[Sixty Four]

Fox, on 24 April 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Wanna try widescreening Duke 64 weapons?

yes do it hehe

[NUKEMDAVE]

I don't mean to bump this old thread, but I think this post will be worth it. I'm not sure what the status is on who's editing the expansion pack maps for Megaton Edition now or if they're even being worked on, but I did go back through the whole Lost Lagoon map in Caribbean. As far as I know, I have it completely back to the way it originally played in single player. My tidying-up of the sprites, textures, and sectors is still there, though, but I went over everything I did before and did it better. It's definitely a big improvement.

Here it is if anyone wants to try it or take a look:

Link removed. Check first post of thread for download link.

I haven't had the chance to test it in multiplayer, but I'm sure there aren't any issues. I welcome it to be added to Megaton if nobody else beat me to it. I remember MetHy said he tried to correct one part of the map, but I went all the way through and improved on everything I did. I don't think you'll be disappointed. The teleporters that I added for multiplayer that allow you to skip the part where the ceiling can crush you is the only big thing that was left in.

If I remember correctly, this was the only map out of all three of the expansion packs that I screwed up on the most. It was also the first one I started out with, so yeah...

[NUKEMDAVE]

NUKEMDAVE, on 25 April 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

I used this trick to deal with level-ending sectors in Dukematch:



It's an invisible, blocked switch set to pal 1. It blocks someone from walking in there and ending the game in Dukematch.

I came up with a different trick:



I put a dead, invisible, Dukematch switch in front of the switch that opens this area where you end the level. The invisible switch blocks the switch behind it so you can't flip it anymore in Dukematch. I set the invisible switch to an empty sound tag to make it silent. I did the same thing throughout all of the maps in all three of the expansion packs. It worked in front of keycard scanners, too. There was just one map in Nuclear Winter that I left an invisible barrier and that's at the end of Land of the Forgotten Toys.

If anyone wants these new changes, here you go:

Link removed. Check first post of thread for download link.

I know, it still could've been done the Red Light District way by building a new room in each map and placing a Dukematch spawn sprite in the room with a touchplate that activates a sector that blocks off the level end, but this works. It's better than what I had before and still no additional changes had to be made to the maps.

[TerminX]

NUKEMDAVE, on 04 November 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

I came up with a different trick:



I put a dead, invisible, Dukematch switch in front of the switch that opens this area where you end the level. The invisible switch blocks the switch behind it so you can't flip it anymore in Dukematch. I set the invisible switch to an empty sound tag to make it silent. I did the same thing throughout all of the maps in all three of the expansion packs. It worked in front of keycard scanners, too. There was just one map in Nuclear Winter that I left an invisible barrier and that's at the end of Land of the Forgotten Toys.

If anyone wants these new changes, here you go:

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

I know, it still could've been done the Red Light District way by building a new room in each map and placing a Dukematch spawn sprite in the room with a touchplate that activates a sector that blocks off the level end, but this works. It's better than what I had before and still no additional changes had to be made to the maps.

That switch idea was pretty decent. Make sure that the player can't get closer to the real switch than they can to the fake one, at any time, from any angle, or they could possibly still hit it.

[NUKEMDAVE]

TerminX, on 04 November 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

That switch idea was pretty decent. Make sure that the player can't get closer to the real switch than they can to the fake one, at any time, from any angle, or they could possibly still hit it.

Yeah, I checked it thoroughly and I couldn't flip it. I could at first, but I had the invisible one the exact same size as the visible one. I just made the invisible one slightly bigger and it fixed it.

[Fox]

Wow, I just looked into the editor and the effect in the first vacation level sucked. They added a floor rise effect instead of floor lower, so they were forced to touchplate on a random place the player must cross. Additionally the touchplate requires the player to stand on the floor, so on theory it should be possible to avoid its activation by jumping.

What I would have done: first I would remove the touchplate, change the door to floor lower, and add some Deathmatch-only switches to open it from both sides. Secondly, in the room where the level ends, but before the sector that triggers the end of level, I would add an area with a nukebutton which can only be opened with a Deathmatch-only switch. Player 2 would start in that area (like in E4L8), and a touchplate would lock the passage (only one side) of the sector that triggers the end of level (like in E1L2).

[NUKEMDAVE]

Well, there really isn't a big need for that area to be open anyway. There aren't any items to pick up in there (the same goes for all of the other areas near a level-ending sector throughout the expansions' maps, excluding in Hell to the Chief with one 30+ health pickup near the end that gets blocked off). I'll agree that it probably would've been better to do it that way, though. Not arguing with that.

Edit:

Here's a very good example of why I tampered with the textures:



Don't just pay attention to that one texture that shouldn't be there, but check out all of the bricks/blocks you can see and compare to the bottom image. Hadn't there been big issues like this, I wouldn't have messed with anything. I understand wanting to keep things original, though, and I respect that.

[MetHy]

Fox, on 04 November 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

Wow, I just looked into the editor and the effect in the first vacation level sucked. They added a floor rise effect instead of floor lower, so they were forced to touchplate on a random place the player must cross. Additionally the touchplate requires the player to stand on the floor, so on theory it should be possible to avoid its activation by jumping.

What I would have done: first I would remove the touchplate, change the door to floor lower, and add some Deathmatch-only switches to open it from both sides. Secondly, in the room where the level ends, but before the sector that triggers the end of level, I would add an area with a nukebutton which can only be opened with a Deathmatch-only switch. Player 2 would start in that area (like in E4L8), and a touchplate would lock the passage (only one side) of the sector that triggers the end of level (like in E1L2).

The problem with that is that you're influencing how things work in SP. imo it shouldn't be the business of a multiplayer fix to deal with that, no matter how better one think it may be.
Also, you're creating a whole new area for the 2p start, imo changes should work but while being as minimal as possible (also depending on how it's done that 2p start may influence DM balance if the start point is different, though it may not if done well). It isn't anyone's episode but Sunstorm Interactive's (and whoever owns the right to it nowadays). The smaller, most simple and less noticeable the fix is, the better it is.

NUKEMDAVE, on 04 November 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

Well, there really isn't a big need for that area to be open anyway. There aren't any items to pick up in there (the same goes for all of the other areas near a level-ending sector throughout the expansions' maps, excluding in Hell to the Chief with one 30+ health pickup near the end that gets blocked off). I'll agree that it probably would've been better to do it that way, though. Not arguing with that.

Edit:

Here's a very good example of why I tampered with the textures:

*screenshot*

Don't just pay attention to that one texture that shouldn't be there, but check out all of the bricks/blocks you can see and compare to the bottom image. Hadn't there been big issues like this, I wouldn't have messed with anything. I understand wanting to keep things original, though, and I respect that.

Honestly, Nuclear Winter is shit and broken in countless ways. I wouldn't know where to start and where to stop if I wanted to 'fix' it, I think pretty much EVERYTHING would need to be redone... That's why I don't agree with such cosmetic changes, as minimal as they are. Those misaligned textures are part of the 'Nuclear Winter experience'. The question is, if you change this, why not improve shading, architecture or even the sprites themselves. Besides, I had honestly never noticed those misaligned textures in particular before while there are much more obvious issues that won't be touched because it would be considered too much to be respectful to the original material, so to me it doesn't really make sense to fix this and not that.
Trying to fix and improve NW would be an interesting fan-made patch though, released as a mod, but not as the official sold release. It was bad, probably because it was rushed and they ran out of time (though I also suspect a bad management of priorities on their part; due to how there is some pretty insane and un-necessary time-wasting shading in some levels while other things are unfinished...), that's how it is and a multiplayer fix isn't there to rewrite DN3D history. I understand the excitement and the interested one can have in such fixes though, but it's a different job.

[Mr. Nukem Roses]

yeah. Nuclear Winter was the most buggy addon expansion for Duke 3D. you couldn't go so far within that game without seeing something wrong. NW was made obviously in a rush that they didn't take there time on it and saw the problems it had. to me, i think that not just Winter, but the other expansions and even the main game could use some touchups. fixing textures, giving some nice shading here and there. and make it friendly with all the games modes that 3D has. and i wouldn't really care if it was done fan made or official. and for the game modes. Co-Op could use some fixing as well. especially if say, like your co-op partner gets shrunked. there should be a patch or something that makes it to where you can't step on them

[Fox]

MetHy, on 05 November 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

The problem with that is that you're influencing how things work in SP. imo it shouldn't be the business of a multiplayer fix to deal with that, no matter how better one think it may be.

I am not.

MetHy, on 05 November 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Also, you're creating a whole new area for the 2p start, imo changes should work but while being as minimal as possible (also depending on how it's done that 2p start may influence DM balance if the start point is different, though it may not if done well). It isn't anyone's episode but Sunstorm Interactive's (and whoever owns the right to it nowadays). The smaller, most simple and less noticeable the fix is, the better it is.

I think it's okay to add rooms for the nukebuttons because it would be consistent with the original Duke 3D episodes. But these areas would be invisible in single-player.

[MetHy]

Fox, on 05 November 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

I am not.

It's minimal but you are. If I understand correctly, it would be possible to avoid the touchplate so that the doors is open when you get there? (IIRC this happened to me once). Knowledgeable players would use this at their advantage, and speedrunners definitely would. These people would tell you it's fun to figure out and use those kind of tricks, it's not up to a multiplayer fix to decide whether or not this should be taken away from them.

For the 2nd thing, what I meant was about the new room for the 2p start. Even if it's made so that it's invisible to the player and that he ends up in the same spot as before, it means creating a new sector. If it's possible to have the same result without having to create a new sector, might as well do that for the sake of minimal changes to the original game.

[Fox]

MetHy, on 05 November 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

It's minimal but you are. If I understand correctly, it would be possible to avoid the touchplate so that the doors is open when you get there?

No, I was wrong about that.

MetHy, on 05 November 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

For the 2nd thing, what I meant was about the new room for the 2p start. Even if it's made so that it's invisible to the player and that he ends up in the same spot as before, it means creating a new sector. If it's possible to have the same result without having to create a new sector, might as well do that for the sake of minimal changes to the original game.

I disagree. You must have a nukebutton in deathmatch, so you need a new area. I am mimicking how 3DRealms made the levels support multiplayer.

[NUKEMDAVE]

I moved the download link for the maps to the first post of this thread. I made a small update, too. Last night when I had to move a Dukematch spawn point in Hell to the Chief, I forgot to add a switch to that room. Fixed.

Other than me tweaking sprites/textures/sectors and the debate over whether or not the nuke button should be added, the maps are still in a far better state than the ones that are still in Megaton Edition. It would be nice to see an update with these changes, but I'll have to try to find out what's going on. I'm assuming my old maps were also added to the PS3/Vita version. Those should be updated, too.

[NUKEMDAVE]

Ok, I just finished testing all of the maps. There were still a few things that I missed and some things I needed to do over.

This was the last invisible wall that I left in Land of Forgotten Toys, but I got rid of it with a better solution:



The bottom image is right before you get to the area in the top image, and those bars are actually Dukematch switches that have been darkened. I tested it and you can't get through them. Not even after being shrunk.

The updated download link is in the first post of the thread. After making all of these improvements, I'm cringing at the fact that the outdated maps are still in Megaton Edition. If the other person who was going to work on the maps never did or didn't finish them yet, it's crucial that these get into Megaton Edition. They're all done and in way better condition now. I don't even like the thought that some people may be playing the old maps in the PS3/Vita version right now.

[Trebor_UK]

Nice fixes. I agree fixes should be made to old maps, but not gameplay changing ones (except maps which need minor tweaking to be multiplayer friendly, that is a must) Cosmetic fixes such as misalinged textures or whatever are always nice to see.

[NUKEMDAVE]

Well, the maps are back to normal now when it comes to single player gameplay. All except a few switches here and there that I changed so that they won't lock something back after you've already unlocked it. It was the best solution in most of the cases I did that with. The latest fixes were just updated in the game, so I hope everyone is more happy now. Even if I did want to go back and revert the textures and everything to the way they were, it would take forever and would be impossible to remember everything that was changed. I can say that some things just weren't avoidable of changing. There were issues that weren't visible to the single player's point-of-view, but were visible to the Dukematch/Coop player's point-of-view and had to be fixed. I personally see the changes that I made as giving the maps their final touches that they never received.

Going back to the nuke button debate, there really isn't a need for it to be added to the levels when it comes to Megaton Edition, since the nuke button is disabled in Dukematch anyway. Besides, not every vanilla Duke3D level had one. Stadium being the first that came to my mind. Outside of Megaton Edition, I suppose the argument of adding a nuke button is stronger, but as a Dukematch player, I can say that a nuke button wouldn't be missed. You'll occasionally get into a match with someone who just wants to annoy you and the last thing you want is a nuke button in the map so they can end the match. The same goes for having rooms in maps where players can lock themselves in and you have no way of killing them. I did my best to get rid of all of those potential instances in the maps. I think Dukematch players will be pleased. Of course, some of the maps just aren't ideal for Dukematch.

[MetHy]

NUKEMDAVE, on 11 November 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

Well, the maps are back to normal now when it comes to single player gameplay.

You mean Megaton got updated with the latest updates you made for these maps?

[NUKEMDAVE]

MetHy, on 11 November 2014 - 02:31 AM, said:

You mean Megaton got updated with the latest updates you made for these maps?

Yes, they were updated earlier in the last update. I'm glad, too. It was getting to me that the old maps were still in there. If you're going to go look in the Lost Lagoon map, you're still going to find the multiplayer teleports that allow you to skip the crusher part, but all of the other complaints in the map have been dealt with. That map and Mr. Splashy's are the only two maps that have multiplayer teleports. The pair of teleports in Mr. Splashy's are near the end of the map where you drop down to the boat at the end. I was going to add a jetpack down there, but I wasn't able to make it back through those holes on a jetpack. A certain part of it wasn't high enough to make it through.

[JoJo the Idiot Circus Boy]

I would love to play the maps some time, We should do like a meet up or something Me Dave Rumble Duke64 and others

[NUKEMDAVE]

Duke64 Galactic Alliance, on 11 November 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

I would love to play the maps some time, We should do like a meet up or something Me Dave Rumble Duke64 and others

Yeah, I'd like to see a full 8 players go through all of the maps in the expansions in both Dukematch and Coop. Especially The Wavemistress map in Caribbean. If there's any serious issues left, it would be with the Coop spawns in that map. I'm pretty sure they're ok, though.

[JoJo the Idiot Circus Boy]

In Coop The Wavemistress 1 to 4 is good for all I know just don't know about 5 though 8, Im worry about those 4.

[NUKEMDAVE]

I just realized something that I can do better about the teleports in Lost Lagoon. I'll fix it tonight and update my pack. I'll put a touchplate in the crusher room that opens the first teleport door and I'll get rid of the switch for it in Coop. After I do that, it should wrap things up. I need to do something about where I put the first switch that activates the blue keycard door, too. My bad.

[NUKEMDAVE]

Ok, Lost Lagoon couldn't be better now and I just updated my pack with the latest changes. Hopefully, Termit can update this map as soon as possible in a quiet update.

Here's all of the switches I changed to improve Coop:







All of those switches are hidden in the wall now and they become accessible via touchplates after you go through those permanently locked doors.

Here's the teleport at the crusher now:



I did the same thing here. I put a touchplate in the crusher sector so that teleport door opens after you get trapped in there. The only players who are going to skip the cool parts of the map now are the slowpokes who get left behind.

Mr. Nukem Roses and I tested it all out and it's all functioning properly.

Edit:

I recorded a video, too:

[Fox]

These multiplayer switches right next to access card switches are very ugly. If you want to use some gimmick, just make the touchplates pal 1 and they will only work on single-player (as opposite to how pal 1 generally works).

[Micky C]

I've never heard about that before.

[JoJo the Idiot Circus Boy]

I like to see fox idea

[NUKEMDAVE]

Fox, on 12 November 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

These multiplayer switches right next to access card switches are very ugly. If you want to use some gimmick, just make the touchplates pal 1 and they will only work on single-player (as opposite to how pal 1 generally works).

If you mean set the touchplates that make the doors permanently close to pal 1, wouldn't that change the gameplay in Coop? The complaint I got before was just that. I changed the doors so that players were able to backtrack when they were supposed to feel trapped. What I did above achieved what needed to be achieved and it should put that map to rest finally.

As for where I put the extra switch for the blue keycard door, there really wasn't a better place to put it. The same goes for the extra red keycard door switch. I could have put them on the opposite ends of the doors, but I thought that would be worse. I think it's fine where they are because the switches being close to the keycard scanners tell the players that they are both related. Not only that, but the players' memory of the map is going to lead them to that location. The only purpose in the switches is to allow players to get through in multiplayer anyway and I don't think anyone is going to care about the switches other than for that purpose.

I think an exception can be made on this map because there's no perfect solution to it. If you go and look at how they designed the beginning of the map to achieve the arch coming out of the water effect, you'll see what I'm talking about. Out off all of the maps throughout all three expansions, this map has been a bitch to deal with.

Edit:

Until the map gets updated again with the new changes, this is what's still in the old map that's currently in the game and it's not good compared to what I recently did:



My original plan was to have those switches inside of the pillar so they can be used after you blow the pillar up, but I was having problems with it. I think they disappeared a few times after blowing it up. I don't like what I did here either and I'm sure nobody else will. Also, the switches for the three question mark doors are just stuck on the wall in the old map instead of hidden in the walls and activated with touchplates like in the latest map. Another thing, I made a mistake and accidentally gave a multiplayer switch near the beginning of the map the same lotag as one of the activators in the blue keycard door and it was opening it. I think that problem may or may not still be in the current map in the game, so it really needs to be updated. I'm hoping this is the last update that needs to be done to that map.

[JoJo the Idiot Circus Boy]

is that alien I just killed at :48?

[Fox]

There was supposed to be babes in there.

[JoJo the Idiot Circus Boy]

I see