[NUKEMDAVE]

Duke Nukem 3D: Megaton Edition - Patched Expansion Pack Maps

Caribbean, NW, D.C. Full Map Pack:
Download (Updated: December 8, 2014)

[Hendricks266]

NUKEMDAVE, on 23 April 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

I don't doubt that your Vaca+ and NW+ is better as far as fixing and improving things in the maps, but what about multiplayer?

You don't need to kiss my ass. You've changed many more things than I have, and things that I wouldn't have.

My map patches were never considered for Megaton beyond an initial PM by Termit because they wouldn't work. Their primary purpose is to modify tilenums and sprite IDs to new ones created in the Plus versions that don't overlap the original game's range. My secondary goals are adding coop spawns to NW, fixing map corruption, and adjusting sprite angles. I also made minor changes where I saw fit, but it's been a long time and I don't remember what I did. After I write a map comparison tool for the beta assets, I'll likely use it to compare my patches and your edits and make a new set that does everything and only things that it should.

[NUKEMDAVE]

Hendricks266, on 23 April 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

You've changed many more things than I have, and things that I wouldn't have.

There were some things I didn't want to do either, but I really didn't have a choice. Yes, I did make some minor changes to certain maps to make them look better. I'm not putting down the creators of the maps, but there was a bit of sloppiness here and there. For example, the roofs on a few of those little boats at the end of each level in Caribbean had uneven slopes, not to mention the nuke buttons on them were all different sizes.

Anyway, to try to steer things back on topic, I wonder if maphacks and patches can be a thing of the past from now on? I doubt the new leadership of 3DR will mind anyone including any of the original maps that have been edited in any future project someone may come up with. The Duke's Nightmare map by Commander is on Steam Workshop and it's two original maps combined. I don't see anyone complaining.

[TerminX]

NUKEMDAVE, on 23 April 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

There were some things I didn't want to do either, but I really didn't have a choice. Yes, I did make some minor changes to certain maps to make them look better. I'm not putting down the creators of the maps, but there was a bit of sloppiness here and there. For example, the roofs on a few of those little boats at the end of each level in Caribbean had uneven slopes, not to mention the nuke buttons on them were all different sizes.

Anyway, to try to steer things back on topic, I wonder if maphacks and patches can be a thing of the past from now on? I doubt the new leadership of 3DR will mind anyone including any of the original maps that have been edited in any future project someone may come up with. The Duke's Nightmare map by Commander is on Steam Workshop and it's two original maps combined. I don't see anyone complaining.

You didn't have a choice but to make graphical changes based on your own personal preference, even though you "didn't want to do" them?

Okay............

[NUKEMDAVE]

TerminX, on 23 April 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

You didn't have a choice but to make graphical changes based on your own personal preference, even though you "didn't want to do" them?

Okay............

I was referring to things I had to change for multiplayer that ended up changing how the maps played in single player, but there was no way I could avoid them due to how the maps are designed.

[MetHy]

I'm sorry if this off-topic but, what?! You made changes to Caribbean Life's singleplayer due to multiplayer? What changes exactly? Couldn't this have been avoided by only making them trigger in multiplayer?

[NUKEMDAVE]

MetHy, on 23 April 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

I'm sorry if this off-topic but, what?! You made changes to Caribbean Life's singleplayer due to multiplayer? What changes exactly? Couldn't this have been avoided by only making them trigger in multiplayer?

Nothing serious. I made locked doors not lock again because players could either trap themselves or lock others out in certain areas in multiplayer. If there was a way to change that where it would have only affected it in multiplayer, I would have. I looked for information on multiplayer level editing, but couldn't find much. Termit also made switches only show in co-op mode by setting them to pal 2, so I used that as much as I could when switches needed to be added. However, it was possible to get stuck behind on a few of the elevators in The Wavemistress map in single player, so you'll notice a switch near the bottom of each elevator now in single player. It was possible to hit the switch on the elevator, jump off and get trapped. The map that was changed the most was Lost Lagoon. If anyone doesn't like the maps, they can just delete them and the originals should load. My maps still play the same basically, but you may be able to backtrack in some of them that you couldn't backtrack in before.

[TerminX]

Those changes are not unreasonable. What about the graphical ones?

[NUKEMDAVE]

TerminX, on 23 April 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Those changes are not unreasonable. What about the graphical ones?

Stretched/squeezed textures, unaligned textures, sprites that were clipping through walls, etc. I panned some of the wall textures so they would wrap around the walls properly. The smokestacks on the little boats are one example. It looks way better now. The only reason I brought it up here in this thread was because I was offering to maybe help if you decide to eventually upload any of these beta maps to Steam Workshop or something. They'd be better with full multiplayer support.

[MetHy]

NUKEMDAVE, on 23 April 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

Nothing serious. I made locked doors not lock again because players could either trap themselves or lock others out in certain areas in multiplayer. If there was a way to change that where it would have only affected it in multiplayer, I would have.

If in singleplayer the player can now backtrack even though he wasn't supposed to I say that is "serious".

I just checked Lost Lagoon quickly and I'll take the example of the door locked by the blue key. In the original game, what would happen is that when you use the key the doors opens; and once the player is inside the room it closes again and you can't re-open it; which i understand in multiplayer could get other players stuck behind.

I haven't checked how that door was made but I could guess that the key serves as a first activator to open the door and that the there is touchplate in the room which closes it.

So what you did is; made it so that the player can manually re-open the door.
The problem with your solution is that it also affects singleplayer. In that room, the original intent of the mapper was that the player should feel stuck for a quite a little while in between 2 locked doors. That is completely ruined in your version. It also means that in singleplayer you are able to backtrack out of that room; like to go get supplies or just to wander around; while you're not supposed to. You're supposed to be stuck inside and have no choice but to venture forth in the hope that you find a working exit; indiana jones style; and your solution affects also gameplay (being able to go back to get supplies).

Just right off the bat I can think of a better solution; one that doesn't change singleplay; you could have made it so that either the blue key lock or another touchplate from inside the room opens a small pannel outside (in a way that the singleplayer wouldn't notice the difference), pannel which shows up a switch tagged 2 (so that it only appears in multiplayer) which can re-activate the door for players that might be stuck on the other side.
Now I just came up with this but perhaps I could find an even better solution; but at least this one doesn't affect singleplayer.

You used a lazy solution "oh well just let's just make the door re-openable" that affects singleplayer in several ways while it shouldn't. You say that I can just delete the maps; yeah, because I know about it, because I was just told in this forum; but what about 99,999% players out there who are now going to play Life's A Beach on Megaton in singleplayer (and that's also the only way left to buy the game as the add on isn't even on gog) and who will now play the episode with moments like this that go against the original mapper's will and who will not even be aware of it?

and I'll try not to get into the topic of "fixing" misaligned textures and the size of nukebuttons...

[DukeNukem64]

I never intended to buy Megaton for MP. My first time trying the add-ons. Sucks that I didn't even play the original.. Feel kind of cheated in some way. I want to try all the original ones

[MetHy]

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm insisting too much on this example here; but I just thought of a consequence your change in that example can have which is even worse.
What happens is, after using the blue key and going into the room, the 2nd door (the one you have go through to keep going in the level) takes a little while to open.
I clearly remember the effect that room had one me the first time I played the add-on 15 years ago, like that I said you're supposed to feel stuck. Because the 2nd door is closed I remember thinking I was stuck and trying to push every goddamn wall in the room to try and find out how to get out, like there is some kind of "secret" passage or way to open that door. It even took me several playthroughs to realize what was really going on with that 2nd door (that's how important the effect that room is supposed to give is).
Now; since the door takes time to open; and since in your example the player can now backtrack; a "quick" player, someone with less patience, could go into the room; could see that the door is closed and that there is literaly nothing in that small room, and could think that he must have missed something further back into the level which opens that 2nd door, or perhaps that the bluekey triggers something else in the level; and since now he's able to backtrack, he could be misleaded into thinking that and could backtrack further into the level for no reasons. It might not happen to many people, but it can happen.

I'm sorry man, I've got nothing personal against you; I barely even know who you are; but Life's A Beach is my all time favourite Build-made 'thing' and this just ticks me off.

[Forge]

^and that's why Fredrick shouldn't use "random" people out of the community to work on any of this stuff if he needs a "clean-up" crew for the new material.
people want to put their own touch on things and it also opens themselves to criticism
small simple stuff like what MetHy is talking about can add up and make a huge impact

the number of mappers who can stay true to the original 3DR style and intent is small, and "volunteers" should be avoided like the plague.
a "resume" of a mappers previous work should be considered before being approached
(same for coders, modelers, etc)

i'm not some kind of authority on the subject, but I feel the same way as MetHy. When aspects of the game and the way things were intended to work starts to get deviated from the original, it's a cause for concern

[Fox]

I believe that anything should remain exactly the same in Single-Player, and anything new should only be visible in multiplayer.

[Hendricks266]

Fox, on 24 April 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

I believe that anything should remain exactly the same in Single-Player, and anything new should only be visible in multiplayer.

Agreed. I don't take issue with making demonstrable improvements in something like Vaca+, since that's what you're signing up for in the first place. But changes to a released version of the game should remain as minimal as possible to only fix what is actually broken. For example, Jimmy's widescreen sprites only fill in parts that 3DR had cropped out. There are far more improvements he could have made to the tiles, but those are... reserved. Furthermore, when Termit approached me about adding coop spawns to NW, my proposal was to add only code to fix the problem--simply reusing the same spawn point multiple times without killing the player.

[Fox]

Hendricks266, on 24 April 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Furthermore, when Termit approached me about adding coop spawns to NW, my proposal was to add only code to fix the problem--simply reusing the same spawn point multiple times without killing the player.

Why haven't you done that yet in Eduke32?

[Hendricks266]

College.

[Fox]

Personal life always getting in the way of real stuff.

[DukeNukem64]

Fox, on 24 April 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Personal life always getting the way of real stuff.

Thanks man saved my shit day :-)

[NUKEMDAVE]

MetHy, on 24 April 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

Just right off the bat I can think of a better solution; one that doesn't change singleplay; you could have made it so that either the blue key lock or another touchplate from inside the room opens a small pannel outside (in a way that the singleplayer wouldn't notice the difference), pannel which shows up a switch tagged 2 (so that it only appears in multiplayer) which can re-activate the door for players that might be stuck on the other side.
Now I just came up with this but perhaps I could find an even better solution; but at least this one doesn't affect singleplayer.

That might have worked for co-op, but not Dukematch. There are Dukematch spawns beyond that door. You have to be able to travel both ways. If there was a different way to do it without affecting single player, I would have. I was doing my best to avoid changing single player, believe me. As far as I remember, I did try doing something like what you suggested. I think I did experiment with switches, but I couldn't get them to work unless I changed the activator sprite, which would have still made it possible to travel
backwards in single player.

Like I said, it was just that one map that was changed the most. As far as I remember, all of the other maps play the same in single player, excluding not being able to re-lock some doors. It was just that one map that I had problems with.

[Jimmy]

In reference to the discussion on the last page and in my opinion, the scope of any project like that should be "restoring intended content/behaviour/whatever" which is why I made sure I only added what wasn't there on the widescreen sprites, not what I thought could or should be there. The end result is seamless to someone who doesn't know any better. You look at the sprites and think "Wow, I didn't know that weapon looked so cool/big/whatever."

[Fox]

Wanna try widescreening Duke 64 weapons?

[Jimmy]

Hell yeah I do. That hadn't even occurred to me.

[NUKEMDAVE]

Jimmy, on 24 April 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

In reference to the discussion on the last page and in my opinion, the scope of any project like that should be "restoring intended content/behaviour/whatever" which is why I made sure I only added what wasn't there on the widescreen sprites, not what I thought could or should be there. The end result is seamless to someone who doesn't know any better. You look at the sprites and think "Wow, I didn't know that weapon looked so cool/big/whatever."

Whatever I did change was small and not that noticeable unless you've studied every little thing in each of the original maps. I asked several people if they've ever noticed that the sizes of the nuke buttons on all of the boats were all different. They said they never noticed it. I wouldn't have changed things like that, but I made Termit aware that I was going to make minimal improvements to textures and such, and he seemed ok with it.

If anyone wants to continue discussion of this, let's discuss it in one of the Megaton threads or something.

[Forge]

seamless and clean:

Jimmy, on 24 April 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

In reference to the discussion on the last page and in my opinion, the scope of any project like that should be "restoring intended content/behaviour/whatever" which is why I made sure I only added what wasn't there on the widescreen sprites, not what I thought could or should be there. The end result is seamless to someone who doesn't know any better.

not seamless:

NUKEMDAVE, on 24 April 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

That might have worked for co-op, but not Dukematch. There are Dukematch spawns beyond that door. You have to be able to travel both ways. If there was a different way to do it without affecting single player, I would have. I was doing my best to avoid changing single player, believe me.

i don't mean to target you as a personal attack, but i do mean to target you as an example.
What you did changed the game. minor/major is in the eye of the beholder, but change it you did.
You manned up and openly admitted what you did which is commendable.
the problem is you opened yourself to criticism and now feel you have to defend yourself.
hindsight being what it is, you should have swallowed a little pride earlier and asked for help to get the changes put into the map without affecting it.

[MetHy]

NUKEMDAVE, on 24 April 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

If there was a different way to do it without affecting single player, I would have. I was doing my best to avoid changing single player, believe me.

And yet, I just made a fix for that example. In this fix, for that example, SP is back to what it was in the original map; in DM I made it so that you can travel both ways, and in co-op too (but I'm actually thinking that, even in coop, players shouldn't be able to open the door from inside but only from outside for players that got left behind or died; since in SP it's not possible to open it from inside in coop it shouldn't be possible either since coop should be as close as possible to SP. But I can do that, too)

I tested my fix in SP, DM & coop, directly in Megaton. Works fine.

However, while I was testing my fix, in the same map I found 2 more issues which are consequences of your work; they are more minor issues because they only appear either in co-op or in DM; but they're issues nonetheless.
I also found something you forgot to include in the map which would make DM better.

NUKEMDAVE, on 24 April 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Whatever I did change was small and not that noticeable unless you've studied every little thing in each of the original maps. I asked several people if they've ever noticed that the sizes of the nuke buttons on all of the boats were all different. They said they never noticed it. I wouldn't have changed things like that, but I made Termit aware that I was going to make minimal improvements to textures and such, and he seemed ok with it.

I don't understand this. Then why ? Why doing those changes if nobody would notice anyway? You said you wouldn't have done things like that; and also say nobody asked you to do them. So, why?

[SwissCm]

Jesus people are really touchy about modifications to the games. I mean, the code the port runs on is in itself not the same as the original release and likely has quite a few small differences which may affect gameplay. The visuals, particularly in 3D Rendered mode, are vastly different to the original too. Not to mention that the changes are reversible by deleting the modified files.


This is a big argument over nothing. Nothing is being hidden, nothing is lost, the changes are utterly insignificant. Get over it.

[OpenMaw]

SwissCm, on 25 April 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Jesus people are really touchy about modifications to the games. I mean, the code the port runs on is in itself not the same as the original release and likely has quite a few small differences which may affect gameplay. The visuals, particularly in 3D Rendered mode, are vastly different to the original too. Not to mention that the changes are reversible by deleting the modified files.

This is a big argument over nothing. Nothing is being hidden, nothing is lost, the changes are utterly insignificant. Get over it.

Indeed.

Little texture tweaks and adding in flow-fixing teleporters/switches/doors for co-op is not that big of a deal. I honestly think this is all a little asinine.


HOWEVER, with this alpha/beta/prototype stuff, I would prefer things are left exactly as they were and released in their as-is state if possible. Dust still stuck to the grooves, and so forth. That's just me, of course.

[MetHy]

SwissCm, on 25 April 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

the changes are utterly insignificant.[/size]

He was hired to make multiplayer gameplay for those add-ons. What he did can be summarized in putting DM/Coop teleporters accessible on both sides of obstacles while making doors locked for a reason, now unlockable. You can't just do that, it's not that simple. In the first example I used you can now backtrack even though you're not supposed to, even in singleplayer even though he wasn't supposed to influence SP; in the 2nd issue I found (which I found while I wasn't even looking for issues) a teleporter can make you skip a part of the map in coop, a cool part for that matter, and the way it's done a player who doesn't know the map can easily find and use the teleporter before the door to the path that gets skipped is open.
I wouldn't call that insignificant especially considering something can be done to make things proper.

As for things being 'reversible', it's not that simple, either. We know about it, but not the vast majority of Megaton players. Also if you simply delete the files, well, the episodes can not be played properly in multiplayer, either.

[Kralex]

Jesus, just shut up about this. It's a fucking 20 year old expansion pack for a DOS game re-released on Steam to breathe a little bit of life back into it. You know how to do it, and since you're honestly one of the only people on the planet who cares about it that's great for you. Do it. Its fixed. The "vast majority of Megaton players" would probably play the expansion once, if that, and wouldn't give a shit about such an asinine little inconsequential thing. Can we focus on the coolness of all this beta stuff like this thread is meant to be focused on.