[----]

Mr. Tibbs, on 15 July 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

There was a comment from a ex-Triptych contractor the other day that Gearbox were really pleased with Forever - until it shipped that is.

Do you happen to still know where that is on the web. I tried to google for some keywords and didn't find anything. Maybe due to lack of coffee now ...

[Mr. Tibbs]

Over at Shacknews, Eskimo Spy (Andrew Baker ex-3dr and Triptych employee) said this about DNF: http://www.shacknews...3#item_30189333

"A lot of people played it, Gearbox ran it through their in-house feedback system extensively. Truckloads of gamers brought in over weeks and weeks to play it and give their opinions. A quote I actually heard: "it's testing better than the first Borderlands game!" Dozens of people way higher up the chain were apparently perfectly happy with it. Just goes to show that you never know what the fuck."

I made a mistake in the previous post when I said he was a contractor. He was involved in project for 6 years. http://andrewdavidba...ess.com/resume/

[----]

Thanks a lot. Rep given, of course.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Thanks dude. I know this is off topic, but man do I feel sorry for Mr. Baker. http://www.shacknews...1#item_30065721

"Recommend a good therapist because this is just years of serious self-doubt and regret coming to a massive head at the worst possible time. I feel betrayed and stupid for having believed the people who said 'DNF is good, keep working on it' (bosses, bosses of bosses, coworkers, etc) when I knew it wasn't. I feel dumb for having somehow thought loyalty to my employers and straight up endurance counted for something when I should have been more self-centered and fucked off and done anything else, should have looked out for my own interests, a long time ago. For believing it when someone said 'if you don't work with us, we can't do it', letting that stroke my ego, and then working for free for close to a year to help cobble DNF together, just to get screwed over and then 'rescued'. For voicing concern after concern with the development for months and months and just getting shrugs or 'you're overreacting, it's not that bad'. For trusting that our new benefactors wouldn't screw us over, would really help to make it better. For believing the people who said we'd still make money even if it didn't sell well, so the shit pay for long hours right now isn't that bad. For eventually actually believing it wasn't that bad, that hey it could actually do well, all these people can't be wrong! but then it came out and the public reaction was fucking horrible I started to think I might actually be an insane person], might be delusional, and that's scary. So much shit like that.

I feel punished for being myself, and I don't know where I would or could fit in any more.

I haven't talked to anyone in months, I've not been able to really concentrate for months. I thought I had friends here in town but it turned out I didn't, I had coworkers. When I got let go from the last job, it was like I stopped existing. My job was my life but somehow I never really realized it. Now I barely leave my apartment, I sleep four or five hours a night at most. I feel so supremely fucked up all the time and just try and keep trying to learn new stuff and was able to work on random projects for a long time as a kind of therapy, but the fact that I've been working towards a half-dozen goals at once and none of them have come to fruition or have totally dead-ended when I reached my limit(s), is really getting me down. This chance for a job came along and I was suddenly so excited again, but then as the days went on, and bits of reality crept back in, and I started thinking about and really visualizing this situation and if I could even keep my shit together to get through the 'getting the job' process and then moved across the goddamn country again, then going through working with all new people and not freaking out or turning them off and then it 'oh hell what if go there and just get fired after a few weeks when they realize how shit I am? I'll just be another place I don't know with no one around me I know and I don't know if I can handle that' thoughts crept in, and I shot back down even farther than I have been before, and I'm worried I'm going mental and this is the end of the upward curve of my life and it's all down hill from here. So, no big deal, really.

Even if I do good work and am a good person, I can't see it not just being all for shit. I have burned myself out, worked my balls off, for what feels like less than nothing. I feel like my skills are so rooted in such transient technologies and I've been worked into a corner, a niche too small to really be a career anymore. So, what I think is the reality of the game industry for most people, basically. I feel like I made some horrible decisions a long time ago, and I'm stuck with the results of them, and I can't stand it. But I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm too old to do something new but I might be too old to do this any more."

http://www.shacknews...4#item_30348254 - some earlier DNF details

"Well for a short while it was no regen, but no healthpacks (it wasn't actually health, but 'ego' even way back) but a various ways to regain it in the world. killing dudes gave various amounts depending on different criteria, solving puzzles, drinking/eating food items, destroying stuff in the world, all 'fed your ego' etc..

it just never really got balanced properly that way, you know, stuff like multi-kills/kills in a certain time period awarding bonuses, shrink-stomp kills/special stuff like that awarding near full ego regen (one thing that got implemented and survived to ship, was execution kills refilling the whole ego bar), headshot/locational damage awards, then there was the whole 'is combat hard enough to merit the system?' issue. Adding more enemies just added more opportunities for ego awards, it sort of became a matter of there being no perception of danger. Even trying to space out stuff and boosting enemy HP/damage, you seemed to always come out on top most of the time, unless you were terrible at FPS gaming, then it was a brick wall at times. Of course there was no quicksave or even a checkpoint save system then, you just restarted the whole level which was annoying. With proper checkpoint saves (not added until pretty late in development, after the 2 weapon/regen health Haloifacation) it would have been totally workable... with some system-designer TLC, and level and combat design guidelines, IMO.

As it shipped, checkpoints didn't save health states or the state of world items... so even with a non-regen system, you'd be back at 100% and have all the food and destructbles to blow up/smash again. Eh that'd be cheesy, as well though. There were even floaty number notifications of ego gains, which would have just added to a 'game-ified' DNF... which would have been more fun than the 'wannabe Half-Life 2' way most of it wound up. How to deal with situational environment damage, too.. but my first thought there is just throw piles of food items and handy destructibles in the world. If you really need to occasionally hand out near-infinite health in places, add vending machines. it's all level-setup stuff, no brainer-ey.

LOL one thing that was never going to ship that existed for a while, was corpse-gibbing awarded ego. Pretty macabre at the end of a battle, you go beat pigcop corpses into mushy chinks to get your hp back, or you throw a pipebomb into a pile of bodies for a big boost; ESRB really doesn't like corpse abuse, its tolerated at best, but as an encouraged gameplay element I don't think it would fly...

TLDR the whole thing needed an overall design effort it never got (maybe there was an assumption there wasn't time or manpower for it). It evolved and mutated and wasn't given the attention it needed, became unpopular and annoying... then it was gone for 'well let's just do what other games already did'. That engine ran on consoles like a fat guy up Everest. Some levels were cut into up to four parts (why many seemed oddly short) and still level loading times were terrible. Dead ends, side routes, any excess gameplay space that could be cut, was cut. "

http://www.shacknews...6#item_29046776

"All I know is I needed a job, and got one. I also know that I still don't know what the right decision is when you've been tasked to work on something you're not confident in. It's your job, you're not going to like every single thing you work on, but... having gone through the effort of sticking it out, being loyal to the people above you, and being absolutely implacable and dedicated to getting shit done and shipping the unshippable, I still don't know. All I can say is I hope somebody, someday, appreciates that dedication, however possibly misguided it was. In the end, I knew it was not an ideal product. I couldn't make myself go the launch party, honestly... Finishing DNF was paying my dues. Shit, turned out to be some high-ass dues, though."

He was fired for posting on Shacknews about Triptych's Borderlands 2 DLC: "Well, hey, look what I've been working on for the last year or so." Yep, you read that right. That's all he said - http://www.shacknews...0#item_29028840 Classy move 2K/Triptych/Gearbox!

Sorry for the wall of off-topic text.

[Malgon]

^Wow, that's some depressing stuff there. I wonder how many other 3DR/Triptych guys have gone through and wondered about all the same things. I hope he doesn't let it keep him down forever.

[DavoX]

I can see why they liked it, Because I loved it. I know the game has some issues when it shipped unpatched but to me this is really a case of a game being overhyped and the first reviewer trying to look cool by giving it a 2/10 rating, then everyone jumped on the bandwagon.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Sorry to go back to the ex-Triptych firing story but for me it's the worst thing in this whole Duke saga. I can live with DNF not being the game I wanted or was promised, Gearbox not giving the game the TLC it needed, in some weird, admittedly unseemly, way of protecting their recent investment by shutting down a project that puts their efforts to shame, but I can't stand firing a guy who busted his ass for 6 years, worked for free, was even hailed a hero by Gearbox CEO Randy Pitchford, losing his job for making one innocuous post on a message board. That's disgusting!

[Gambini]

It turns my eyes wet to read what that guy says. DNF not only was a dissapointment for players, it was also for all the people involved on its development -except randy and his pockets- . Shit, it seems it changed so many lives in those years and yet it´s a lifeless game. What a sick joke.

[Mr. Tibbs]

They own the rights to three major franchises (http://forums.gearbo...656#post2185656) that are so populuar they're breaking records.
http://www.ign.com/a...ng-2k-game-ever and http://www.ign.com/a...w-title-of-2009

Yet they choose to behave in this petty fashion. New deals so the money doesn't trickle down to the people who actually made the product. That maybe par of the course for game development, but Gearbox isn't your average studio. Randy shouldn't have made such a big deal about how much their work and sacrifice meant to him and the company.

– at the 5:00 mark

“I’m going to read their names right now because there are so many unsung heroes and these are the guys… it’s their game. Andrew Baker…”

[Jimmy]

[Kathy]

Was he working for GBX or Triptych? Aren't Triptych supposed to be independent?

[Minigunner]

Mostly. AFAIK They worked in Gearbox's office when finishing DNF. It's possible that they've merged with Gearbox, but I also have no idea what happened to them since DNF.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Yep Triptych's indepdant. Going by that Shacknews post someone from Gearbox complained. They probably wanted to avoid a repeat of Mass Effect 3-like allegations of cutting content for DLC. That was enormous fiasco. Sounds like he lost his job and his friends/co-workers didn't stand beside him. Gearbox would control the contracts with Triptych. The ex-2k PR exec Elizabeth Tobey complains in the thread a the firing as a total over-reaction. "Shacknews: teaching devs to never talk about their work ever."

[Ronin]

Gambini, on 16 July 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

It turns my eyes wet to read what that guy says. DNF not only was a dissapointment for players, it was also for all the people involved on its development -except randy and his pockets- . Shit, it seems it changed so many lives in those years and yet it´s a lifeless game. What a sick joke.

Yeah it's pretty sad to see what happened to those who got caught up in the web of bullshit that is DNF, it's not like they made a horrible game on purpose just to annoy people, they just got it all wrong and the mistakes seem all the worse because they had so much time to make something mind blowing. I still enjoyed the game on a few different levels, nostalgia, freak show, denial of reality, and seeing my old friends like Battlelord with modern graphics, I actually loved the enemy models in DNF and thought they looked exactly how they should. The game also has some nice moments and cool music that remind you that you are playing as Duke, which helps as sometimes you will find it hard to believe. Also that part where you fight the Enforcer while shrunk was inspired.

[Radar]

I've already committed myself to never buying a Gearbox game. The worst thing I could do is support them with my money.

[Ronin]

Radar, on 16 July 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

I've already committed myself to never buying a Gearbox game. The worst thing I could do is support them with my money.

The horrible thing is they do make really solid games when they put their muscle behind them. I would buy their Duke game because I know they are capable of making a decent one, it won't be anything like Duke 3D but it will be a solid shooter with Duke in it but with lots to gripe about, like linearity, lack of mod tools, too much sex stuff, too much poor to average humour shoved in your face and high chances of an annoying sidekick that would make you beg for Dillon to return. But it would be fun.... for a while. If they had half a brain they would heavily consult with the many modders that have kept the torch burning for all these years and know what works, but they won't. I still find it hard to believe that Randy Dickford actually made some decent levels for Duke 3D.

[Jimmy]

From what I understand, and I could be incorrect, Triptych was independent before the Gearbox buyout of DNF, and then they became a sub-studio of Gearbox.

Gearbox Shovelware hasn't developed a good game since Half Life: Decay.

[Ronin]

Jimmy, on 16 July 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Gearbox Shovelware hasn't developed a good game since Half Life: Decay.

It's certainly not to everyone's tastes but Borderlands 2 was a solid loot em up with some nice art and enemy encounters and the humour was ok not great but not too bad either. It still contained many stupid design choices.

We will never get the Duke game we want. Never, not from them, it will be decent but not what we want. We all want different things from a Duke game, they will go with what gamers in general want and they will probably succeed but it will be a different Duke again.

[Radar]

"Solid games"? What, Borderlands? I think I'll pass.

[Ronin]

Radar, on 16 July 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

"Solid games"? What, Borderlands? I think I'll pass.

Yeah, it's not for everyone, but it does what it sets out to do, and it does it well, you have to compare it to games like Diablo and such where the loot hunt is what drives it. I am not going to champion Borderlands, it's flawed as everything is but it's solid as it delivers on what is expected of it. It does not fail and it does not excel at anything in particular so the word solid is apt. To me solid is not amazing or mediocre, just decent. Any Gearbox Shovelware game I buy will be bought with an after taste of guilt as I don't like the way they work.

[MusicallyInspired]

Or you could, you know, not buy anything and be free of guilt.

[Ronin]

MusicallyInspired, on 16 July 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

Or you could, you know, not buy anything and be free of guilt.

Very true, but I had a lot of fun with Borderlands 2 and at the end of the day there is a lot of talented guys with mouths to feed that also profit off of my weakness for good games. I hate the corporate stooges at the head of Gearbox Shovelware and their profit charts, and margins, and boatloads of obnoxious behaviour that goes on behind the scenes. In fact fuck it, I can't defend myself, I know it's wrong to buy from some company that you hate, making me in many ways part of the problem, I also buy food products from company's that are fucking up the planet and peoples lives, even my own.

We are born into this mess, and there's fuck all we can do about it, sometimes you just get so used to rolling with the punches that you don't even feel them any more.

[----]

You will never get another good or decent Duke game from GBX. For two reasons.

1) Business. The game needs to be AAA (also because 2K is involved) and thus willl have design (gameplay and character) that needs to appeal to the masses
2) Skill. THere is no skill at GBX for shooters. Boredomlands is a looting RPG with poor shooting mechanics. ACM doesn't need to be explained further.

[Jimmy]

Ronan, on 16 July 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

It's certainly not to everyone's tastes but Borderlands 2 was a solid loot em up with some nice art and enemy encounters and the humour was ok not great but not too bad either. It still contained many stupid design choices.

Meh. It's better than Borderlands 1, I will give it that. But it feels more like an indie game. It's just the same old shit over and over and over again. It's not even fun for the whole game like Diablo. You just end up level grinding and spending hours comparing stats between weapons. That game is full of you just sitting around with your thumb up your ass.

[----]

Jimmy, on 16 July 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

Meh. It's better than Borderlands 1, I will give it that. But it feels more like an indie game. It's just the same old shit over and over and over again. It's not even fun for the whole game like Diablo. You just end up level grinding and spending hours comparing stats between weapons. That game is full of you just sitting around with your thumb up your ass.

And graphically it relies on the cellshading look. The very first screenshots of BL1, before it was cellshaded, looked ... well, amateurish and bland (and not in a wasteland sense of bland like for example Rage does) ... they were released at the same time as GoW and UT3 and Crysis1 came out. So, IMHO, GBX saw that the only way they could even survive with these graphics is to go comic.

[Mr. Tibbs]

fuegerstef, on 16 July 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

And graphically it relies on the cellshading look.

Borderlands "look" was inspired by/borrowed from this short film - http://www.gatheryou...pound-of-flesh/

http://www.forbes.co...n-the-industry/ In a recent interview (http://www.nerdist.c...andy-pitchford/ - at 38:40) Randy said there was an awesome short that inspired them and the similarities were "direct homages" and "easter eggs" not plagiarism, guys.

[----]

Mr. Tibbs, on 17 July 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Borderlands "look" was inspired by/borrowed from this short film - http://www.gatheryou...pound-of-flesh/

http://www.forbes.co...n-the-industry/ In a recent interview (http://www.nerdist.c...andy-pitchford/ - at 38:40) Randy said there was an awesome short that inspired them and the similarities were "direct homages" and "easter eggs" not plagiarism, guys.

That doesn't affect why I think they needed a different look than it first was. Although I think the bland look fitted the bland gameplay better. On Beyondunreal there are a few early shots buried. Hard to find. I will look for them later.

[DukeNukem64]

I made this topic to speak about Reloaded not everything else guys
However I'm excited for interceptors new project which is classified. Pathfinder is the codename for the project. I am suspecting it to be a duke nukem game. : http://interceptor-e...lio/pathfinder/

[----]

DukeNukem64, on 17 July 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

I made this topic to speak about Reloaded not everything else guys

Much appreciated, but there are so many threads about Reloaded already and nothing really new happened to it for almost 2 years now (and won't unless for some reason the rights end up in Apogees/3DR's hands again).

GBX bashing on the other hand never gets old and is also more than required.

[DukeNukem64]

Well the project that interceptor is working on is NOT for PC. Which could mean that it is in fact a duke game. You can look earlier in this thread and find out that it is an actual possibility because apogee owns the right for 2 more non-pc duke nukem games. :-) I am hoping for the best.