[Kathy]

Pretty much. If it was in the contract then they better fork it over. They shouldn't get a free pass just because they were so gracious to save the project(acquiring the powerful IP), which they didn't bother to improve, but hyped the hell out of it and eventually tried to assign blame for its quality on a previous developer.

[Jimmy]

StrikerMan780, on 16 June 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

(Edit: There it goes again. Some people are just too eager to defend 3DR. A company that is no different than Gearbox in that they've both been great companies in the past, but have finally just shafted everyone with all kinds of false promises.)

Don't forget about 2K Games. They're responsible for so much bullshit in the DNF Development cycle. Like throwing cash at 3DR, but never pressuring them to deliver. Not giving 3DR the last bit of financing they needed. Rushing Gearbox to finish the game. It goes on and on. The biggest culprits in my opinion are 2K Games and Scott Miller. Neither of them did their jobs effectively. 2K just threw money at 3DR and expected results. Scott just let George do whatever the hell he wanted and expected results.

TerminX, on 16 June 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

I have to side with 3DR on this one... if Gearbox said they would pay, they need to pay. Plus, the response they sent to various sites blaming 3DR for Gearbox's choice to purchase DNF and how Gearbox chose to finish the game is thoroughly unprofessional. It doesn't matter what state the game was in when they received it; they had something like a year and a half to finish it as they saw fit and THAT is what is reflected by DNF's poor reception. Regardless of the reviews, DNF still sold well and not everybody hated it. Just because it didn't do AS WELL as they were hoping doesn't mean they get to skirt their contractual obligations and play the blame game. If they wanted the game to be better, they should have used all that time to make it better instead of hyping it up and outright lying about the content it contained (secret areas, etc).

And if you read the design documents that got leaked when 3DR dissolved you would know they rushed out a broken unfinished cobbled together pile of shit delivered only 3/4's of the game and then sold the rest of it to us as DLC.

[Flying Techbot]

Jimmy, on 16 June 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Don't forget about 2K Games. They're responsible for so much bullshit in the DNF Development cycle. Like throwing cash at 3DR, but never pressuring them to deliver. Not giving 3DR the last bit of financing they needed. Rushing Gearbox to finish the game. It goes on and on. The biggest culprits in my opinion are 2K Games and Scott Miller. Neither of them did their jobs effectively. 2K just threw money at 3DR and expected results. Scott just let George do whatever the hell he wanted and expected results.


And if you read the design documents that got leaked when 3DR dissolved you would know they rushed out a broken unfinished cobbled together pile of shit delivered only 3/4's of the game and then sold the rest of it to us as DLC.

Where are the leaked design documents, anyway? If the design document is any better, I wonder why Gearbox just didn't try to follow it... Oh, yeah, they were in a rush to finish it.

[Malgon]

^This should be what you are looking for.

[Kathy]

Jimmy, on 16 June 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Like throwing cash at 3DR, but never pressuring them to deliver.

When did they do that? In 2007?

Quote

Rushing Gearbox to finish the game.

What are you talking about? Gearbox had more than enough time with SP being virtually completed when they acquired the game.

[Jimmy]

If it was virtually completed why did even Gearbox delay the game? There is no way it was more than 65% finished when Gearbox Shovelware got it.

[Kristian Joensen]

The single player was content complete when Gearbox got it.

[Sangman]

Jimmy, on 16 June 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

The biggest culprits in my opinion are 2K Games and Scott Miller. Neither of them did their jobs effectively. 2K just threw money at 3DR and expected results.

Come on now there's been enough information released to know what you're saying is not true at all. Development was mostly self-funded, but eventually they did run out of money (after about 10 years of development) and 2K didn't want to lend them any money to help them out. Some might call it sad, but that is perfectly understandable. Who in their right mind would hand a large amount of cash to a company that has failed to deliver their product for years on end?

The responsibility for the success of a self-funded project falls only on the hands of the project manager. Being George in this case. I have nothing against the guy, but he is more to blame than Scott or 2K if you ask me.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, but it was Scott's job to keep George's shit in check. It was his company. Blaming George is like blaming a child with bad parents. I wouldn't trust that dude in charge of a project.

[Kathy]

The company is theirs, 50/50.

[Jimmy]

Okay yeah, but it's pretty well known that George had minimal involvement with the business side of things, that was Scott's job.

[Sangman]

Jimmy, on 17 June 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Yeah, but it was Scott's job to keep George's shit in check. It was his company.

No?

Quote

Okay yeah, but it's pretty well known that George had minimal involvement with the business side of things, that was Scott's job.

Yeah and considering what 3DR has produced or how they have otherwise been active in certain projects proves that Scott was doing the business thing somewhat well... though I guess the only truth is that they both kinda fucked up.

[Jimmy]

I'll definitely agree with that. Typical boomer move; Squander a once great company because you don't feel like evolving.

[Flying Techbot]

At least 3D Realms is able sell all their classic games competently on their home site, with DOSbox emulators and everything. id Software can't even do the same for their home site: id's games are sold with DOSbox on Steam, but when it comes to their own home web site, they sell older ports of their games with no DOSbox emulators at all. id doesn't even give buyers the option to buy their games in CD form either, a perk which 3D Realms is much better at.

It's the one thing 3D Realms is still good at, despite George's hyperbolic development process for DNF and Prey. Whatever George's faults, and whatever the flaws of DNF, 3D Realms should have the royalties. Gearbox is in no position to act superior towards 3D Realms, because they after all took the game and sold it willingly.

As for 3D Realms having more lawsuits than finished games, this is only the second lawsuit I'm aware of 3D Realms being involved with. Two lawsuits are barely many.

[MusicallyInspired]

Flying Techbot, on 17 June 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

At least 3D Realms is able sell all their classic games competently on their home site, with DOSbox emulators and everything. id Software can't even do the same for their home site: id's games are sold with DOSbox on Steam, but when it comes to their own home web site, they sell older ports of their games with no DOSbox emulators at all. id doesn't even give buyers the option to buy their games in CD form either, a perk which 3D Realms was much better at.

Fixed. 3DR doesn't sell CDs anymore. They stopped that after everyone was laid off. That was the same time they offered all their games with DOSBox-wrapped environments as an alternative. Though, at the time they weren't offering Shadow Warrior with the CD audio tracks because Joe Siegler said it wasn't possible in DOSBox. After I corrected him he attempted to fix that, but I guess it was too late. At least the Steam and GoG versions of Shadow Warrior now have the CD audio tracks at last.

[Micky C]

What are Yatta's thoughts on the law suit? Isn't he some kind of lawyer?

[Flying Techbot]

MusicallyInspired, on 17 June 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

Fixed. 3DR doesn't sell CDs anymore. They stopped that after everyone was laid off. That was the same time they offered all their games with DOSBox-wrapped environments as an alternative. Though, at the time they weren't offering Shadow Warrior with the CD audio tracks because Joe Siegler said it wasn't possible in DOSBox. After I corrected him he attempted to fix that, but I guess it was too late. At least the Steam and GoG versions of Shadow Warrior now have the CD audio tracks at last.

I bought their old games long after the lay offs. Next to the digital downloads, you get backup CDs of your order for an additional price. Granted, the games get packed together, but they still count as CDs. Recheck the online store. The CD option is available, and I got the CDs.

[NY00123]

MusicallyInspired, on 17 June 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

Fixed. 3DR doesn't sell CDs anymore. They stopped that after everyone was laid off. That was the same time they offered all their games with DOSBox-wrapped environments as an alternative. Though, at the time they weren't offering Shadow Warrior with the CD audio tracks because Joe Siegler said it wasn't possible in DOSBox. After I corrected him he attempted to fix that, but I guess it was too late. At least the Steam and GoG versions of Shadow Warrior now have the CD audio tracks at last.

While admittedly a bit hidden in the forums, the CD audio tracks were added after all:
http://forums.3dreal...70&postcount=95

An update is available for anybody who originally purchased a digital copy from their store not containing the CD audio tracks.

[MusicallyInspired]

Oh good! I'm happy to stand corrected.

[xPreatorianx]

NightFright, on 13 June 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

I just wonder why they simply can't let it be. OK, it's about bucks, but isn't Gearbox already taking a pretty hard beating for screwing up DNF and lately also the Aliens game? If it wasn't for Borderlands, things wouldn't look too good for them right now.

I'd say let sleeping dogs lie, but I guess lawyers (and 3DR) see things differently, so it can't be helped. Let them continue their little private war. We will keep doing stuff over here that REALLY matters.

Well let's face it...by the track record with Aliens and DNF, Gearbox SHOULD NEVER develop a game that is from another studio or cooperate with another studio UNLESS the deadline WILL NEVER exceed the usual 3-4 year deadline. As both those games are prime examples of Gearbox completely screwing up when it comes to a title that has been in development for more than the standard dev cycle AND has changed hands numerous times. Both games were developed at numerous studios. So of course the quality is going to be horrid.

Gearbox shine when they do a game completely by themselves. (borderlands and borderlands 2 anyone? DAMN GOOD GAMES!) With little to no involvement by outside companies. They fail horribly when it comes to multi-dev games and games that take longer than 3-4 years.

As far as the lawsuit goes - in all honesty if they broke a contract, than yes it's a legit case and it should be brought to the legal system. At the end of the day even if a company is all about the consumer experience and putting customers first, they still need to make money as well. So if one company isn't holding up their end of the deal and it ends up in another company not getting their paycheck - that's a legit beef and one I support.

[Jimmy]

[NightFright]

It's definitely not helping the game in its post-disastrous stage. The Duke Nukem brand already took more than enough damage from this ongoing struggle.

Let's just keep fingers crossed the lawyers won't extend this drama for another 14 years. I would actually like to read positive news about Duke again at some point in the hopefully not-too-distant future. Besides those coming from this community, of course.

[DavoX]

Words from Jon st. John on facebook:

Quote

Lots of video game news this week...but this is a sad time for Duke. I am now wondering if another Duke Nukem game will ever be released. Apogee (3D Realms) suing Gearbox is something I am not surprised by, but certainly not happy about. This Bulls***t lawsuit will no doubt delay anything Duke from happening for quite some time. A sad day for Duke and yours truly.

[----]

Interesting that he is not suprised by the lawsuit. One can interpret that in two ways, either that 3DR is known for that, or that with GBX behavior a lawsuit had to happen.

Objectively I cannot decide which interpretation might be true. Subjectively it is of course GBX' fault.

[Malgon]

^I found that interesting as well that he wasn't surprised about it happening. Does he mean he isn't happy about 3DR filing a lawsuit be because he doesn't agree with them, or is it more that he isn't happy about the situation in general as it means no more Duke for a while?

[Lunick]

DavoX, on 22 June 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Words from Jon st. John on facebook:

Although not entirely on topic, on the same post: Dave Oshry /grin | And then after that both Fred and Dave have liked a comment by Wesker

[xMobilemux]

Lunick, on 22 June 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Although not entirely on topic, on the same post: Dave Oshry /grin | And then after that both Fred and Dave have liked a comment by Wesker

Dave also posted a reply to me on that post then deleted it, but I saw it

[Fox Mulder]

^ https://dl.dropboxus...6/DukeLives.png

[Lunick]

xMobilemux, on 22 June 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Dave also posted a reply to me on that post then deleted it, but I saw it

I was going to take a screenshot but Dave might accuse me of stalking him again Fox got it though.

[DavoX]

Mixed feelings. Hopefully something nice coming along!