[LAW]

I like the mixed looks of that Beta version. Looks better than Lameduke, but still more crappy than the final build.

What is the best Beta-inspired mod? This: https://forums.duke4...ssets-released/ ?

[LakiSoft]

Marphy Black, on 27 August 2021 - 05:29 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure the first six screenshots in this article's gallery were the ones Fred posted:
https://dukenukem.fa...ies#Screenshots

It looks like they were also needlessly converted to PNG, but at least there was no quality loss.

Am I only one who those screenshots from Duke Wikia never show up no matter web browser i use? Literally they are just blank screens.

[MrFlibble]

LAW, on 28 August 2021 - 06:00 AM, said:

I like the mixed looks of that Beta version. Looks better than Lameduke, but still more crappy than the final build.

I wouldn't actually call it "crappy". It is certainly more polished than the Lameduke version, but it's only part of the story. What you're witnessing here is the transition from the Doom era to literally the pinnacle of 2.5D firt-person games.

[TerminX]

[oasiz]

Ok, this is pretty cool.

[oasiz]

Reposting these from discord...
Level lists for 3 betas

Seems to be the same as shown on sept 10 vid

definelevelname 0 0 E1L1.map POLARIS
definelevelname 0 1 E1L2.map CONTROL CENTER
definelevelname 0 2 E1L3.map SUBWAY SEWER
definelevelname 0 3 E1L4.map SPACE DOCK
definelevelname 0 4 E1L5.map SCIENCE STAT 1
definelevelname 0 5 E1L6.map POWER SUPPLY
definelevelname 0 6 E1L7.map BAD BOSS 1
definelevelname 0 7 E1L8.map BONUS LEVEL 1
definelevelname 0 8 E1L9.map EXTRA 1 9

definelevelname 1 0 E2L1.map DOWNTOWN SLUM
definelevelname 1 1 E2L2.map CITY SLUM 1
definelevelname 1 2 E2L3.map COP CITY
definelevelname 1 3 E2L4.map SEWAGE CITY
definelevelname 1 4 E2L5.map SUBWAY ONE
definelevelname 1 5 E2L6.map BONAVENTURE
definelevelname 1 6 E2L7.map BOSS ROOFTOP
definelevelname 1 7 E2L8.map BONUS LEVEL 1
definelevelname 1 8 E2L9.map EXTRA 2 9

definelevelname 2 0 E3L1.map PRISON ISLAND
definelevelname 2 1 E3L2.map TANKER 1
definelevelname 2 2 E3L3.map OCEAN FLOOR
definelevelname 2 3 E3L4.map LIQUID SPACE
definelevelname 2 4 E3L5.map MOTHER SHIP 1
definelevelname 2 5 E3L6.map MOTHER SHIP 2
definelevelname 2 6 E3L7.map MOTHER BOSS
definelevelname 2 7 E3L8.map BONUS LEVEL 1
definelevelname 2 8 E3L9.map EXTRA 3 9

NOVEMBER

definelevelname 0 0 E1L1.map CINEMA
definelevelname 0 1 E1L2.map BAR
definelevelname 0 2 E1L3.map PRISON
definelevelname 0 3 E1L4.map LIQUID SPACE 1
definelevelname 0 4 E1L5.map POWER PLANT
definelevelname 0 5 E1L6.map BOSS 1
definelevelname 0 6 E1L7.map SUBWAY
definelevelname 0 7 E1L8.map SECRET 1
definelevelname 0 8 E1L9.map SECRET 2

definelevelname 1 0 E2L1.map MOONBASE 1
definelevelname 1 1 E2L2.map MOONBASE 2
definelevelname 1 2 E2L3.map MOONBASE 3
definelevelname 1 3 E2L4.map SPACE STATION 1
definelevelname 1 4 E2L5.map SPACE STATION 2
definelevelname 1 5 E2L6.map POWER STATION
definelevelname 1 6 E2L7.map BOSS 2
definelevelname 1 7 E2L8.map SECRET 1
definelevelname 1 8 E2L9.map SECRET 2

definelevelname 2 0 E3L1.map PRISON ISLAND
definelevelname 2 1 E3L2.map TANKER 1
definelevelname 2 2 E3L3.map OCEAN FLOOR
definelevelname 2 3 E3L4.map LIQUID SPACE 2
definelevelname 2 4 E3L5.map MOTHER SHIP 1
definelevelname 2 5 E3L6.map MOTHER SHIP 2
definelevelname 2 6 E3L7.map MOTHER BOSS
definelevelname 2 7 E3L8.map BONUS LEVEL 1
definelevelname 2 8 E3L9.map EXTRA 3 9

DECEMBER

definelevelname 0 0 E1L1.map 02:00 HOLLYWOOD HOLOCAUST
definelevelname 0 1 E1L2.map 01:40 MEAN STREETS
definelevelname 0 2 E1L3.map 02:45 DEATH ROW
definelevelname 0 3 E1L4.map 01:10 TOXIC BEACH HEAD
definelevelname 0 4 E1L5.map 01:40 INTO THE ABYSS
definelevelname 0 5 E1L6.map 02:10 BONUS LEVEL: SPACEPORT 2000
definelevelname 0 6 E1L7.map 01:50 BLANK
definelevelname 0 7 E1L8.map 01:15 BLANK

definelevelname 1 0 E2L1.map 00:00 MOONBASE 1
definelevelname 1 1 E2L2.map 00:00 MOONBASE 2
definelevelname 1 2 E2L3.map 00:00 MOONBASE 3
definelevelname 1 3 E2L4.map 00:00 SPACE STATION 1
definelevelname 1 4 E2L5.map 00:00 SPACE STATION 2
definelevelname 1 5 E2L6.map 00:00 POWER STATION
definelevelname 1 6 E2L7.map 00:00 BOSS 2
definelevelname 1 7 E2L8.map 00:00 SECRET 1
definelevelname 1 8 E2L9.map 00:00 SECRET 2

definelevelname 2 0 E3L1.map 00:00 APOGEE ARMS HOTEL
definelevelname 2 1 E3L2.map 00:00 S.P.E.R.M. BANK
definelevelname 2 2 E3L3.map 00:00 SEWAGE COMPANY
definelevelname 2 3 E3L4.map 00:00 THE SEWERS BELOW
definelevelname 2 4 E3L5.map 00:00 RTD SUBWAY
definelevelname 2 5 E3L6.map 00:00 POSTAL
definelevelname 2 6 E3L7.map 00:00 SANTA MONICA PIER
definelevelname 2 7 E3L8.map 00:00 ALIEN
definelevelname 2 8 E3L9.map 00:00 EXTRA 3 9

Big thanks for sharing this info! From here we can pretty much work that:
EP1 = space
EP2 = L.A.
EP3 = underwater crap

They picked maps from EP2/3 to create EP1 (shareware)
EP3 was just a relocated thing, doesn't make sense to have prison TWICE. but they had EP1/2 swapped during november.
Maybe the underwater thing didn't work out and they ditched it for another L.A. campaign, making final EP3 super rushed as it's like 50% new maps... crazy.

Seems that shareware kind of forced the game to change a lot as they stopped playing around and had a game to get out, resulting in a lot of changes (powerups, changed maps and weapons)

[Dzierzan]

Damn, I wish gibs stayed on the ground like in this 0.909 version. Considering those gibs still exist in the final game. Why did they remove that feature? They were afraid of bad performace?

[Dr.Panico]

This is too beautiful.
I like the little details such as the gibs and the sparks from broken machinery.

Also, SnakeHead was pretty freaky in this version.

[Doom64hunter]

oasiz, on 29 December 2021 - 01:19 AM, said:

Big thanks for sharing this info! From here we can pretty much work that:
EP1 = space
EP2 = L.A.
EP3 = underwater crap

They picked maps from EP2/3 to create EP1 (shareware)
EP3 was just a relocated thing, doesn't make sense to have prison TWICE. but they had EP1/2 swapped during november.
Maybe the underwater thing didn't work out and they ditched it for another L.A. campaign, making final EP3 super rushed as it's like 50% new maps... crazy.

Seems that shareware kind of forced the game to change a lot as they stopped playing around and had a game to get out, resulting in a lot of changes (powerups, changed maps and weapons)

It seems like Derelict might have been the theme for the whole of episode 3 at one point, complete with the idea of the Alien Queen.

[oasiz]

AH! So this stupid janky explosion sector effector was used for destroying the computers all along!
I was so sure it was some proto for E1L2 building destruction related things but this got me interested...

From DUKE3D.C

            case 130:
                if(t[0] > 80) { KILLIT(i); }
                else t[0]++;

                x = sc->floorz-sc->ceilingz;

                if( rnd(64) )
                {
                    k = spawn(i,EXPLOSION2);
                    sprite[k].xrepeat = sprite[k].yrepeat = 2+(TRAND&7);
                    sprite[k].z = sc->floorz-(TRAND%x);
                    sprite[k].ang += 256-(TRAND%511);
                    sprite[k].xvel = TRAND&127;
                    ssp(k,CLIPMASK0);
                }
                break;

SE 128 130 and 131 have been labelled as completely useless effects as it insta-triggers on map load but these were never intended to be mapper placed!
A wall can't be an actor, so instead it spawns a dummy SE that handles spawning the explosions??

SE128 then would apply similar ideas but to a maskwall (SE to control glass breakage)

Perhaps someone could whip up an example in CON that spawns these when a wall is shot to see how it works?
It seems to use a different explosion sprite here so I don't know if it will work well at all.

Anyway makes much more sense now...

Quote

It seems like Derelict might have been the theme for the whole of episode 3 at one point, complete with the idea of the Alien Queen.

Don't know.. it seems to be a case similar to SW where they had the snake boss as a big bad thing but ended up using that already on EP1.
EP2/EP3 bosses barely had code in the 0.99 from what I remember.
Blord probably faced a similar fate.
They did have the heli boss in lameduke and judging from map names it was maybe intended for that rooftop battle?

[Doom64hunter]

oasiz, on 29 December 2021 - 05:40 AM, said:

Don't know.. it seems to be a case similar to SW where they had the snake boss as a big bad thing but ended up using that already on EP1.
EP2/EP3 bosses barely had code in the 0.99 from what I remember.
Blord probably faced a similar fate.
They did have the heli boss in lameduke and judging from map names it was maybe intended for that rooftop battle?

Tanker 1 definitely was Derelict though, since we know that this map is really old, and it is an oil tanker. Considering that you exit the map underwater, it makes sense that ocean floor would come next.

I'm guessing that the Mothership was landed or crashed underwater, probably.

[oasiz]

Yeah, I think so!
Underwater crap definitely lasted long, not sure about the queen. Probably just vague ideas.. (Queen was just a recycle of the newbeast after all)

[ReaperAA]

Somebody download/save TerminX's video before it goes down.

On a serious note, it feels great to see late 1995 beta in action. That video answered quite some questions like how did the flamethrower worked at that point and what did E2L1 (which is E1L1 in this beta) looked like. Now I also know that this version of the level was shown in 2 of the screenshots of 11 August 1995
https://dukenukem.fa...m_3D_prototypes

Sad to see the gibs from explosions removed from the final game though (this being a performance reason too perhaps?).

[Doom64hunter]

oasiz, on 29 December 2021 - 06:11 AM, said:

Yeah, I think so!
Underwater crap definitely lasted long, not sure about the queen. Probably just vague ideas.. (Queen was just a recycle of the newbeast after all)

I'm mostly thinking it must have been an old idea because the setting where you fight the Queen in comes very out of left field -- the intro shows a dimly lit alien room, most of the episode takes place in city environments, the last map is some sort of Hive

-- and then the Queen is fought in a flooded cave, being the only water-based enemy besides the shark? Its primary attack makes no sense outside of an underwater area after all.

[Aleks]

Not sure if this is news or I'm just not that much in the loop with the betas, but it's interesting to see Atomic/1.4 machine textures used there, which were for some reason cut from 1.3D (wonder why?). Also it's interesting, as some of them don't seem to have their destroyed versions even in 1.4.

[oasiz]

shadow warrior also has some of those but no destruction frames strangely

[Jimmy]

oasiz, on 29 December 2021 - 05:40 AM, said:

Don't know.. it seems to be a case similar to SW where they had the snake boss as a big bad thing but ended up using that already on EP1.
EP2/EP3 bosses barely had code in the 0.99 from what I remember.
Blord probably faced a similar fate.

Doom64hunter, on 29 December 2021 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'm mostly thinking it must have been an old idea because the setting where you fight the Queen in comes very out of left field -- the intro shows a dimly lit alien room, most of the episode takes place in city environments, the last map is some sort of Hive

-- and then the Queen is fought in a flooded cave, being the only water-based enemy besides the shark? Its primary attack makes no sense outside of an underwater area after all.

It fits in with what we know about the Plutonium Pak, though. It's mostly just leftover assets and ideas thrown together, and anything new was whipped up rather quickly. The queen's attack could be wrote off as a psychic attack out of water, cheap but it works fine.

Dzierzan, on 29 December 2021 - 04:07 AM, said:

Damn, I wish gibs stayed on the ground like in this 0.909 version. Considering those gibs still exist in the final game. Why did they remove that feature? They were afraid of bad performace?

ReaperAA, on 29 December 2021 - 06:59 AM, said:

Sad to see the gibs from explosions removed from the final game though (this being a performance reason too perhaps?).

Pretty safe bet that any "cool" little feature like that was cut due to performance. They wanted as many people to play their game as possible.

[TerminX]

The game was really running like shit when that stuff was cut. Further optimizations that were made after those cuts would have allowed the stuff back in but they were really more focused on all the other stuff that needed more attention.

[oasiz]

Another video was posted on discord today

[NNC]

This has fuckin' made my day. Love that alt-Spaceport, I thought the multi-way elevators, along with that interesting mid-section between the two levels should have stayed.

[NNC]

oasiz, on 29 December 2021 - 06:11 AM, said:

Yeah, I think so!
Underwater crap definitely lasted long, not sure about the queen. Probably just vague ideas.. (Queen was just a recycle of the newbeast after all)

Actually, some of the underwater ideas were pretty cool in LameDuke (levels after Derelict), it at least worth 3 levels (one oil rig type, an underwater mine level, and that famous underwater base level). I think it was a huge missed opportunity.

[oasiz]

Crap is a bit misleading there I'll admit.
I really like the ideas they had there as well and I've had plans for quite some time to give the whole episode a facelift in eduke, utilizing some enemies/weapons and other game play things to create a more "what if" alternate timeline style scenario. I think they were conceptually really cool for a campaign but perhaps having the player doing 80% underground bases was not what they wanted.

It's clear that concepts from here were recycled to E1L4, sort of a spiritual remake in many aspects. I wouldn't be surprised if whole parts were lifted straight considering the LIQUID SPACE heritage.

[Jimmy]

It's interesting how so much stuff from D3D's development cycle that the public mostly never knew about still ended up here or there in one way or another in both official sequels produced by third parties and fan mods.

[oasiz]

As cheesy as it sounds, goes to show that a lot of thought went behind Duke3D in the end.

What might feel like a step back when put on paper was something they legitimately did think about and decided to go against it in the end.

[NNC]

oasiz, on 30 December 2021 - 09:39 AM, said:

Crap is a bit misleading there I'll admit.
I really like the ideas they had there as well and I've had plans for quite some time to give the whole episode a facelift in eduke, utilizing some enemies/weapons and other game play things to create a more "what if" alternate timeline style scenario. I think they were conceptually really cool for a campaign but perhaps having the player doing 80% underground bases was not what they wanted.

It's clear that concepts from here were recycled to E1L4, sort of a spiritual remake in many aspects. I wouldn't be surprised if whole parts were lifted straight considering the LIQUID SPACE heritage.

I think the narrative for the placement of the extra "liquid space" levels would make sense between Derelict and The Queen, since one finished under the deep ocean, the other starts somewhere else. Dark Side and Overlord did this much better IMHO. Not sure about the oil rig level. It would be similar to the outside sections of Derelict, with slightly more stuff going on. The level after it with the nice looking underwater mine is something I would love to see in this game, especially as it had some cool sector effectors not seen anywhere else too. And that famous underwater base that went far beyond Lameduke, I hope TX will show that us in a video too, the last iteration of it... E1L4 is a great level, but it's not a purposed underwater base really, just a flooded place instead with broken windows. For example, you can't see the ocean through the window, and there are no built in exits to the surface or the underwater segment. It's not something we haven't seen a few times already: Duke Caribbean's last level did this well, also the Bredhauer level. But not in a Blum-built official level. They missed the opoortunity to have a Water Torture like explosion though after the shrinker puzzle. That would have been awesome.

[oasiz]

I think this campaign would work well... Least explored theme in the end.
I've actually played around with the flood effect from LD but it's quite broken and unusable in almost any sort of scenario. It should be possible to re-implement this via eduke32 without too much trouble though.
As for E1L4, it's not necessarily an underwater base but if you look in to it more closely you'll see that pretty much everything is a patchwork from EP3
First act features conveyor belts and cranes, these are seen in the last proper map of the episode in LD, the zig-zag room already feels very similar in design to the main crane room in E1L4.

Second act features underwater flooded areas and even has a flooding set piece where you can raise the water level! Obviously ties to the flood FX and various areas seen.
And of course the control rooms are already flooded.

Third act is perhaps the least similar but a lot of the zig-zag patterns are very similar in design between the conveyor belt and flowing water.

Some links for easier comparison
https://lerppu.net/lameduke/
https://lerppu.net/d3dsvg/

Few select pics:

Spoiler

I guess they kind of cannibalized EP3 out of the game by reworking many of the chunks to E1L3-4

[NNC]

E1L4 is interesting when I looked it from Mapster. First, I can easily see the initial submarine area and the main area with the control rooms connected both underwater and above water (they are connected above water, but only through a secret path that can be blasted, and had 3 secret tags on it). There are many similar cases in the game. For example in Sewer (which you remember I was toying with) the rectangular corridors at the yellow key door down can be connected to make a better sense of place. In Red Light District, the bar can be connected with the pool table area, and the ugly nonsensical maze like place would suddenly makes a lot of sense. Ever since I discovered that, I can't unsee that and play the level with my own hacking.

It's not as clear in E1L4, but the initial sub area doesn't make sense, even less so than in the end of E1L3 (it had some underwater gates at least), since it's just an isolated little lake. If you connect it to the other area, the whole place would look much bigger, with of course much tougher initial fight. If you put solid windows around the control rooms, you still have to collect the blue keycard, but the switch that raise the water level might be placed in the other control room. In fact, the two main control rooms are not connected together, and that might be the level's biggest shortcoming. I might toy with this in the future, you made me very well interested...

[oasiz]

End of E1L3 is a retrofit, you can actually sort of restore a prison island look just by opening up the area slightly with the editor.
N1 and E1L3 have a surprisingly lot in common once you dig in more.

Attached File(s)

•  1.png (565.36K)
  Number of downloads: 96
•  2.png (608.97K)
  Number of downloads: 82
•  3.png (477.12K)
  Number of downloads: 83

[NNC]

Just wow.

[oasiz]

It's funny because the turrets also are conveniently positioned to guard the outside.