to make shooting monsters fun. Something is really broken in game mechanics when this happens.
No one complained about Painkiller consisting in massacring hundreds of demons to the next checkpoint and then all over again, and it was also released in 2004.

[100199]

Oook, on 23 June 2014 - 03:28 AM, said:

I agree it's really worrying that a game about shooting monsters is unable to make shooting monsters fun. Something is really broken in game mechanics when this happens.
No one complained about Painkiller consisting in massacring hundreds of demons to the next checkpoint and then all over again, and it was also released in 2004.

I thought shooting monsters in Doom 3 was pretty much fun. Not the best AI available, but it was a far cry from being a bore in my opinion. The weak gun sounds played a major issue for me, as soon that was solved it becames another experience.

Fighting the smaller demons/zombies on the bases and the larger demons on the hell levels were satisfying and challenging. Especially without quicksaving on veteran.

Talking about 2004, there were better games such Crytek's Far Cry but Doom 3 was a fairly solid effort. I expected a bit more but I can't say I was disapointed with it, like I was with HL2 or Quake 4 for instance.

[Carl Winslow]

Doom 3 is a game where using the exact same trick of having an Imp jump through the door or monster closet is so common that after a point you just instinctively open doors from the side. Jesus christ why would you use that more than 3 times. It also does a great job of having very little movement space, so alot of times it's really difficult to dodge attacks and projectiles thrown at you unless the game is first introducing an enemy. Shooting the badguys is unsatisfying in every way. the guns have no impact or meaty sounds, you're hamfisted into tiny spaces, and the enemies usually have some way of suprising you that takes the armor or health item you just got moments ago. You almost never run into more than one enemy type, So just to make it worse there's barely any strategy to a fight beyond ducking behind a corner and shooting a thing until it dies.

There's a million things wrong with the way Doom 3 is structured, and it all starts with it's most basic gameplay. Prey was better in every way, and it's incredibly silly how it got shit on more for 'being dark' when it was the least dark of the Idtech4 games. Quake 4 also had more interesting fights and a larger variety of things to fight, and you actually fought more than one type of enemy at once.

[Come On And Slam]

Just imagine it. You boot up Doom 4, there's a difficulty choice that makes fun of you for being a huge pussy and selecting easy. So you select hard difficulty, not ready to be insulted by this shitbox 2014 shooter.

You begin the first level. A metal track begins playing in the background and you pick up the shotgun and begin blowing denizens of Hell asunder. No dialogue, no cut scenes, no tutorials, no cinematics. Nothing but you, your delicious guns firing louder than God's revolver, and a horde of ancient demons.

...don't bother reminding me that this will never happen in modern industry...even most indie titles are too big of sissies to be more than arena shooters

[Komenja]

I'd have to buy new pants if that happened.

[DukeNukem64]

Are there any rumors that are trustable about when the beta will be out and whether it's MP or SP?

[HulkNukem]

DukeNukem64, on 26 June 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Are there any rumors that are trustable about when the beta will be out and whether it's MP or SP?

Don't know why it wouldn't be an MP beta, no sense releasing an SP beta unless its become rogue-like (which I doubt anyone really wants from Doom)
Beta release date will probably be revealed at Quakecon

[DukeNukem64]

How big is quake con? I mean how many attendees?