[ReaperAA]

Zaxx, on 10 December 2019 - 10:41 PM, said:

So Eviternity is something like a Marvel movie while SIGIL could be I dunno, Midsommar or some other quality artsy-fartsy movie in the movie world and the Cacowards should appreciate both types of entertainment.

Well I can agree with this. Even though Sigil is not my cup of tea, I still believe it should've received a cacoward (even if its an 11th cacoward like how "Tech gone bad" got in 2016).

[NNC]

Yeah, that sense of place thing. The good wads have a strong sense of place. You know you are somewhere, either it's a real location or just a fictional place. There is a huge difference between ie. E5M3 and E5M6, while it's hard to tell the real difference between (any random numbers can be insterted here) Map14 and Map18 in Eviternity/AA/Sunlust etc.. Sigil's locations are quickly memorized by every players even by those who don't like the levels.

The Castle and Squibbons are also great masters at building strong, relatable places. No Rest for the Living is a masterpiece, and so is Redemption of the Slain.

Allen Blum is another man who create great locations you quickly memorize.

[Ninety-Six]

The Watchtower, on 11 December 2019 - 06:50 AM, said:

Redemption of the Slain.

I've never actually heard of this one before.

[ReaperAA]

The Watchtower, on 11 December 2019 - 06:50 AM, said:

Yeah, that sense of place thing. The good wads have a strong sense of place. You know you are somewhere, either it's a real location or just a fictional place. There is a huge difference between ie. E5M3 and E5M6, while it's hard to tell the real difference between (any random numbers can be insterted here) Map14 and Map18 in Eviternity/AA/Sunlust etc.. Sigil's locations are quickly memorized by every players even by those who don't like the levels.

Actually Eviternity does have a strong sense of place in most of its levels too. Only maps 7-8 and maps 17-18 pairs are a bit similar looking, the rest are easily recognizable for anyone how completely played through the wad atleast once.

Though I agree that AA and Sunder don't really have a strong sense of place and that is because they focus only and only on the combat setpieces.

[Phredreeke]

Eviternity's episodes are themed. You can hardly fault the WAD for that unless you also think Lunar Apcalypse is "too spacey" and Shrapnel City "too city-like".

I rarely remember individual levels in mods, but one that really stands out for me is Leave Your Sol Behind from Ancient Aliens

Did we play the same mod?

[ReaperAA]

Phredreeke, on 11 December 2019 - 07:37 AM, said:

I rarely remember individual levels in mods, but one that really stands out for me is Leave Your Sol Behind from Ancient Aliens https://youtube.com/...h?v=VYu401tDHfc

Did we play the same mod?

To be honest, I don't really remember exactly how the middle maps of Ancient Aliens looked like apart from a few ones. This map "Leave Your Sol Behind" is actually probably the most memorable map in the wad tho.

[Zaxx]

Phredreeke, on 11 December 2019 - 07:37 AM, said:

Eviternity's episodes are themed.

That's great but did you feel that an episode represents a larger world you've only seen a snippet of by completing the episode? Was there "world building" in that sense? Not much, man.

This is just a little example that absolutely doesn't mean much when it comes to the big picture really but do you remember that first chaingun secret on the first map of SIGIL with the fence and what you can see beyond that but actually can't go there? Now that's fucking world building.

[ReaperAA]

Zaxx, on 11 December 2019 - 07:41 AM, said:

That's great but did you feel that an episode represents a larger world you've only seen a snippet of by completing the episode? Was there "world building" in that sense? Not much, man.

This is just a little example that absolutely doesn't mean much when it comes to the big picture really but do you remember that first chaingun secret on the first map of SIGIL with the fence and what you can see beyond that but actually can't go there? Now that's fucking world building.

There is plenty of world building in Eviternity. Even places which are visible but can't go there (this aspect is especially prevalent in the last 2 episodes of Eviternity).

Also there are many memorable encounters too like the one with astral cacodemons on map 11, the boss fights on last maps of each episode or the 4-cyberdemon encounter on map 24 etc.

[Ninety-Six]

ReaperAA, on 11 December 2019 - 07:41 AM, said:

To be honest, I don't really remember exactly how the middle maps of Ancient Aliens looked like apart from a few ones.

I remember each and every single map in the second episode (And the first episode, and like the first couple of episode 3) in great detail, for all the wrong reasons. Each of their names and appearances has been scalded into memory from hours upon hours of seething anger.

[NNC]

Ninety-Six, on 11 December 2019 - 07:07 AM, said:

I've never actually heard of this one before.

You should try this if you have time. It's quite tricky, as it's optimised for Bru'l Doom, and there is a massive ammo shortage early on in a rather annoying Caco combat, so if you don't care about BD (like me), I recommend playing it with Double Ammo on, at least until the second zone. It also needs GZDoom. I love this map, probably my favourite thing ever in Doom (except for that annoying Caco combat), Castle promised he makes an updated non-BD version, but I haven't heard about much lately. The way the music (Doom Metal version of tracks, which is also a required thing) harmonizes within the various level themes, it's clearly better than anything the community ever tried, at least IMHO.

[MusicallyInspired]

id/Bethesda announced that among the quality of life changes in the upcoming patch for Doom and Doom 2 on consoles is the inclusion of John Romero's Sigil episode. So that's really cool. The other improvements they mentioned were aspect ratio options and 60 fps. The proper music recordings are likely included as well, I saw an Instagram post of one of the devs fixing that.

They also explained the new "add-on" menu used to select Sigil and mentioned "downloading free map packs". I wonder if they'll let us use our own WADs....?

https://www.twitch.t...9684536?t=2788s

[Lunick]

The proper music recordings were included in the last patch, I doubt they would let users sideload their own wads however since they wouldn't want people deliberately crashing the consoles with unsupported WADs

[Ninety-Six]

The Watchtower, on 11 December 2019 - 11:11 AM, said:

You should try this if you have time. It's quite tricky, as it's optimised for Bru'l Doom, and there is a massive ammo shortage early on in a rather annoying Caco combat, so if you don't care about BD (like me)

I actually unironically enjoy BD. I know it's heresy to say that but I am rather fond of the faster-but-deadlier combat.

The Watchtower, on 11 December 2019 - 11:11 AM, said:

It also needs GZDoom.

This is unfortunately the dealbreaker, though.

MusicallyInspired, on 11 December 2019 - 04:26 PM, said:

They also explained the new "add-on" menu used to select Sigil and mentioned "downloading free map packs". I wonder if they'll let us use our own WADs....?

Lunick, on 11 December 2019 - 07:39 PM, said:

The proper music recordings were included in the last patch, I doubt they would let users sideload their own wads however since they wouldn't want people deliberately crashing the consoles with unsupported WADs

Unless id curated which wads were downloadable.

That being said I wonder what exactly "unsupported" means. visplane limit? Is that why they removed NRFTL?

[NNC]

Why is it dealbreaker?

[Zaxx]

Ninety-Six, on 11 December 2019 - 10:33 PM, said:

That being said I wonder what exactly "unsupported" means. visplane limit? Is that why they removed NRFTL?

No Rest For the Living is coming for Doom 2 and SIGIL needs BOOM too so it seems like the limits themselves don't pose a problem. With that said there are a lot of other things that can make wads incompatible with a port and we don't know how advanced Bethesda's port is (but I really doubt it has more than the bare minimum required to run BOOM compatible wads).

What's great though is that at least Bethesda is making significant improvements here contrary to what some other company did with their classic FPS port this year...

[Ninety-Six]

Zaxx, on 11 December 2019 - 11:50 PM, said:

No Rest For the Living is coming for Doom 2

I missed this. My bad.

The Watchtower, on 11 December 2019 - 11:38 PM, said:

Why is it dealbreaker?

GZDoom does not play nice with my machine, unfortunately.

[Marphy Black]

Zaxx, on 11 December 2019 - 11:50 PM, said:

SIGIL needs BOOM

Sigil does not need Boom-compatibility. It's a vanilla format episode that requires extended (or removed) limits.

[Zaxx]

I never touched BOOM so to me that equals limit removing, sorry.

[cybdmn]

Zaxx, on 12 December 2019 - 02:05 AM, said:

I never touched BOOM so to me that equals limit removing, sorry.

ZDoom and everything based on that is limit removing too, as well as other ports. Needs Boom means uses boom exclusive features.

[Phredreeke]

AFAIK pretty much anything more advanced than Chocolate Doom is limit removing.
A large portion of Doom ports are also Boom-compatible, notable exceptions would be Crispy Doom and Doomsday.

[OpenMaw]

Phredreeke, on 12 December 2019 - 10:50 AM, said:

AFAIK pretty much anything more advanced than Chocolate Doom is limit removing.
A large portion of Doom ports are also Boom-compatible, notable exceptions would be Crispy Doom and Doomsday.

What I want to know is there a way to configure a Doom level editor, like Doom Builder, to force you into the limits? Because I blew the limits on my last map without even trying.

[cybdmn]

Commando Nukem, on 12 December 2019 - 11:23 AM, said:

What I want to know is there a way to configure a Doom level editor, like Doom Builder, to force you into the limits? Because I blew the limits on my last map without even trying.

Not as far as i know. There is chocorenderlimits, a fork of chocolade doom. It's designed to test your maps for vanilla compatibility. It shows all the stuff like visplane count while the map is running.
But, the status of chocorenderlimits is a bit unclear at the moment, because there is no maintainer at the moment, as the last resigned.

[MusicallyInspired]

Romero said on Twitter when asked that id's console ports remove limitations which is why Sigil works.

Zaxx, on 11 December 2019 - 11:50 PM, said:

What's great though is that at least Bethesda is making significant improvements here contrary to what some other company did with their classic FPS port this year...

Which game was that?...

[Putrid Pete]

MusicallyInspired, on 12 December 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

Which game was that?...

I'm just guessing here, but I suspect he refers to a certain port that went open for business earlier this year, before a certain company decided to pull the plug on it and leave it half-baked. If you need another hint I'll just say that Red is definitely your color...

[HulkNukem]

Gotta give Bethesda credit where its due, they are actually updating the ports with fixes AND adding expansions for free AND doing a community wad section and (seemingly) all for free.

That is way more than Gearbox has done for Duke 3D's World Tour.

Blood Fresh Supply also got more support than World Tour did, even if they were cut off.

[Phredreeke]

HulkNukem, on 12 December 2019 - 02:19 PM, said:

Blood Fresh Supply also got more support than World Tour did, even if they were cut off.

World Tour added extra value in the form of the extra episode. Also was anything in WT ever as broken as FS? The old one-liners were muffled but IIRC they "fixed" that by providing pre-upsampled recordings.

[HulkNukem]

Phredreeke, on 12 December 2019 - 04:33 PM, said:

World Tour added extra value in the form of the extra episode. Also was anything in WT ever as broken as FS? The old one-liners were muffled but IIRC they "fixed" that by providing pre-upsampled recordings.

I was talking support, not how they were at launch.
Even then, World Tour didn't have the expansions that Megaton already had.

[MusicallyInspired]

Putrid Pete, on 12 December 2019 - 02:10 PM, said:

I'm just guessing here, but I suspect he refers to a certain port that went open for business earlier this year, before a certain company decided to pull the plug on it and leave it half-baked. If you need another hint I'll just say that Red is definitely your color...

Oh yes of course...duh.

Phredreeke, on 12 December 2019 - 04:33 PM, said:

World Tour added extra value in the form of the extra episode. Also was anything in WT ever as broken as FS? The old one-liners were muffled but IIRC they "fixed" that by providing pre-upsampled recordings.

They rerecorded all the lines. They didn't use any high quality recordings of the original lines if that's what you're thinking.

[Zaxx]

HulkNukem, on 12 December 2019 - 02:19 PM, said:

Blood Fresh Supply also got more support than World Tour did, even if they were cut off.

I guess that's kinda true, I mean I didn't enjoy playing World Tour because of the port's issues with mouse aiming and I kinda don't like talking about Alien World Order because I think that I just can't fully appreciate it until it becomes available to play in EDuke32 with all of its features. With that said World Tour still has new content and the Steam Workshop.

And really to me personally BFS hurts more because I have great respect for Kaiser as a developer and I think the port is doing a lot of good things so you see the potential there but it's just so half-baked it's baffling sometimes and it's full of bad decisions.

[MusicallyInspired]

I still like World Tour. The episode that is. And Lee Jackson's new music and new recordings of old music is great. And I was in the process once to create normal maps for the 8-bit textures, but then World Tour just does it for me. And also Jon St. John rerecorded all the Duke3D lines like I've always wanted. They're not the best, but it is nice to hear Duke in hi-def.

So yeah I guess I like it overall. Bad implementation for mods and maps on Steam Workshop though and support in general. And the new enemy and especially boss has problems. But the rest of it is pretty good.