[MetHy]

Inspector Lagomorf, on 18 June 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

Considering the extremely high-resolution textures and post-processing effects designers now use in games, it would be a massive technological feat to make extremely intricate levels without heavy use of caching and disallowing backtracking.

There's only one other explanation I can think of as to why, and that's that most first-person shooters are now developed primarily for the console and games have been dumbed down to their standard, then ported to the PC (if they are ported at all).

Except those levels almost already exist. If you take the Foundry, or the next Argent Facility, you wouldn't need to change a lot of the actual layout to turn them into classic Doom maps. These levels show that they could have made "classic Doom with modern graphics" had they wanted to.

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I was deliberately being obtuse. Of course Doom Prime on the whole has widely non-linear levels, but I think you're overreaching a tad by claiming that EVERY level in Doom is basically non-stop arenas. The UAC isn't. Resource Ops doesn't feel that way. The Foundry definitely isn't. Argent Facility is very wide-open. I think to characterize them as arenas is somewhat short-sighted. Perhaps there's another term that can be used to describe them.

These levels are the minority, and like I've already said, even inside those you're still getting a succession of smaller, shorter, arenas, one after the other.

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Again, I think the term "arena" just doesn't fit to describe that level. Certainly not on the level of Serious Sam arena-based combat

I'm having a hard time finding a good topdown map of the level, this is the best I could find, but you can clearly see the map behind divided into 3 big arenas, with just a short path between each. I don't know how you can not see that.


IIRC there is barely even any enemy in between each arena.

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there's no reason to deny that this game does have levels of comparison to the original Doom - if not strictly in gameplay then at least in feel.

Gameplay, I've talked about already, as for "feel"... It would be hard to describe in English the "feel" I get from each game but they're totally different in both.
Like miles away.

Like, would you take the assets of Shadow Warrior 2013 (textures, enemies, weapons, etc), and use them to replace all the assets in the new Doom, you would be getting a proper sequel to Shadow Warrior 2013 that wouldn't feel out of place of disconnected at all.
The only links this new Doom has with the old one are purely cosmetic.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Sorry, I just disagree. On pretty much all counts.

[MusicallyInspired]

I'm trying to figure out what the performance bottleneck is when playing DOOM. Sometimes when I launch the game it runs like a dream (more or less) with mostly low quality settings at 1080p and about 75% on that resolution slider thing. But then other times it'll slow to a screeching halt (almost, the game literally slows down AND Drops frames) at 640x480 with the resolutions slider at 50% (lowest) and everything else disabled or on the lowest settings. I just played it again today and relaunched the game 3 times with the latter issue. Then I quit and started it up again a little later on and it plays like a dream again. What is the issue here? Any ideas? I have no idea where to beging looking. I put on the performance metrics OSD and when it slows down the CPU and GPU graphs are solid red bars. When it's fine they're both green and have healthy waveforms.

[MusicallyInspired]

Some screenshots showing the disparity in performance (sometimes in the same areas before and/or after a relaunch) for no apparent reason:





EDIT: Now that I look at it, the slow points seem to be when the CPUs have a lower percentage on the bottom there and when the framerate is fine they're higher. Don't know if that's a correlation.

[HulkNukem]

The last level is definitely just three big arenas and a boss fight.
The rest of the maps have a variety, from open ended and backtracking like the Foundry, to straightforward levels with no backtracking like the second to last level, to the linear but very vertical Tower level etc etc.
I thought it struck a good balance between having wide open levels and linear levels; playing either one continuously would become numbing.

[LkMax]

MusicallyInspired, on 18 June 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

I'm trying to figure out what the performance bottleneck is when playing DOOM. Sometimes when I launch the game it runs like a dream (more or less) with mostly low quality settings at 1080p and about 75% on that resolution slider thing. But then other times it'll slow to a screeching halt (almost, the game literally slows down AND Drops frames) at 640x480 with the resolutions slider at 50% (lowest) and everything else disabled or on the lowest settings. I just played it again today and relaunched the game 3 times with the latter issue. Then I quit and started it up again a little later on and it plays like a dream again. What is the issue here? Any ideas? I have no idea where to beging looking. I put on the performance metrics OSD and when it slows down the CPU and GPU graphs are solid red bars. When it's fine they're both green and have healthy waveforms.

I had random slowdowns that also randomly goes away after restarting the game (I played the demo). It's definitely a bug that I hope they fix until I get the game.

[MetHy]

Yes I have these slowdowns as well, where the game drops to 1-10 FPS, although they only seem to appear in the same levels for me and not the ones you pictured, the only thing to do is to restart the game.

I've also had crashing issues, between the two it can get quite annoying.

I barely recognized the area on your 3rd screenshot with all that fog!

[MusicallyInspired]

Sometimes a restart works, sometimes it doesn't. It's very bizarre. Ah well, I figure if I buy it I'll be able to get through it...eventually. When I finally decide on a new GPU it'll be smooth sailing.

[Striker]

What's your GPU and how much VRAM? The usual bottleneck for Doom 4 is VRAM. (4gb is basically a must in most cases.)

[Tea Monster]

Who has 4gb of vram? Very few cards have more than 2. I actually have 4GB, but I got it for rendering.

[Daedolon]

I'd say it's your SRAM/Cache or Northbridge or something like that. I have the shittiest CPU/mobo and was experiencing similar troubles in the demo.

[MusicallyInspired]

Info is all in my screenshots. I have a 1GB card. I know it's well below the min specs. But the fact that it's silky smooth at one point and moving in bullet time the next doesn't make sense to me.

[MetHy]

Inspector Lagomorf, on 15 June 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

although I've found there are some weapon upgrades you absolutely cannot live without (Explosive Shot for Shotgun, Missile Lock for Rocket Launcher).

Thinking back of this, on my first play on UV I too thought that Rocket lock-on would be amazing, and while it didn't feel that kick ass I sticked with it the entire game.
On my current 2nd playthrough, on Nightmare, I've been using the upgrades I dismissed on my first play, and I have to say that the remote detonation is a LOT better.

The lock-on rockets are smaller, weaker rockets. While in the end, using remote detonation rockets become a lot more powerful than the regular one AND the explosion radius is HUGE. I'm getting rid of bosses in no time with this thing, and that's while playing on the harder difficulty.

Honestly out of the regular weapons, I feel like the remote rocket and the charge attack of the gaus cannon (in siege mode) are the most OP weapons in the game. When I alernate between both I end fights in no time.

Anyway I only have 2 levels left and so far I'm only missing 3 secrets! (including one where I know where it's located, I just haven't found the level yet...) Hopefully I can find them all without looking them up...

[Bloodshot]

Playing around with jumps to states to give AI squadmates chatter depending on what is happening to them

MetHy, on 18 June 2016 - 06:49 AM, said:

Gameplay, I've talked about already, as for "feel"... It would be hard to describe in English the "feel" I get from each game but they're totally different in both.
Like miles away.

Like, would you take the assets of Shadow Warrior 2013 (textures, enemies, weapons, etc), and use them to replace all the assets in the new Doom, you would be getting a proper sequel to Shadow Warrior 2013 that wouldn't feel out of place of disconnected at all.
The only links this new Doom has with the old one are purely cosmetic.

I can't say i agree at all, the visual aesthetic is extremely important to the feel. Quake 1 and 2 are extremely similar to the old Dooms, yet they are still Quake 1 and 2. Level design alone does not dictate what the game is. If you replaced Quake 1's monsters with doom monsters and music with doom music it would suddenly feel like a doom expansion. The emphasis on the strogg enemies and the purely base levels of Quake 2 make it very different than Quake 1, just like the emphasis on the verticality of the arenas doesn't mean the new Doom is more Quake than Doom.

[MetHy]

I'm not saying the aesthetics are not connected to the "feel", but that, considering new Doom is on many many aspects almost exactly like Shadow Warrior 2013 or all those recent FPS, I don't see how you can get a similar feel with it than with original Doom.

[MusicallyInspired]

Shadow Warrior 2013 feels far more isolated and claustrophobic than DOOM does, though. I don't get the same vibe when I play it, other than there are some arena every now and then and the weapon upgrade system. It's close, I suppose, but it feels different in a way I can't explain. Not just because it's called Doom. Shadow Warrior was just called Shadow Warrior too and it feels far more different from the original than DOOM does here. I can't put it in the same category as SW2013, Painkiller, or Serious Sam.

[HulkNukem]

Looking awesome Bloodshot

[MetHy]

I am one step away from having a 100% clear file on Nightmare difficulty. I've done everything except I'm only missing the penultimate secret of the Argent Tower. I played that level 3 times total, looked EVERYWHERE twice and still couldn't find it. Anybody remember it (without having looked at a FAQ? It doesn't feel like cheating if someone else I know who has found it legit tells me )

Looking for secrets and levers got me into some crazy places. From certain angles parts of the levels can disappear, or you can see holes in the backgrounds. The last level particularly is a swiss cheese with its invisible walls, you can backtrack to previous areas or access certain spots which would give a certain advantage in combat for the arenas.

http://i101.photobuc...zpsy1ykzf4q.jpg

http://i101.photobuc...zpswo4hukzk.jpg

http://i101.photobuc...zpstvibh3mf.jpg

http://i101.photobuc...zps1apnfl1e.jpg

http://i101.photobuc...zps1cqdharw.jpg


I'm honestly very tempted by Ultra-Nightmare. It seems feasible, and if you find yourself in a tough situation where you're likely to die, you can always start the level over rather than lose the entire campaign progress... I think that the beginning of the game is probably the hardest, on Nightmare, after getting certain upgrades it got very easy while I died about 20 times in Foundry (got myself into a bad situation where I had a checkpoint at low health, near another tough encounter).

[Lunick]

Seinfeld.wad

[Jblade]

MetHy, on 20 June 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

I'm honestly very tempted by Ultra-Nightmare. It seems feasible, and if you find yourself in a tough situation where you're likely to die, you can always start the level over rather than lose the entire campaign progress... I think that the beginning of the game is probably the hardest, on Nightmare, after getting certain upgrades it got very easy while I died about 20 times in Foundry (got myself into a bad situation where I had a checkpoint at low health, near another tough encounter).

I don't think that's in the spirit of Ultra-nightmare I played UN and beat Foundry but didn't realize you couldn't quit in the middle of a level so I lost my save which was a bummer. it was incredibly intense but also fun at the same time, I'd recommend giving it a try.

[MetHy]

Damn, so you can't quit and start the level over if you find yourself in a tough situation Can you at least go back to previous levels to grind for Runes and weapons mods (at the risk of dying and losing your progress ?) Having a full "saving throw", and the ability to get BFG ammo drops, would probably help a lot, but it's dangerous to grind the first one.

I beat the first level on UN with ease, and I loved the concept of seeing death markers of other people! I laughed when I saw the first ones at the very first encounter...

Also someone need to make a standalone version of Demon Destruction, this thing was too much fun.

Edit :
I was really thinking of doing UN, but now I'm afraid that I'm going to lose my save at one point. Since you lose the save when you quit, I'm afraid it would get lost if I get a crash, a freeze, or that low FPS issue... and these happened a lot to me. Maybe when it gets more stable or when I get another video card...

Edit 2: Just tried the multiplayer and honestly it was pretty fun. Maybe there are too many random variables and shit for its own sake like experience and levels, but then again if it didn't have that it'd just be Q3A. What's the criticism about it? My main grip is how you're stuck with 2 weapons that you can't change.

[Richard Shead]

Lunick, on 20 June 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

Seinfeld.wad

"The wad about nothing".

Starring:
Hellaine Knight
CostanzaDemon
Hanging Cosmondo Kramer
Jerevenant Seinfeld

Guest Starring:
NewMancubus
Wolfenstein SS Soup Nazi

[MetHy]

I gave Snapmap a try and it's awful. There is no reason for it to be THAT limited, someone interested enough into making a good map will take the time to learn a 'real' editor and will not be doing it on console... As a result, this is just a stream of shit. I've played about 7-8 maps and I had already seen the same rooms several times, all the time...

When things get so limited it all comes down to gameplay, except that out of the maps I tried only 1 had any idea on how to make gameplay somewhat decent, and I played "featured" ones, the others were full of obvious mistakes like Imps with a THOUSAND HP, etc

It baffles me that you can't even stack rooms on top of each others.

Also I'm trying Ultra-Nightmare anyway, I've tuned down the graphics to the max and disable everything that can be in the hope that will help prevent crashes/freezes/glitchy FPS drops... I've reached the Argent Tower now, fingers crossed!

[Striker]

MusicallyInspired, on 19 June 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

Info is all in my screenshots. I have a 1GB card. I know it's well below the min specs. But the fact that it's silky smooth at one point and moving in bullet time the next doesn't make sense to me.

It makes perfect sense when some areas and levels have more texture variation, thus leading to more VRAM consumption and GPU->System Ram->GPU swapping, which is insanely slow. Keep in mind, ID Tech 5 and 6 stream very, VERY large textures in and out of memory constantly, in chunks.

Tea Monster, on 19 June 2016 - 02:11 AM, said:

Who has 4gb of vram? Very few cards have more than 2. I actually have 4GB, but I got it for rendering.

That may have been true in 2013 to mid 2014, but most cards are 4gb now. 6gb and 8gb are the new overkill.

Ever since I upgraded, the difference was like night and day in many titles. Doom 4, Killing Floor 2, Unreal Tournament 4, even Crysis, which was from 2007, got a performance boost, since everything can be loaded into the VRAM once and thus run butter smooth the whole time playing.

[MusicallyInspired]

For the same areas?

[Striker]

MusicallyInspired, on 21 June 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

For the same areas?

Does the framerate change depending which direction you're facing, in the same area, or happen most when turning? If so, it's very likely. When low on VRAM, ID Tech 6 pretty much swaps out parts of a megatexture the split second they go off-screen. Remember when I had to make the textures look like total fucking N64-level ass to be even remotely playable for the alpha on my 512mb card? That's why. I had to destroy the texture quality to keep shit in memory longer for when it's needed. With a 1gb card, you're at half the bare minimum for decent performance.

[PsychoGoatee]

Pretty badass!

[Inspector Lagomorf]

MusicallyInspired, on 21 June 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

For the same areas?

Hate to say it, but I too had to upgrade to a 4GB card to get the game to run smoothly. Call it an optimization flaw or not, it's just what it takes to get the game running well in some of the graphics-heavy areas.

[MusicallyInspired]

StrikerMan780, on 21 June 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Does the framerate change depending which direction you're facing, in the same area, or happen most when turning? If so, it's very likely. When low on VRAM, ID Tech 6 pretty much swaps out parts of a megatexture the split second they go off-screen. Remember when I had to make the textures look like total fucking N64-level ass to be even remotely playable for the alpha on my 512mb card? That's why. I had to destroy the texture quality to keep shit in memory longer for when it's needed. With a 1gb card, you're at half the bare minimum for decent performance.

No, not different directions. The same direction. I could be standing still or running all around and turning quickly. That entire outside area at the end of the demo before you go inside can be either a slow motion frame-eating mess or completely framedrop free and silky smooth (up to almost 60fps) experience. Sometimes when I quit and come back it changes, sometimes not. Without having moved.

I know my card is well below the requirement level, I acknowledged as much from the start. It's just strange why it's so unoptimized that way to be taking seemingly random stress attacks.

[Bloodshot]