[Fox]

Anyway, I probably won't include the PSX weapon sprites because they are cut in the bottom and won't work without the full status bar.

===//===//===

Edit: Since we are talking about the fidelity of this mod, I am considering (not sure yet) "remastering" the palette variants of the tiles.

In order to make the tiles work with a lookup palette, they converted it to Duke 3D palette and applied the lookup tables. Example:

Spoiler

But I don't like it. I would love to have the Trooper with the pinkish skin tone. So I had the idea of reversing the lookup palette, and applying the difference in the RGB values to the lookup tile. The result:

Spoiler

What do you think?

[Mr. Nukem Roses]

looks good

[Hendricks266]

The HRP's highpalookups may be exactly what this needs. Polymer-only, though I suspect it could be factored into a program that outputs image files.

[Fox]

Nah, too much work. The mod only uses five (sets of) sprites with palette variants.

[Mav3r1ck]

So are we going to see a release soon?

[Fox]

Dunno. It's no longer a matter of progress.

[zykov eddy]

Personally, I'd love to see a mod that's as close to the original as it gets, with all it's flaws. Maybe I'm a bit weird that way. After all, I also enjoy SNES Doom and Atari Jaguar Doom wads for ZDoom

[Mav3r1ck]

zykov eddy, on 15 November 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

Personally, I'd love to see a mod that's as close to the original as it gets, with all it's flaws. Maybe I'm a bit weird that way. After all, I also enjoy SNES Doom and Atari Jaguar Doom wads for ZDoom

Don't worry, I know exactly where you're coming from.

[Jimmy]

People forget that this isn't a mod. It's a port.

[Nukey]

THANK YOU

[Mav3r1ck]

Jimmy, on 15 November 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

People forget that this isn't a mod. It's a port.

Lol yeah, I also know it's a port but I keep saying mod.

[Lunick]

It doesn't help that it actually says mod in the title of the topic...

[gibfrag]

Everyone's saying that Fox shouldn't use all the downgraded graphics and just use the PC versions, but that would make the new enemies and art found only in the PSX version look weird and out of place.

What about editing the PC weapons to have the colors and pixel alterations of the PSX version?

[Fox]

I have considered that. It would be an equivalent of the widescreen weapons for Megaton.

[Fox]

Jimmy, on 15 November 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

People forget that this isn't a mod. It's a port.

It's a mod because it requires a copy of Duke 3D to run.

Just to make it clear, the purpose of this is not to make a game that plays strictly like the PSX port, but to provide a better experience to play the original. It's like movie remasterisation, where you can see details you couldn't before. What we are NOT doing is making Greedo shoot first. That's a no-no.

[Hendricks266]

gerolf, on 16 November 2014 - 03:24 AM, said:

Everyone's saying that Fox shouldn't use all the downgraded graphics and just use the PC versions, but that would make the new enemies and art found only in the PSX version look weird and out of place.

I'd like to see an 8-bit professional such as Jimmy or Cage take a swing at converting all the content-exclusive tiles to Duke's palette. Then all the TM tiles, downgrades and all, could be defined as hightile and enabled or disabled by the player at will.

Fox, on 16 November 2014 - 05:28 AM, said:

I have considered that. It would be an equivalent of the widescreen weapons for Megaton.

If you decide to put the effort into this, be sure to use the widescreen weapons as a base. http://hendricks266....een_weapons.zip

[Player Lin]

Hendricks266, on 16 November 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

...Then all the TM tiles, downgrades and all, could be defined as hightile and enabled or disabled by the player at will.

That's my bottom-line...at least give the player the option to use the downgraded artworks or not, everyone should be(*) happy.



(*): Even I mean should be, it still possible someone doesn't like that.

[Fox]

The matter is that these aren't merely downgraded sprites, they have been reworked too. There are 2.650 tiles in the PSX port, but the mod is only using 1.170 because most of them are not different from the PC except for the color depth and mirroring. And take in account that 705 of these sprites are for the player and enemies.

[Hendricks266]

Fox, on 16 November 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

The matter is that these aren't merely downgraded sprites, they have been reworked too. There are 2.650 tiles in the PSX port, but the mod is only using 1.170 because most of them are not different from the PC except for the color depth and mirroring.

All 2650 are used as hightile --> everything is consistent with hightile enabled.

The 1170 with exclusive content (edited enemies, new enemies, ep. 4 art, etc) get palettized to 8-bit --> everything is consistent with hightile disabled.

[Nukey]

I can't believe I even have to say this, but porting the art is not a ridiculous goal by any stretch of the imagination. It's exactly the same goal as porting everything else. If the art isn't going to be ported, why bother with the sound? If the sound isn't going to be ported, why bother with the maps? Why bother with any of it?

The reflexive reaction to that is to roll your eyes and think "because <asset i like> is clearly more important than <asset i don't like>". Picking and choosing which assets are worthy and which are not is purely subjective and has no place in technical work. That discussion belongs in the (inevitable) enhancement stage.

Those who are upset because they want the higher-quality PC art are crying for the cake that is on their fingers. They win by default, because the PC art already exists. The (very) few of us who want the, y'know, actual art from the game, as if that is somehow ridiculous, seem to have to fight for it against a massive wave of opinion.

[Hendricks266]

Nukey, on 16 November 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

The (very) few of us who want the, y'know, actual art from the game, as if that is somehow ridiculous, seem to have to fight for it against a massive wave of opinion.

It boils down to whether or not the TM art that is nothing more than a downgrade from the original art has any worth. I argue that it does. It's part of the experience. This mod will not be complete until as much of the TM experience can be brought to EDuke32 as possible.

Restoration of the PC art should be handled in the same way as the uncensor patch is handled for the Duke 64 mod.

[Jblade]

Downgraded uglier versions of existing PC assets aren't art, and it's pretentious to try and say that it is. I'm trying to explain to you guys why you're not being met with unanimous appraisal about all of this extra work you're doing that to many people seems incredibly pointless, and I've played and own the game so I'm not being impatient here (because I can always boot it up in an emulator)

Let me make it explicit, ORIGINAL artwork, like the monsters, is cool and yes port that! The original PC artwork, taken and reduced in resolution and or colour count to fit into the PSX's hardware? Porting that doesn't do anything and makes the maps look worse. I could talk to you all day about the spirit and feelings of classic games, but I don't believe for a second that in this case the low res texture ports contributes a unique 'atmosphere' anymore than the low framerate and screen resolution do.

People were excited because they were gonna get the chance to check out the exclusive PSX episode that weren't just recreations, but instead the goalposts have been moved and the lite version has been apparently scrubbed. I still don't know why you didn't just release the stuff as is, unless you got a license alongside TerminX or something.

If you've decided to stop making a mod and want to recreate the port as 100% authentically as possible, than you should make a new topic that explains this goal better. I wouldn't care about any of this if the goals didn't suddenly move and what was supposed to be a lite mod turned into a slavish recreation that will take probably years to be finished (Because it DOES still say mod in the topic title)

final edit, I'm not looking for a fight so don't feel like I'm attacking any of the people working on it - it's your choice to do all of the stuff, but if you make it public than some people will question some of the decisions being undertaken.

[NNC]

Jblade, on 16 November 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

Downgraded uglier versions of existing PC assets aren't art, and it's pretentious to try and say that it is. I'm trying to explain to you guys why you're not being met with unanimous appraisal about all of this extra work you're doing that to many people seems incredibly pointless, and I've played and own the game so I'm not being impatient here (because I can always boot it up in an emulator)

Let me make it explicit, ORIGINAL artwork, like the monsters, is cool and yes port that! The original PC artwork, taken and reduced in resolution and or colour count to fit into the PSX's hardware? Porting that doesn't do anything and makes the maps look worse. I could talk to you all day about the spirit and feelings of classic games, but I don't believe for a second that in this case the low res texture ports contributes a unique 'atmosphere' anymore than the low framerate and screen resolution do.

People were excited because they were gonna get the chance to check out the exclusive PSX episode that weren't just recreations, but instead the goalposts have been moved and the lite version has been apparently scrubbed. I still don't know why you didn't just release the stuff as is, unless you got a license alongside TerminX or something.

If you've decided to stop making a mod and want to recreate the port as 100% authentically as possible, than you should make a new topic that explains this goal better. I wouldn't care about any of this if the goals didn't suddenly move and what was supposed to be a lite mod turned into a slavish recreation that will take probably years to be finished (Because it DOES still say mod in the topic title)

final edit, I'm not looking for a fight so don't feel like I'm attacking any of the people working on it - it's your choice to do all of the stuff, but if you make it public than some people will question some of the decisions being undertaken.

Great post. I agree with every written letter of it.

[zykov eddy]

Okay, how about making two versions, with downgrades and without them?

[Fox]

Jblade, on 16 November 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

unless you got a license alongside TerminX or something.

Kinda. Ask him.

Jblade, on 16 November 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

If you've decided to stop making a mod and want to recreate the port as 100% authentically as possible, than you should make a new topic that explains this goal better. I wouldn't care about any of this if the goals didn't suddenly move and what was supposed to be a lite mod turned into a slavish recreation that will take probably years to be finished (Because it DOES still say mod in the topic title)

It was meant to be a lite version because of necessity. The graphics were not fully/consistently ripped. The sounds were not avaiable yet. And so on. It changed the moment Nukey managed to pull that stuff off from the PMP files.

[Jblade]

I think there's some confusion then because I thought the idea was that you'd release Plug and Pray as a seperate episode (the 'lite' version) and then do what you're doing now as a full modification (as the 'full' version) I think other people believed that as well. So you don't plan on releasing just Plug and Pray by itself anymore?

[Nukey]

Jblade, on 16 November 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I'm using the term "art" as in ".art", not as in shark-in-a-tank pretentious cultural art.

I'll forego the rest and say that it seems the real issue driving these complaints is less about porting the art and more about the assets still being under wraps. I am and always have been strongly in favour of releasing the assets that are known to be accurate. I don't have special club syndrome. I want to see them released as much as anybody else here. The problem is that valuable data has suddenly come into existence, so there will be weird restrictions that ensue, and strange paths that it has to take in order to finally get to the public. These complications arise when there is more than one human involved in anything.

I actually don't care about this stuff nearly as much as it might seem. It's only the principles that matter to me. If the maps had simply been released in the first place, that would have curtailed most of these issues, and would not have impeded a licensed port either. The Duke64 mod has existed in the public space for years, and I highly doubt that will have any impact on its reception as an Android release, so I have absolutely no idea why the PSX version requires special treatment.

[Jblade]

Alright, I get the feeling that the situation is probably complicated legally so I apologize for appearing to put pressure on you guys - I felt a bit frustrated that the goals of the mod seemed to differ from what the public perception of it was (just a port of Plug and Prey with the new monsters) but do what you have to do if that's out of the question now.

[Hendricks266]

Nukey, on 16 November 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

I actually don't care about this stuff nearly as much as it might seem. It's only the principles that matter to me. If the maps had simply been released in the first place, that would have curtailed most of these issues, and would not have impeded a licensed port either. The Duke64 mod has existed in the public space for years, and I highly doubt that will have any impact on its reception as an Android release, so I have absolutely no idea why the PSX version requires special treatment.

While I do remember you releasing the maps publicly once you extracted them from the ROM, and I recall the sounds being publicly extractable and the graphics somewhat extractable using emulators, I do not recall the entire mod being released publicly before it was finished (barring the early version before Fox restarted).

I tend to advocate keeping in-progress versions of mods private until they reach a "gold" state for the same reasons given by the MOTHER 3 Translation team:

Quote

Why don't you release a partial patch of the full translation instead, then?

[...]

Also, releasing a partial version of our patch would mean that most people would play that version, but then when the finished version comes out, only a fraction of the original players would try out the polished patch.

On top of that, we'd like our full translation to be as good as it can be from the very first patch release. We're sticklers for quality.

[Fox]

And that's what I should have done. Luckily the version I released was cock-sucking enough that it didn't affected the final release.