[MusicallyInspired]

James, on 18 July 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

You can grab the classic version free on Steam. It's a better game than Duke, if you give it the chance (3DR had a better grip on the Build engine after Duke and it really shows)

Oh I have it. And Redux as well. I haven't had time to play it though. I meant that I never got a hold of it when I was younger and by the time I first tried it I didn't really get into it as much as I would have for whatever reason. I'd like to get into it. I'm not saying I don't like the game I'm saying I never got a chance to get into it.

My point is I don't know enough about the game to understand why that screenshot is so alarming.

[Radar]

Shadow Warrior was not better than Duke.

[Bloodshot]

HL2's architecture was heavily based on Eastern European architecture...so maybe you go to Eastern Europe?

[OpenMaw]

Radar, on 18 July 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Shadow Warrior was not better than Duke.

Yeah i've never understood that notion. Yes, Shadow Warrior did have some engine improvements, and some AI improvements... So, strictly from a technical standpoint... but in terms of fun factor Duke feels like a much better and smoother experience. For one, it has a far better difficulty balance/curve. Shadow Warrior grabs you by the buckle and starts kicking you in the ass almost right away.

[Micky C]

I've come to understand that Shadow Warrior's gameplay is better than Duke. It's deeper and more challenging, so that you have to use all the means at your disposal (read; all weapons and even items) to survive and finish the level. Duke 3D on the other hand isn't challenging at all most of the time (especially when wielding some of the higher tier weapons) and relies on sheer numbers for difficulty.

However IMO Shadow Warrior's level design, while fairly solid and detailed, is just a bit too maze-like and has you wondering aimlessly trying to figure out where to go next too often, which detracts from the experience.

[Jimmy]

Shadow Warrior needed Levelord.

[Rellik]

Hendricks266, on 18 July 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Doesn't this remind anyone else of the second level?

Maybe, but my first thought was the shipyard in Deus Ex:HR.

[Radar]

So what if Shadow Warrior is harder? Not sure how that helps a game for the good. Duke had better level design and setting.

[Jblade]

Since I guess I need to remind people, when I say this A) it's obviously stating my personel preference and I'm not trying to make it a fact that SW is better than Duke, I shouldn't need to say this, and B ) I played both near enough at release time, and I'm still modding for Duke to this day.

As Micky said, Shadow Warrior was better because they improved the utility of the weapons and made more of them useful - compared to Duke's weapons you end up using more of them. The added inventory items are more useful than Duke's in comparison (which is clearly intended more for Dukematch, and that's fine) It still wasn't perfect - I never used the Heart much as it's effectiveness wasn't consistant enough and some of the inventory items were still clearly better for multiplayer than SP, but they refined what they learned on Duke and put it to good use in SW. The enemies are more varied, smarter, have more attacks, and are far more dangerous BUT aren't bullet sponges so as long as you know how to use the weapons you've got effectively, you're good to go (Missile launcher is a good balanced attack, although innaccurate at long range, the Grenade Launcher does amazing damage and has a huge hitradius but isn't a great weapon to be using when the enemy is close by) I don't agree about the levels, SW's were far more interactive, had way more secrets, and just felt alive (and the music soundtrack was really atmospheric too)

Of course I still love Duke dearly, don't ever mistake me saying I think SW is better than Duke that Duke is a bad game, that's just such a ridiculously black and white view of taking what I said.

Also the beta info on Shadow Warrior is quite interesting - I think they ultimately changed it since the plot sounded too similar to RoTT (A Cult on an island has a great evil behind it, they send a badass to take care of it)

[X-Vector]

Shadow Warrior is a good example of the "less is more" idiom; it just feels feels messy in terms of level design and texturing, where Duke Nukem 3D (while not perfect in all accounts) gets the look and atmosphere just right and I greatly prefer the setting.
SW has got some really nice weaponry (that rocket launcher would have been great for Duke), but that's about it for me.

[Lunick]

The grenade launcher is so satisfying to use and you all know it.

[Komenja]

And the Uzis. Not enough games have dual Uzis!

[Klapher]

This new game looks nothing like old game. Wtf........
It makes no sense how they made it look so generic
They could just remake remake like it was hd and put over the old graphics new ones.
What's so hard? Why change the all of the game?

[Lunick]

Klapher, on 20 July 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

This new game looks nothing like old game. Wtf........
It makes no sense how they made it look so generic
They could just remake remake like it was hd and put over the old graphics new ones.
What's so hard? Why change the all of the game?

Because it is a reboot, not a remake. And I'm not even sure if making the original Shadow Warrior a HD remake is the best idea ever when people can't even complete level 1 anymore these days. I have seen so many threads on the Redux and Classic forums about how people can't beat the first level... Sad really.

[Mr.Deviance]

Lunick, on 20 July 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Because it is a reboot, not a remake. And I'm not even sure if making the original Shadow Warrior a HD remake is the best idea ever when people can't even complete level 1 anymore these days. I have seen so many threads on the Redux and Classic forums about how people can't beat the first level... Sad really.

That's what you get when you raise an entire generation of little shits with fps games where you can only hold 2, 3 or 4 weapons at once, you have auto aim, rechargeable health when you duck behind a wall for 5 seconds, A.I that is basically painting a bullseye on their chest and beg you to shoot them while they stare at you and do nothing, weapon pickups from every enemy that you kill that replenish your ammo almost entirely with one pickup...
Of course they can't beat the first level anymore when they probably attempt to play it with a gamepad instead of mouse and keyboard as it was designed to be played.
The fps games that required skill are doomed...
The new generation of gamers in it's majority, can't even play a game with a mouse and keyboard as they consider such hardware antiquated and belonging to the past.

[Micky C]

He probably means more due to the layout of the level itself. It definitely isn't a simple level, with multiple keys, vents that you have to crawl through, and a puzzle or two.
The Shadow Warrior levels are very good at making the player end up in the same area no matter which way you go, and sometimes important items are somewhat hidden among the map details.

[Mr.Deviance]

Micky C, on 20 July 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

He probably means more due to the layout of the level itself. It definitely isn't a simple level, with multiple keys, vents that you have to crawl through, and a puzzle or two.
The Shadow Warrior levels are very good at making the player end up in the same area no matter which way you go, and sometimes important items are somewhat hidden among the map details.

I never truly was a fan of this game but I did play some levels of it and I did beat the first few levels back in the day and I never really found it that punishing.
And I did see some videos where some so called experienced shadow warrior players would die constantly in the first level.
I own shadow warrior on steam since some months now because it was on a sale so I got it for my collection and played it a bit.
If you've played duke3d in your life, you will know how to get about this game too.

[Kathy]

Mr.Deviance, on 20 July 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

The new generation of gamers in it's majority, can't even play a game with a mouse and keyboard as they consider such hardware antiquated and belonging to the past.

You can't be talking about PC gaming here. Do they browse also via gamepad?

[Micky C]

That's true more or less. But Shadow Warrior loves to actually hide their keycards in annoying places a lot more than Duke does.

I've never been able to get past level 19 water torture. That thing's an absolute bitch to navigate. I explore several times, only ever coming across locked doors and coming back to the same areas.
I hated shadow warrior when I first played it, mostly due to the level design. The reason why I like it now is because I'm more familiar with the mazes and where the keycards are hidden, so I can just sit back and enjoy the exploration and combat without all the original stress. On the other hand I never had that same level of frustration with Duke's level design.

[Mr.Deviance]

Kathy, on 20 July 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

You can't be talking about PC gaming here. Do they browse also via gamepad?

Lots of "gamers" these days don't even know how to use a pc...
At most they use their mom's and pop's laptop for browsing from time to time but most of them would rather use a console for their gaming and tablets or phones for internet browsing, youtube or music.
The gaming pc has no place in most of today's gamers lives.
Console is for gaming, and laptops/phones and tablets are the replacement for pc.
Why do you think the high end gpu prices have skyrocketed so much in the last 5 years?
And windows 8's debut hasn't really helped pc sales either, quite the contrary sadly.

[Kathy]

But you were talking about people on Steam having difficulty completing SW levels then, I guess, you get carried away.

Quote

The gaming pc has no place in most of today's gamers lives.

Wasn't it way worse 5-10 years ago?

[MusicallyInspired]

Yeah, I definitely believe PC gaming has reinstated itself somewhat in the last few years. 6 years ago it felt like it was dying off. With the advent of things like GoG and Steam pushing ahead, the Humble Indie Bundles and such, there's still plenty of life left in PC gaming. I actually believe PC gaming is bigger nowadays then it was, seeing as how the the recent console titles and new console systems just seem to suck lately.

[Jblade]

Micky C, on 20 July 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

He probably means more due to the layout of the level itself. It definitely isn't a simple level, with multiple keys, vents that you have to crawl through, and a puzzle or two.
The Shadow Warrior levels are very good at making the player end up in the same area no matter which way you go, and sometimes important items are somewhat hidden among the map details.

Sometimes, although the voxels do help the keycard models stand out quite alot. It's nowhere near as bad as Redneck Rampage though, which has tiny black key sprites and doesn't even tell you what key you need to open a door. THAT is terrible, and I'm trying to batter my way through the game to say I've beat it but it's getting pretty hard (and the gameplay isn't too great either, with bulletsponge enemies and a lack of guns that have punch plus the fact that healing isn't easy)

[Micky C]

I've been playing some Hard Reset, and while it's a fun game, to me it has absolutely no replay value what so ever. The combat isn't bad but it just feels a bit clunky with your slow movement speed, inability to crouch and low jump height.

If Shadow Warrior is anything like Hard Reset, it will probably be a fun game, but definitely something I'd only get on a large sale. Btw, they better not have some kind of point based upgrade system in Shadow Warrior. That sort of thing absolutely does not belong in a shadow warrior game, reboot or not. I always find things like that somewhat distracting, in a bad way.

[LkMax]

Micky C, on 20 July 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

That's true more or less. But Shadow Warrior loves to actually hide their keycards in annoying places a lot more than Duke does.

I've never been able to get past level 19 water torture. That thing's an absolute bitch to navigate. I explore several times, only ever coming across locked doors and coming back to the same areas.
I hated shadow warrior when I first played it, mostly due to the level design. The reason why I like it now is because I'm more familiar with the mazes and where the keycards are hidden, so I can just sit back and enjoy the exploration and combat without all the original stress. On the other hand I never had that same level of frustration with Duke's level design.

This is the worst thing about Shadow Warrior and Redneck Rampage (specially Redneck Rampage): the developers had a really anoying habit of hiding the keycards in secret spots. To fully enjoy these games sometimes I had to look for walkthroughs. In the "Water Torture" level, for example, I was stuck right in the beginning because I couldn't find this damn keycard. I remember another level in Shadow Warrior where they hid the keycard on the top of a chimney, accessable via a hidden stair, and in Redneck Rampage I was stuck countless times, but one of the most ridiculous moments was when I found out I had to jump on a diving board to open a secret door inside the pool to get the key.

I don't remember ever having this problem in Duke Nukem 3D.
Other inconvenience in SW was the difficulty progession: right in the first level you encounter a few of the hardest enemies in the game (e.g. the invisible ninja). It was more balanced on Duke3D.

I liked SW and RR but I can see why many people may look at it differently.

James, on 20 July 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Sometimes, although the voxels do help the keycard models stand out quite alot. It's nowhere near as bad as Redneck Rampage though, which has tiny black key sprites and doesn't even tell you what key you need to open a door. THAT is terrible, and I'm trying to batter my way through the game to say I've beat it but it's getting pretty hard (and the gameplay isn't too great either, with bulletsponge enemies and a lack of guns that have punch plus the fact that healing isn't easy)

This guy has plenty of video-playthorughs that may help you if you are willing to watch some of them. I liked the game enough to care but that may not be the case for you or other players.

edit: minor corrections.

[MusicallyInspired]

I acquired e a Hard Reset key somehow a while back. I should really play it sometime...

[t800]

Hmmm, so truly nobody else cares about useable vehicles?
(But feel free to correct me if I am mistaken about absence of any mention of them in released materials so far.)

LkMax, on 21 July 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

I remember another level in Shadow Warrior where they hid the keycard on the top of a chimney, accessable via a hidden stair, and in Redneck Rampage I was stuck countless times, but one of the most ridiculous moments was when I found out I had to jump on a diving board to open a secret door inside the pool to get the key. I don't remember ever having this problem in Duke Nukem 3D.

Dont even get me started on that stupid ladder hidden in chimney in Zillas villa. I was stuck there for so long, it took me almost ages to figure out. But Duke has similar problems to this too... *cough*red keycard from Babe land*cough*

Quote

Other inconvenience in SW was the difficulty progession: right in the first level you encounter a few of the hardest enemies in the game (e.g. the invisible ninja). It was more balanced on Duke3D.

Well, if you dont count absence of Guardians (those green orc monsters) and female assasins, which is obvious due to nature of limited content of shareware version, you get almost all enemies even in first episode. Actually, I think Shadow Warrior entirely lacks of any monster-ratio/difficulty progression. (But frankly, I dont miss it at all.) Just look at second episode - beginning levels situated in rural and temle-like enviroments actually include much more enemies (around 100-120 on hardest difficulty) than for example later city levels (around 60-70 on hardest).

[Jblade]

Quote

Hmmm, so truly nobody else cares about useable vehicles?

I think most people agree with you actually! The tanks and turrets were one of the most hyped up parts of Shadow Warrior, and while rare they were fun to use. I honestly doubt we'll get that in this new Shadow Warrior, but hopefully I'm wrong.

Quote

Actually, I think Shadow Warrior entirely lacks of any monster-ratio/difficulty progression. (But frankly, I dont miss it at all.

This is true, the same thing applies to Duke as well. Doom 2 had a pretty good monster progression ratio. It's kind of a hard thing to gauge really; on the one hand it's cool to fight more powerful enemies and get bigger weapons as you progress, but on the other hand if it takes 3/4 of a game to get there that's only a 1/4 of a game that you get to play with it's whole toolset and fight it's entire range of badguys. If you get it all and see it all from the start (like in Duke and Shadow Warrior) it means that the majority of levels you're playing with the full potential of fights.

[Hendricks266]

LkMax, on 21 July 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

I don't remember ever having this problem in Duke Nukem 3D.

Duke Burger?

As a little kid I remember having trouble both in E1L2 and E1L3 because I didn't know to go in the vent (in the strip club) and behind the poster respectively.

[Engel220]

I asked SW's official Twitter about in-game interactivity, mentioning vehicle gameplay and the mini RC cars as examples, and their response was this:

"Not those exact things but there is certainly some fun stuff to find and play with in the new game. "