[Ronin]

kaisersoze, on 14 June 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

What do you guys think of 3DR ie: Scott and George potentially getting the Duke I.P. back from Gearbox? Do you think Gearbox can do the I.P. justice at this point?

That better not happen, not if you ever want to see another Duke game while your eyes still function.

I don't think Gearbox Shovelware will do Duke justice, the I.P needs to go to a studio that has integrity that won't chop the game up and sell it to you in little dlc pieces after. If by some miracle 3DR get Duke back and gives it to a studio like Interceptor to make then it could be good. I don't see this happening. And after the Aliens farce it will be along time before cagey Gearbox will dare risk a release like Duke Nukem.

[fuegerstef]

Ronan, on 14 June 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

That better not happen, not if you ever want to see another Duke game while your eyes still function.

AFAIK Scott and George were very supportive of Reloaded. And if Interceptor proves it's talent with ROTT I can imagine that you would see a Duke game sooner if it is produced (!!!) by 3DR than you'd see a Duke game developed by Tryptich under the wings of GBX.

I think 3DR know very well, that the next Duke game can't be a $60 AAA++ title. And personally I would be very fine with a $19.95 Duke game that is true to the original spirit of the IP (ie: not a Lo Wang that looks as if being the bad guy from the later and even worse Resident Evil movies and turning it into Hard Reset just with other models for the enemies and leaving out the city environments).

Just my personal thoughts.

[Mr. Tibbs]

My heart really goes out to the Triptych guys. They're the reason the game shipped in the first place. Gearbox loved talking up the sacrifices the team made to reach alpha, but then chose not reward them? I thought Randy said Blum was his hero? Poor dudes, they deserve better.

I really would've preferred the original plan they had in mind. 3D Realms and Triptych were going to have a live webcam and would package up your copy of DNF like in the old days. Expectations would've been significantly lower, and it would've been more of a novelty (this is coming from a guy who's quite fond of DNF). There would've been so many amazing ways to frame DNF considering it's absurd history - think of all the amazing extras you could include! I didn't know about the loan George and Scott had to pay back so I can't blame them for pursuing the Gearbox deal. Having that kind of debt hanging over you would be a nightmare.

Duke needs less drama and more games!

[Ronin]

fuegerstef, on 14 June 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

I think 3DR know very well, that the next Duke game can't be a $60 AAA++ title. And personally I would be very fine with a $19.95 Duke game that is true to the original spirit of the IP

This would be an excellent marketing strategy and is just what Duke needs for people to take a chance on him again.

Mr. Tibbs, on 14 June 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

I thought Randy said Blum was his hero?

Randy is a filthy liar, I fell for his bullshit too. Once bitten twice shy.

[fuegerstef]

Ronan, on 14 June 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

This would be an excellent marketing strategy and is just what Duke needs for people to take a chance on him again.


Randy is a filthy liar, I fell for his bullshit too. Once bitten twice shy.

And I think a low- or mid-budget can work very well. I will take Serious Sam 3 as an example. Not for gameplay but for how they managed cutscenes. Please note. I am using the cutscenes only as example, that principle could be transferred to interactivity and all that so that you still have the fun but with less costs for some cinematic stuff nobody needs anyways if you want to PLAY a game instead of WATCHING it (I am looking at you Deus Ex HR. Just when I got into the groove of the gameplay I was interrupted by a loooong boring cutscene. And that happend constantly until I gave up on that crap).

SS3 made it so, that they mainly had talking persons (Sam always walks and talks into his headset, that's all), exploding stuff and static meshes (heli's, cars, etc...) used in their cutscenes. There was no need for elaborate acting and additional motion and face epression capturing. Some Helis getting hit or flying in front of the sunrise (opening of the DLC) or exploding monuments were enough. And that could be transferred to Duke and his interactivity. Do we really need a full animation for drinking from a fountain? I think not. It is more important to make the interactivity funny than to make it looking perfectly fine with additional cinematic stuff.
Lemme throw a basketball into a window. And it gets thrown back out with some angry shouting from inside, or a reskinned enemy coming from the house you threw the ball into screaming "get of my lawn". IMHO much more effective than what we mostly get in other modern games r in DNF. Shoot that enemy and you can pick up his SHotgun ... one level earlier than you would get it in the game. Et viola. Perfectly fine secret without any high production costs.

Or: Destroy the Radio station (KTIT?) and all billboards in the level change to white with black letters saying "Obey", "Submit" or "Consume". You know what I mean, I think. There are hundreds of possibilites to make interactivity fun and funny without having high costs.

----

And yes, Randy is a liar.

[Kathy]

kaisersoze, on 14 June 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Do you think Gearbox can do the I.P. justice at this point?

No, but neither can 3DR. Duke is better off with GBX than 3DR.

fuegerstef, on 14 June 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

I think 3DR know very well, that the next Duke game can't be a $60 AAA++ title. And personally I would be very fine with a $19.95 Duke game that is true to the original spirit of the IP

That's an interesting thought, but I'm not convinced.

[fuegerstef]

Cathy, on 14 June 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

That's an interesting thought, but I'm not convinced.

I might be totally wrong. But I can't believe GBX and 2K (who still have the publishing rights) will go the way of making Duke a non-modern shooter. We might get more weapons at once this time, but I am 99.67% sure that we will get a "cinematic experience" as Randy for example described A:CM. A game that turned into COD-gameplay-clone #1432 after you had shot a few aliens and then mainly fought humans again and then having the typical cutscene-contaminated gameplay which also was slow as hell again.
I am also sure (just that feeling I have) that they won't go the route of a budget shooter for that IP at all and thus have to go with trying to appeal to the masses.

And that is something that went wrong with DNF too (talking solely about the lastest version, we all know there went wrong a lot more). Development time was wasted to make an animation for opening a few screws when shrunk or how he hopped into the Mighty Foot-truck. Jeezez, let us stay in 1st person if we have to have vehicles and just let me drive this thing.

In Serious Sam 3 I had to bring eight cansiters of gas to my car. And I heard nobody complain about the lack of an animation how he refilled tha car. For Duke they spent probably a few days making the refill animation. Those are days that could be spent differently.

[Kathy]

Mr. Tibbs, on 14 June 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

I thought Randy said Blum was his hero?

Only on pre-release.

fuegerstef, on 14 June 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

I am also sure (just that feeling I have) that they won't go the route of a budget shooter for that IP at all and thus have to go with trying to appeal to the masses.

Going old-school for the sake of it wouldn't be much better.

[fuegerstef]

Cathy, on 14 June 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

Going old-school for the sake of it wouldn't be much better.

Not for the sakeof it, but for gameplay it would be: Not stupidly trying to copy it but making a shooter about shooting again instead of watching stupid animations would be a step in teh right direction. Preferrably something else than the infamous chesthighwalls for the 678324th time. Oh, and I believe if the walking speed is a bit faster than my grandma can walk in water up to her hips would also be welcomed by the majority of Duke fans.

[Ronin]

fuegerstef, on 14 June 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

And I think a low- or mid-budget can work very well. I will take Serious Sam 3 as an example. Not for gameplay but for how they managed cutscenes. Please note. I am using the cutscenes only as example, that principle could be transferred to interactivity and all that so that you still have the fun but with less costs for some cinematic stuff nobody needs anyways if you want to PLAY a game instead of WATCHING it (I am looking at you Deus Ex HR. Just when I got into the groove of the gameplay I was interrupted by a loooong boring cutscene. And that happend constantly until I gave up on that crap).

I agree, though I do love long detailed cut scenes in some games (games where it makes sense, like Metal Gear/Mass effect), the Duke character has no need for them as he is a single minded killing machine, we don't need to know how he feels etc, it's meant to be fun, violent escapist, fantasy. Duke 3D has great atmosphere with little to no story, your knowledge of the world is build up by little things like posters and weird graffiti and signs, and that worked just fine. Plus it had mystery, I used to look at the charts of the alien experiments and and make my own mind up about what was going on, subtleties like that are gone from a lot of modern games in place of more distracting obvious set pieces, but to me it's the little details that fill in the gaps and end up defining my memory's of the experience.

[fuegerstef]

Ronan, on 14 June 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

Duke 3D has great atmosphere with little to no story, your knowledge of the world is build up by little things like posters and weird graffiti and signs, and that worked just fine. Plus it had mystery, I used to look at the charts of the alien experiments and and make my own mind up about what was going on, subtleties like that are gone from a lot of modern games in place of more distracting obvious set pieces, but to me it's the little details that fill in the gaps and end up defining my memory's of the experience.

This.

But that's not what the majority people want (so it is not possible to do in an AAA+ title when you want to earn a buck with your game). They want it all presented to them on a silver plate. Exploring? Using my mind to connect the hints on posters, charts? Finding the way to the next imporant point by myslef? Aiming without assistance? No thank you.

You are totally right. Gaming is an interactive medium. And thus storytelling should be interactive too. You get the main parts of the story (aliens here, that's bad, they need to go) and then can decide yourself how deep you want to dig into the details.

[Kathy]

fuegerstef, on 14 June 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

And thus storytelling should be interactive too.

One of the best things about making games(or anything else art-related) is having a choice. Without non-interactive stories you woudn't be able to appreciate interactive ones, and vice-versa. So no, it really shouldn't be.

[fuegerstef]

Cathy, on 14 June 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

So no, it really shouldn't be.

For a Duke FPS it should be.

Another thing for Duke is: Don't let him do stuff a lot players wouldn't do.

There was a study (cannot find link) that said that people who are insecure in life or haven't found their role in life yet and aren't that satsfied with their real life tend to create avatars in games that are mighty exaggerated warrors (I think those are also the ones ones that call themselves "666_MegaKiller_1337") and those who already found their role in life and are satisfied with their lifes tend to create avatars that mostly look close to themselves.
The former group also tends to to enjoy games more where a fully fleshed out character takes actions by himself and the players play this character presented to them. The latter prefer games with heroes like Gordon Freeman where they player is basically the protagonist and fills the void with himself.

Duke is perfect for that. He has a very basic stereotypic personality which can be filled by the player but also offers a bit of the I am an alien-ass-kicking-badass. Enough for one group and little enough for the other group. In DNF, though, I had to start with a Duke who decided to have women by his side which I had thrown out of the window (or at least had sent into an education- and behavior-correction-camp).

For me and my tastes a very good game is HL in that regard. The character is in a situation similar to something we all had been in in some sort of: Going to work or school and fulfilling our duties there. Something we can relate to. That is all. The rest are events that are forced upon him.
On the other hand I hated UT3's "story" for example. I went to the shop and bought UT3 because I wanted to take part in an intergalactic tournament. Then the main protagonist decides that he wants to go into a war because of some slain civilians I didn't even know or even care for. WTF?

Another good example of the same intention for player and protagonist is Monkey Island:
- Player goes to shop, sees pirate game and says "Cool, I wanna play a pirate".
- Full backstory for Protagonist: "I wanna be a pirate".

Perfect match.

This of course works with more detail. I fI play Crysis for exmaple I am OK with getting orders what to do from the Generals and stuff, because that's what I expect when I play a game with soldiers. The same goes for COD too, at least in that one regard. But after that these characters often live their own life which is totally disconnected from me, my characteristics and what I would do in some situations. So I watch something and somebody totally unrelated until the gameplay sequences where I take control again.

[kaisersoze]

TerminX, on 14 June 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

You heard about a case that was filed barely a week ago "quite a while back?"

Dibs on borrowing your time machine.

Heard about Gearbox owing money to 3DR. Not the lawsuit.

I hope that's clear enough.

Times machines are property of the Illuminati and Reptilians so I have no access to those............

[fuegerstef]

kaisersoze, on 14 June 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Heard about Gearbox owing money to 3DR. Not the lawsuit.

THe sources for that would be interesting, because it could shed light on some things. For me (and I think a lot of others, here) it currently looks like that from one day to another 3DR decide that they need money (I know that there is more to it, you don't sue from one day til the next without reason). But it would be interesting where you heard that.

[Jimmy 100MPH]

Mr. Tibbs, on 14 June 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Somehow this didn't happen, of course. We suddenly were told by Triptrych that 2K/GBX said it didn't recoup expenses and wouldn't be paying them any royalties, so there was not going be trickle down to us, obviously; seemed like the accounting changed magically, like some sort of fucking music industry deal you hear about. Well, at least we subsequently got giant raises to complete the DNF DLC and the two BL2 DLCs. Live and learn. But needless to say there's a few ex-Triptytch employees watching this closely, popcorn in hand. If they owe 3DR money, they owe Triptych money, I think, and therefore possibly me, money."

This is the lynch-pin to Gearbox Shovelware's problems. They don't give a shit about the game unless it's Borderlands. This is why DNF sucked, this is why A:CM sucked.

kaisersoze, on 14 June 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

What do you guys think of 3DR ie: Scott and George potentially getting the Duke I.P. back from Gearbox? Do you think Gearbox can do the I.P. justice at this point?

I hope it just gets buried at this point for a few years. Let things cool down, then get a studio on it without their head up their ass.

fuegerstef, on 14 June 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

AFAIK Scott and George were very supportive of Reloaded. And if Interceptor proves it's talent with ROTT I can imagine that you would see a Duke game sooner if it is produced (!!!) by 3DR than you'd see a Duke game developed by Tryptich under the wings of GBX.

I think 3DR know very well, that the next Duke game can't be a $60 AAA++ title. And personally I would be very fine with a $19.95 Duke game that is true to the original spirit of the IP (ie: not a Lo Wang that looks as if being the bad guy from the later and even worse Resident Evil movies and turning it into Hard Reset just with other models for the enemies and leaving out the city environments).

Just my personal thoughts.

Ya know, I loved to give Interceptor shit, but they've truly done a marvelous job with RotT, especially when compared to Shadow Warrior. The new RotT is modern, but it still feels like a RotT game to me. Hats off to you folks.

Ronan, on 14 June 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

I agree, though I do love long detailed cut scenes in some games (games where it makes sense, like Metal Gear/Mass effect), the Duke character has no need for them as he is a single minded killing machine, we don't need to know how he feels etc, it's meant to be fun, violent escapist, fantasy.

We knew how he felt every time he sputtered off a wisecrack.

[Person of Color]

OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD

[Ronin]

486DX2, on 14 June 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD

HaHa I can't believe I actually know that song, I heard it on one of those god channels, sometimes I watch them when I'm bored and want a cheap laugh.


Snort! Look at those faces! I think that's Gordon Ramsey second to the the front on the right.

[Person of Color]

[Minigunner]

Cathy, on 14 June 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

No, but neither can 3DR. Duke is better off with GBX than 3DR.
...
That's an interesting thought, but I'm not convinced.
...
Going old-school for the sake of it wouldn't be much better.

So you're one of the people who wants the Duke IP to be buried in a certain New Mexico landfill?
Had DNF been released back in 1997-98, it would have sold well (though still not as much as Duke3D) and 3DRealms would have put out a few more Duke games. Unfortunately, DNF's very late release and mediocrity pretty much guarantee the end of commercial Duke games. Therefore, the only worthwhile thing Gearbox can do at this point is put the Duke Nukem character(s) on public domain. The only thing developers would have to worry about is paying John St. John to voice-act.

[Ronin]

Minigunner, on 14 June 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

If Randy were to make Duke public domain, the only real costs would be John's voice-acting.

And a few million, no big deal.

[Hank]

The Duke Returns, on 14 June 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Look who made news


http://www.shacknews...rever-royalties

Someone from Duke4

actually the entire site is listed as the news source - Green and you
http://www.joystiq.c...alties-gearbox/

[Jimmy 100MPH]

[The Lone Duker]

Hank, on 14 June 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

actually the entire site is listed as the news source - Green and you
http://www.joystiq.c...alties-gearbox/

green is the real hero he the one that found the info I just found the link that I gave to nukemdave

[Kathy]

Makes me wonder why there are no actual news about it on main duke4.net page.

[Micky C]

Cathy, on 14 June 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Makes me wonder why there are no actual news about it on main duke4.net page.

Because you haven't submitted it yet

[Lunick]

Green should write on up since he is awesome.

[Master Fibbles]

This is a fascinating saga. Duke3D was Empire Strikes Back, DNF was Return of the Jedi, and now we are in the prequel abominations...

Although, we could be in Empire Strikes Back now (with DNF being the Star Wars Holiday Special)....so, who knows...

[Fox]

I think that you are giving DNF too much credit. It's more like one of these Ewoks spin-offs.

[Tetsuo]

I'd actually agree with Fox here. But, I don't know if I agree with any Duke\Star Wars analogy. Return of The Jedi wasn't that bad as to be compared to DNF. If anything Duke3D was "a new hope" being the first Duke FPS and still prototype tech basically speaking & we skipped ahead to the prequel abominations with DNF and we are still awaiting our empire strikes back or in other words the DNF we where promised all this time.