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Duke 3D #1
Mr. Tibbs, on 24 June 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:
Thanks for posting. Although the "article" is an abomination itself, and I feel my 17-year-old interest of the game have been insulted grossly. What a shame.
RELEASE: DUKE NUKEM FOREVER 2013 "it wasn´t a hoax."
#481 Posted 24 June 2013 - 10:51 PM
Thanks for posting. Although the "article" is an abomination itself, and I feel my 17-year-old interest of the game have been insulted grossly. What a shame.
#482 Posted 24 June 2013 - 11:01 PM
TerminX, on 24 June 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:
I sent the mag's editor my opinion of the article.
Zero fucks given in regards to what they think of it.
Spoiler
Zero fucks given in regards to what they think of it.
Wonderful read!
#483 Posted 26 June 2013 - 06:18 AM
Hi all,
I'm the author of the contentious Duke Nukem Forever 2013 mod review. Normally I don't do this kind of thing, but as someone who sank many many hours into Duke3D and Doom back in the 1990s, I was concerned that some took me to be a clueless noob on the basis of the review.
As mentioned, I'm in contact with Terminx via email and do hope to put together a feature on eduke32 which should reference this community. I would like to say that I am in fact all about classic gaming - that's the main reason I'm responding here.
So I've written another version of that review, one that is able to assume an audience that likes playing Duke3D mods and knows what the hell the game even is - a luxury I didn't have within the pages of the magazine. Enjoy or destroy, as you will!
DECLARATION OF BIAS
Any reviewer who claims true objectivity is, well, not a very good reviewer. Reviews are opinion pieces filtered through a standard framework for assessing a game.
I was always a Doom guy (and more contemporaneously to Duke3D, Quake). I preferred Doom to Duke3D. However, as a reviewer I am mindful that Doom is not "objectively" a better game than Duke3D and I make certain to highlight the shortcomings of both in equal measure to their strengths.
Though I have never built a map in Duke3D, I did build extensively in Doom - first with the visplane limitations of the original release (frustrating!), and then later with Ultimate Doom and using new renderers such as zDoom. I have a basic grounding in the way binary space partitioning works, and with so-called 2.5D engines that use polygonal sectors as the basic building blocks of their virtual space.
I have never designed a map with room-over-room much less true-room-over-room functionality. I never used ACS in my Doom levels - they were pretty basic, core-gameplay in their design.
As a result, I may express some things incorrectly or in insufficiently specific terms. All I can do is beg your indulgence!
THE PREVIOUS PIECE
The review that appeared in the paper edition of PC PowerPlay was written for a general audience and as a reflection on the ultimate fate of DNF - a game we waited 15 years for (depending how you count it).
It contained a couple of errors. One was a reference to Human Head - the reference should have been to Gearbox. The other was describing a railing as "literally one dimensional" - I confess I didn't analyse the map geometry at that point so I'm not sure if the railing was just a texture on what I as a Doom guy would call a sidedef (in which case it would be literally two dimensional) or whether it was actually a very thin separate sector which was too easy to accidentally run over the top of... or to be honest if there was a railing there at all. Sometimes, specificity is sacrificed in the name of ironic humour.
PIRATING
Look, people pirate games. As a result, I make jokes about pirating games. Offensive to people who make games? Perhaps. But on the scale of offensive jokes, pretty mild, surely. I don't pirate games. But them I'm a game reviewer so I don't have to
.
A REVIEW FOR DUKE3D FANS
Which brings me to an analysis of this mod for people who consider themselves at least more than passingly familiar with Duke3D and the mods available for it.
The problem with DNF as it was released in 2011 is that it represents, in some ways, a betrayal of the Duke Nukem community. Fans of the game who kept the IP alive in a real sense - ie by playing actual Duke Nukem games instead of just signing licensing agreements and spending millions on corporate lawyers - had come to expect, over a fantastical span of time, an FPS that would push the boundaries of world interactivity, scripting, map design, and more.
Instead they got a generic shooter with dick jokes. As an FPS, the real DNF wasn't terrible, and that's the problem. "Not terrible" is actually worse than terrible. A terrible game could be written off and excised, expunged from the collective consciousness. A not-terrible game just kind of hangs around there with epithets like "well... actually it wasn't that bad, there was this one bit that was okay and it sort of captured some of the spirit of..." No. This is Duke. Duke deserves something more. He deserves the game that the trailers, so many trailers, promised.
Duke Nukem Forever 2013 is part inside-joke, part wry smile and - don't try to deny it - part attempt to make a cardboard-cut-out caricature of an FPS with modern sensibilities inside the restrictions of a 2.5D engine. On the one hand, a mod is a mod - a not-for-profit-or-even-much-fame exercise in creativity. It is, to some extent, outside the scope of regular criticism.
On the other hand, this mod references DNF and boldly attempts to recreate scenes from a true 3D engine. So, apt metaphor: when you stick your head above the parapet, sometimes it gets shot off.
The question is whether Duke Nukem Forever 2013 is a good Duke3D mod. When you have such a vast array of free content to choose from, is an inside joke about a long-delayed sequel enough to justify the time we have to spend with it to see all the classic trailer scenes?
I'd argue that if presented as an unthemed mod - ie without reference to DNF - this mod would be slick, maybe even interesting, but hardly stellar.
The first thing that jarred for me was the placement of keycards. To be honest, in my time away from Duke3D and Doom, I had sort of forgotten the whole "you need the blue keycard" thing.
In my level designs, and in the designs from such people as - gasp - John Romero, the point of the keycards was to create "hub" areas and ensure the level was not a straight corridor run from point A to point B. I've played amazing maps where the positioning of keycards and coloured doors is hugely effective in obscuring the essential linearity of these games.
But in this mod, the keycards are so often placed really close to their respective doors. It's more like a quick double-back or brief detour - and that makes the locks seem pointless. It reminds me that modern FPS doesn't use coloured door locks, and at times it feels like the authors of DNF2013 are similarly rusty with their application.
Now let's talk about scale. Throughout the mod, with some exceptions, Duke felt to me about the size of a child. Sometimes a taller child, but mostly a child. In other words, the world felt too big. Especially in the casino "gaming pit"; running around on the Strip; and probably most of all in the cockpit of the fighter jet. There are also times when the world seems vastly empty - this most of all in the motorcycle sequence driving from the Strip to the highway checkpoints, along those long empty desert roads. So long. So empty. I would get off from time to time to hunt for secret goodies... but no. Just empty.
As for the sequences that pay tribute to that 2001 trailer, some of them work exceptionally well (the pig-breaking-down-the-door sequence, the bike jumping sequence) while others... not so much. The highway battle is conceptually great, but the loop on which the enemy trucks run is simply far too short and the trucks drive far too fast. It's frustrating, and even confusing since the trucks are identical... wait, didn't I shoot that guy already? Are they respawning? Oh, it's a different truck.
And the bit where the harrier jump-jet (or whatever it's supposed to be) spins out of control and "smashes" into the building is an awe-inspiring piece of ahead-of-its-time pyrotechnics in the 2001 trailer, but here a blocky cardboard-box version of the jet runs up against the building and... just stops. Maybe this is a joke, a pitch-perfect bit of irony, but if so, it was insufficiently telegraphed.
This is a pervading problem of tone actually - are we supposed to play the mod at face value, or are we supposed to go "haha, yeah, Build totally sucked at doing that bit, haha"? I'd suggest both... but not always at once.
However, the way this mod pushes you forward through a breakneck story with lots of changes of scenery, lots of set pieces and unique locations and things to do, and the way it uses "real world" locations (as opposed to Quake's essentially abstract geometry) is VERY good. Apart from the graphics - sorry Build - this feels like a modern FPS. Now, that's not necessarily 100% a good thing, there's not much sense of exploration. And linearity? Well, it's based on a trailer. And so you follow the trail...
One of the problems with doing something bold like DNF2013 is that people like me do take notice of it and analyse it far too closely. Criticisms of basic level design aside, this is a really smart idea executed beautifully. With a little tweaking, it could have been a mind-blowing expansion pack to Duke3D in, say, 1997 or 1998. That's intended as a compliment, by the way. Classic games are forgiven much, since they're classics, but this could have wowed audiences when Build was cutting-edge.
And though it appears the authors had this intention furthest from their mind, I do view the mod as a flippage-of-the-bird to the remains of the corporate fuck-fest that was what became of DNF. And even a raised finger to 3Drealms itself perhaps, which ruined the promise of what could have been the greatest unselfconscious FPS of all time by continually switching engines.
Because this mod says, maybe without even meaning to say it, that brilliant gameplay and fun level design isn't about the bells and whistles of a new engine. It's about pushing your existing engine to breaking point and beyond. 3Drealms should have stuck with Unreal, or Build3D, or whatever the hell it used to make that 2001 trailer. And released it in 1999. So Duke could party like it was, well... They should have let the two or three things that engine couldn't do for them go, and made a game like this mod.
Furious fun. A knowing wink. A celebration of the man we call Duke.
I'm the author of the contentious Duke Nukem Forever 2013 mod review. Normally I don't do this kind of thing, but as someone who sank many many hours into Duke3D and Doom back in the 1990s, I was concerned that some took me to be a clueless noob on the basis of the review.
As mentioned, I'm in contact with Terminx via email and do hope to put together a feature on eduke32 which should reference this community. I would like to say that I am in fact all about classic gaming - that's the main reason I'm responding here.
So I've written another version of that review, one that is able to assume an audience that likes playing Duke3D mods and knows what the hell the game even is - a luxury I didn't have within the pages of the magazine. Enjoy or destroy, as you will!
DECLARATION OF BIAS
Any reviewer who claims true objectivity is, well, not a very good reviewer. Reviews are opinion pieces filtered through a standard framework for assessing a game.
I was always a Doom guy (and more contemporaneously to Duke3D, Quake). I preferred Doom to Duke3D. However, as a reviewer I am mindful that Doom is not "objectively" a better game than Duke3D and I make certain to highlight the shortcomings of both in equal measure to their strengths.
Though I have never built a map in Duke3D, I did build extensively in Doom - first with the visplane limitations of the original release (frustrating!), and then later with Ultimate Doom and using new renderers such as zDoom. I have a basic grounding in the way binary space partitioning works, and with so-called 2.5D engines that use polygonal sectors as the basic building blocks of their virtual space.
I have never designed a map with room-over-room much less true-room-over-room functionality. I never used ACS in my Doom levels - they were pretty basic, core-gameplay in their design.
As a result, I may express some things incorrectly or in insufficiently specific terms. All I can do is beg your indulgence!
THE PREVIOUS PIECE
The review that appeared in the paper edition of PC PowerPlay was written for a general audience and as a reflection on the ultimate fate of DNF - a game we waited 15 years for (depending how you count it).
It contained a couple of errors. One was a reference to Human Head - the reference should have been to Gearbox. The other was describing a railing as "literally one dimensional" - I confess I didn't analyse the map geometry at that point so I'm not sure if the railing was just a texture on what I as a Doom guy would call a sidedef (in which case it would be literally two dimensional) or whether it was actually a very thin separate sector which was too easy to accidentally run over the top of... or to be honest if there was a railing there at all. Sometimes, specificity is sacrificed in the name of ironic humour.
PIRATING
Look, people pirate games. As a result, I make jokes about pirating games. Offensive to people who make games? Perhaps. But on the scale of offensive jokes, pretty mild, surely. I don't pirate games. But them I'm a game reviewer so I don't have to
.A REVIEW FOR DUKE3D FANS
Which brings me to an analysis of this mod for people who consider themselves at least more than passingly familiar with Duke3D and the mods available for it.
The problem with DNF as it was released in 2011 is that it represents, in some ways, a betrayal of the Duke Nukem community. Fans of the game who kept the IP alive in a real sense - ie by playing actual Duke Nukem games instead of just signing licensing agreements and spending millions on corporate lawyers - had come to expect, over a fantastical span of time, an FPS that would push the boundaries of world interactivity, scripting, map design, and more.
Instead they got a generic shooter with dick jokes. As an FPS, the real DNF wasn't terrible, and that's the problem. "Not terrible" is actually worse than terrible. A terrible game could be written off and excised, expunged from the collective consciousness. A not-terrible game just kind of hangs around there with epithets like "well... actually it wasn't that bad, there was this one bit that was okay and it sort of captured some of the spirit of..." No. This is Duke. Duke deserves something more. He deserves the game that the trailers, so many trailers, promised.
Duke Nukem Forever 2013 is part inside-joke, part wry smile and - don't try to deny it - part attempt to make a cardboard-cut-out caricature of an FPS with modern sensibilities inside the restrictions of a 2.5D engine. On the one hand, a mod is a mod - a not-for-profit-or-even-much-fame exercise in creativity. It is, to some extent, outside the scope of regular criticism.
On the other hand, this mod references DNF and boldly attempts to recreate scenes from a true 3D engine. So, apt metaphor: when you stick your head above the parapet, sometimes it gets shot off.
The question is whether Duke Nukem Forever 2013 is a good Duke3D mod. When you have such a vast array of free content to choose from, is an inside joke about a long-delayed sequel enough to justify the time we have to spend with it to see all the classic trailer scenes?
I'd argue that if presented as an unthemed mod - ie without reference to DNF - this mod would be slick, maybe even interesting, but hardly stellar.
The first thing that jarred for me was the placement of keycards. To be honest, in my time away from Duke3D and Doom, I had sort of forgotten the whole "you need the blue keycard" thing.
In my level designs, and in the designs from such people as - gasp - John Romero, the point of the keycards was to create "hub" areas and ensure the level was not a straight corridor run from point A to point B. I've played amazing maps where the positioning of keycards and coloured doors is hugely effective in obscuring the essential linearity of these games.
But in this mod, the keycards are so often placed really close to their respective doors. It's more like a quick double-back or brief detour - and that makes the locks seem pointless. It reminds me that modern FPS doesn't use coloured door locks, and at times it feels like the authors of DNF2013 are similarly rusty with their application.
Now let's talk about scale. Throughout the mod, with some exceptions, Duke felt to me about the size of a child. Sometimes a taller child, but mostly a child. In other words, the world felt too big. Especially in the casino "gaming pit"; running around on the Strip; and probably most of all in the cockpit of the fighter jet. There are also times when the world seems vastly empty - this most of all in the motorcycle sequence driving from the Strip to the highway checkpoints, along those long empty desert roads. So long. So empty. I would get off from time to time to hunt for secret goodies... but no. Just empty.
As for the sequences that pay tribute to that 2001 trailer, some of them work exceptionally well (the pig-breaking-down-the-door sequence, the bike jumping sequence) while others... not so much. The highway battle is conceptually great, but the loop on which the enemy trucks run is simply far too short and the trucks drive far too fast. It's frustrating, and even confusing since the trucks are identical... wait, didn't I shoot that guy already? Are they respawning? Oh, it's a different truck.
And the bit where the harrier jump-jet (or whatever it's supposed to be) spins out of control and "smashes" into the building is an awe-inspiring piece of ahead-of-its-time pyrotechnics in the 2001 trailer, but here a blocky cardboard-box version of the jet runs up against the building and... just stops. Maybe this is a joke, a pitch-perfect bit of irony, but if so, it was insufficiently telegraphed.
This is a pervading problem of tone actually - are we supposed to play the mod at face value, or are we supposed to go "haha, yeah, Build totally sucked at doing that bit, haha"? I'd suggest both... but not always at once.
However, the way this mod pushes you forward through a breakneck story with lots of changes of scenery, lots of set pieces and unique locations and things to do, and the way it uses "real world" locations (as opposed to Quake's essentially abstract geometry) is VERY good. Apart from the graphics - sorry Build - this feels like a modern FPS. Now, that's not necessarily 100% a good thing, there's not much sense of exploration. And linearity? Well, it's based on a trailer. And so you follow the trail...
One of the problems with doing something bold like DNF2013 is that people like me do take notice of it and analyse it far too closely. Criticisms of basic level design aside, this is a really smart idea executed beautifully. With a little tweaking, it could have been a mind-blowing expansion pack to Duke3D in, say, 1997 or 1998. That's intended as a compliment, by the way. Classic games are forgiven much, since they're classics, but this could have wowed audiences when Build was cutting-edge.
And though it appears the authors had this intention furthest from their mind, I do view the mod as a flippage-of-the-bird to the remains of the corporate fuck-fest that was what became of DNF. And even a raised finger to 3Drealms itself perhaps, which ruined the promise of what could have been the greatest unselfconscious FPS of all time by continually switching engines.
Because this mod says, maybe without even meaning to say it, that brilliant gameplay and fun level design isn't about the bells and whistles of a new engine. It's about pushing your existing engine to breaking point and beyond. 3Drealms should have stuck with Unreal, or Build3D, or whatever the hell it used to make that 2001 trailer. And released it in 1999. So Duke could party like it was, well... They should have let the two or three things that engine couldn't do for them go, and made a game like this mod.
Furious fun. A knowing wink. A celebration of the man we call Duke.
- Honored Donor
-
#484 Posted 26 June 2013 - 06:49 AM
Anthony Fordham, on 26 June 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:
The problem with DNF as it was released in 2011 is that it represents, in some ways, a betrayal of the Duke Nukem community. Fans of the game who kept the IP alive in a real sense - ie by playing actual Duke Nukem games instead of just signing licensing agreements and spending millions on corporate lawyers - had come to expect, over a fantastical span of time, an FPS that would push the boundaries of world interactivity, scripting, map design, and more.
Instead they got a generic shooter with dick jokes. As an FPS, the real DNF wasn't terrible, and that's the problem. "Not terrible" is actually worse than terrible. A terrible game could be written off and excised, expunged from the collective consciousness. A not-terrible game just kind of hangs around there with epithets like "well... actually it wasn't that bad, there was this one bit that was okay and it sort of captured some of the spirit of..." No. This is Duke. Duke deserves something more. He deserves the game that the trailers, so many trailers, promised.
Instead they got a generic shooter with dick jokes. As an FPS, the real DNF wasn't terrible, and that's the problem. "Not terrible" is actually worse than terrible. A terrible game could be written off and excised, expunged from the collective consciousness. A not-terrible game just kind of hangs around there with epithets like "well... actually it wasn't that bad, there was this one bit that was okay and it sort of captured some of the spirit of..." No. This is Duke. Duke deserves something more. He deserves the game that the trailers, so many trailers, promised.
That actually sums things up pretty nicely.
Quote
Now let's talk about scale. Throughout the mod, with some exceptions, Duke felt to me about the size of a child. Sometimes a taller child, but mostly a child. In other words, the world felt too big. Especially in the casino "gaming pit"; running around on the Strip; and probably most of all in the cockpit of the fighter jet. There are also times when the world seems vastly empty - this most of all in the motorcycle sequence driving from the Strip to the highway checkpoints, along those long empty desert roads. So long. So empty. I would get off from time to time to hunt for secret goodies... but no. Just empty.
Remember that the mod was made in 6 months, in 2 people's spare time though. True it doesn't have an insane amount of detail packed into every square inch, however the level of detail was adequate, and exactly what they were aiming for. (The reason they didn't add little goodies around the place with the motorbike is so the player can focus purely on the driving, rather than stopping every 5 seconds to look behind a rock.
There are definitely bigger and better mods/TCs out there for Duke, but those were literally years in the making, usually by a "full" team. I know that because of the name people tend to get into hype mode and over think things, and that the TC isn't everyone's cup of tea, but when you take it at face value, as what it was intended to be in its proper context (just a fun little thing made in a relatively short time), it's a pretty stellar job and it was a personal highlight of 2013 to play it (yeah I know, I need a life, haha).
- King of SOVL
-
#485 Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:13 AM
Anthony Fordham, on 26 June 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:
Because this mod says, maybe without even meaning to say it, that brilliant gameplay and fun level design isn't about the bells and whistles of a new engine. It's about pushing your existing engine to breaking point and beyond. 3Drealms should have stuck with Unreal, or Build3D, or whatever the hell it used to make that 2001 trailer. And released it in 1999. So Duke could party like it was, well... They should have let the two or three things that engine couldn't do for them go, and made a game like this mod.
I love this part. So true.
- el fundador
-
#486 Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:00 AM
Anthony, thanks for taking the time to write that. Reviewers don't normally turn around and write a separate review catering to a different audience in response to criticism... it's quite a stand-up gesture and it certainly goes far to "redeem" you, at least in my eyes! Your review here even sums up my personal views of the mod quite nicely, though that isn't the point... the point really being that it's an actual review of the content as opposed to using it as a stepping stone to cracking jokes at Duke's expense.
Much appreciated.
Much appreciated.
#487 Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:21 AM
Wait, I just don't get it.
Back then on AMC, I have been told, that no matter what kind of bullshit the reviewer or any other person says, is just right and indisputable. It is unquestionable, because it is an opinion, i.e. old Stef Meganck's review of my ancient themed SW map (author bashed the level for the lack of cars and I demanded the removal of the review). Here, the reviewer was attacked with "fuck" and "half-wit" and after a while it is just fine, *smileys*, because "he was redeemed" and almost forced to think the way he should be thinking. I find it quite funny after all and for me the community is now redeemed too
Back then on AMC, I have been told, that no matter what kind of bullshit the reviewer or any other person says, is just right and indisputable. It is unquestionable, because it is an opinion, i.e. old Stef Meganck's review of my ancient themed SW map (author bashed the level for the lack of cars and I demanded the removal of the review). Here, the reviewer was attacked with "fuck" and "half-wit" and after a while it is just fine, *smileys*, because "he was redeemed" and almost forced to think the way he should be thinking. I find it quite funny after all and for me the community is now redeemed too
This post has been edited by LAW: 26 June 2013 - 09:33 AM
#488 Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:22 AM
While it's nice you've come here to offer a rebuttal, your commentary still doesn't explain the baffling and entirely unwarranted vitriol against not only the mod, but essentially all modding communities that have the gall to dedicate their time and effort at producing content for games more than a year old. Is there something inherently wrong with the 2.5d engines that you speak so disparagingly of? You brazenly decry the original Duke Nukem 3D in the magazine review just as much as you do Duke Nukem Forever, providing gems such as "it's still butt ugly and BBS-basic" and writing everything off as being a "crappy-looking sprite," I see nothing to justify these declarations other than "it's old, so it must be bad", which is such an unfathomably ignorant mentality that I hope I don't have to explain it.
Speaking of ignorance, this review reeks of cluelessness. The simple mention of Human Head, which is hard to believe got past a single proofread, is a pretty telltale sign of this, but the additional mentions of things like "real polygons" (there are no polygonal models in the mod) and "curved sprites" (what?) really seal the deal. Even the big, bold blurb stating that the mod is based "entirely around key scenes from the 2001 trailer" with the body proclaiming "not the 1998 trailer or 2003 trailer" is flat out wrong. The mod's own description plainly tells you their reference material consisted of "mostly of the 1998 and 2001 Duke Nukem Forever trailers." That you went out of your way to acknowledge the 1998 trailer and the "2003 trailer" (Hint: This is not a trailer and was not released in 2003) feels like a sad attempt to demonstrate your supposed knowledge of the subject, and you still got it wrong. Oh, and just so you know, they did use the 2003 gameplay footage for reference as well.
Is this what passes for gaming journalism these days? Well, to use your own words, I guess you "don't give a shit!"
Speaking of ignorance, this review reeks of cluelessness. The simple mention of Human Head, which is hard to believe got past a single proofread, is a pretty telltale sign of this, but the additional mentions of things like "real polygons" (there are no polygonal models in the mod) and "curved sprites" (what?) really seal the deal. Even the big, bold blurb stating that the mod is based "entirely around key scenes from the 2001 trailer" with the body proclaiming "not the 1998 trailer or 2003 trailer" is flat out wrong. The mod's own description plainly tells you their reference material consisted of "mostly of the 1998 and 2001 Duke Nukem Forever trailers." That you went out of your way to acknowledge the 1998 trailer and the "2003 trailer" (Hint: This is not a trailer and was not released in 2003) feels like a sad attempt to demonstrate your supposed knowledge of the subject, and you still got it wrong. Oh, and just so you know, they did use the 2003 gameplay footage for reference as well.
Is this what passes for gaming journalism these days? Well, to use your own words, I guess you "don't give a shit!"
This post has been edited by RinyRed: 26 June 2013 - 09:35 AM
- King of SOVL
-
#489 Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:11 AM
I liked the original article. It's insanely sarcastic. I enjoy aggressive humor.
#490 Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:58 PM
RinyRed, on 26 June 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:
Is this what passes for gaming journalism these days? Well, to use your own words, I guess you "don't give a shit!"
To my knowledge writing reviews is not considered journalism. He didn't report anything. Ebert was not a journalist, but a critic.
Radar, on 26 June 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:
I liked the original article. It's insanely sarcastic. I enjoy aggressive humor.
The problem is if this sarcasm was warranted.
#491 Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:13 PM
I didn't like the original article, I don't mind sarcasm but it seemed to go overboard with the dissing of 2.5D graphics. But it's nice to see the author show up here and explain his stance, also nice to see an outsider perspective.
After all, we're used to stuff like 2-dimensional objects, lo-res sprites, vehicles that drive in endless loops and airplanes that keep hovering in front of the building instead of actually crashing into it, because we know how the build engine works. But to an outsider, some of that stuff might look really weird.
(to be honest though, the crashing airplane could have been better even with the limitations of the build engine. There's a trick to make the airplane "vanish": it wouldn't be actually gone but at least it would be invisible to the player.)
After all, we're used to stuff like 2-dimensional objects, lo-res sprites, vehicles that drive in endless loops and airplanes that keep hovering in front of the building instead of actually crashing into it, because we know how the build engine works. But to an outsider, some of that stuff might look really weird.
(to be honest though, the crashing airplane could have been better even with the limitations of the build engine. There's a trick to make the airplane "vanish": it wouldn't be actually gone but at least it would be invisible to the player.)
#492 Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:05 PM
Anthony, it's a very kind gesture from you to come here and write your respectful opinion about the whole DNF saga and the mod itself, thanks for that.
I don't really agree with your review on DNF2013 though, as I think the whole mod has done the "find your keycard to advance" thing in the proper way. Not mazey, like many other Duke or Doom maps, as you don't have to wander hours before you find the most useless place to get the card, but neither feel like "driving in a tube", as you have some freedom in the game. The mod - for me at least - felt like a rather cinematic adventure that is faithful to the original Duke game. I also enjoy the motocycle sequence a lot, as it felt much better paced than the stop and go wooden gameplay of RR Rides Again. The scale might have been big, but it's not neccessarily a bad thing, if you have played the great Last Reaction and Water Bases TC (if you want to play a single Duke mod, get that especially for its second episode), than you saw that oversizing can be an advantage at times, when it's paired with good, colourful design.
But you opinion on the TC is very respectful in this post, to each his own I guess.
Btw. your DNF description of "not terrible" is spot on, agree with that 100 %.
I don't really agree with your review on DNF2013 though, as I think the whole mod has done the "find your keycard to advance" thing in the proper way. Not mazey, like many other Duke or Doom maps, as you don't have to wander hours before you find the most useless place to get the card, but neither feel like "driving in a tube", as you have some freedom in the game. The mod - for me at least - felt like a rather cinematic adventure that is faithful to the original Duke game. I also enjoy the motocycle sequence a lot, as it felt much better paced than the stop and go wooden gameplay of RR Rides Again. The scale might have been big, but it's not neccessarily a bad thing, if you have played the great Last Reaction and Water Bases TC (if you want to play a single Duke mod, get that especially for its second episode), than you saw that oversizing can be an advantage at times, when it's paired with good, colourful design.
But you opinion on the TC is very respectful in this post, to each his own I guess.
Btw. your DNF description of "not terrible" is spot on, agree with that 100 %.
- Polymancer
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#493 Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:01 PM
Hard core Dukers are used to 2 dimensional objects and 2.5D graphics, but we have to realise that they all went out of fashion before the turn of the century and most casual players and the 'not we' are going to have a 'WTF' moment when the mod first starts up. That's not to dis anyone, but just how it is generally.
#494 Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:12 PM
I was going to post that a while ago. Only Hard dukers will take as normal cars that go all the way to the floor and trees and other objects that look at you all the time (among another million of peculiarities). This is why this kind of Duke content can only be judged properly by hard dukers. It´s not our fault the mod became "popular" outside our community.
This post has been edited by Gambini: 26 June 2013 - 04:13 PM
#495 Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:47 PM
Anthony Fordham, on 26 June 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:
As mentioned, I'm in contact with Terminx via email and do hope to put together a feature on eduke32 which should reference this community. I would like to say that I am in fact all about classic gaming - that's the main reason I'm responding here.
Then stick around for a while.
All the best.
- Honored Donor
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#496 Posted 26 June 2013 - 05:13 PM
Tea Monster, on 26 June 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:
Hard core Dukers are used to 2 dimensional objects and 2.5D graphics, but we have to realise that they all went out of fashion before the turn of the century and most casual players and the 'not we' are going to have a 'WTF' moment when the mod first starts up. That's not to dis anyone, but just how it is generally.
Even if they did go out of fashion, people should have the expectation that when they fire up Duke 3D, they're going to get something that looks like Duke 3D
#497 Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:04 PM
I think Doom is still popular and has its own community as well, and Doom fans are also familiar with 2.5D.
#498 Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:05 AM
Anthony Fordham, on 26 June 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:
Criticisms of basic level design aside, this is a really smart idea executed beautifully. With a little tweaking, it could have been a mind-blowing expansion pack to Duke3D in, say, 1997 or 1998. That's intended as a compliment, by the way. Classic games are forgiven much, since they're classics, but this could have wowed audiences when Build was cutting-edge.
That's exactly what the DNF2013 has always been meant to be : an expansion for Duke3D. The problem with your first review is that somehow you expected something not Duke3D.
Reading the first magazine review and then the other review you posted here is SO representative of modern game reviewers and people who only care about modern games in general. The 2nd post shows that you're totally able to enjoy older games for what they truely are and have fun with them, but in the magazine review you don't even try. You dismiss it to begin with because "LOL 2.5D GRAPHICS LOOK AT IT HA! HA!" and because it's full of -supposedly- "dated" game mechanics.
It's so representative of game journalism and gamers who only strive for technical advancement and for the newest shiny thing, first, and foremost.
That's something that has always been there though, even in the mid 90's, but it's what has ALWAYS been wrong with the video game industry; and as a consequence, what is also wrong with your job and your review. It's not even your fault if your magazine review sucks, it sucks because it's totally part of the whole thing. You were actually doing your job pretty well.
This post has been edited by MetHy: 27 June 2013 - 01:09 AM
- Let's go Brandon!
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#499 Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:37 AM
Doom's community is immensely larger than ours, for the record.
Also, my issue was never with the content of his review, but how it unnecessarily shed a negative light on our small community, potentially turning people away.
Also, my issue was never with the content of his review, but how it unnecessarily shed a negative light on our small community, potentially turning people away.
- Speaker of the Outhouse
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#500 Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:59 AM
Anthony Fordham, on 26 June 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:
DECLARATION OF BIAS
...Reviews are opinion pieces filtered through a standard framework for assessing a game.
...Reviews are opinion pieces filtered through a standard framework for assessing a game.
your review was targeting towards your audience. it's your "opinion" and you shouldn't feel it necessary to have to explain yourself. if people want to read reviews from a Duke3D perspective they should go to Duke3D sites like MSDN or CGS.
- Duke Plus Developer
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#501 Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:43 AM
I can see why some people were upset by the review, but the extreme negative reaction to it was unwarranted. I didn't detect any animosity in the review, and in fact it was obvious that he liked the mod overall. The review did give an inaccurate impression of the mod in some ways, but I wouldn't say that it was bad publicity.
#503 Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:20 AM
Awesome things are going on here lol, I'm so proud of you guys, your mod has got a personal review from a magazine editor here on the forum, I can't remember if this happened to any mod here before. The community stands up for Duke's honor really well! =P
This mod really rocks, definitely a must-play masterpiece. Maybe it could benefit from some more polishing, but it's pretty much playable as is. My bad I wasn't able to fix the motorbike issues in time
This mod really rocks, definitely a must-play masterpiece. Maybe it could benefit from some more polishing, but it's pretty much playable as is. My bad I wasn't able to fix the motorbike issues in time
- "Dick Nasty"
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#505 Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:06 AM
Gambini, on 02 July 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:
Never it´s too late!
Never thought I'd a agree with a guy responsible for DNF saying that!
- Honored Donor
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#506 Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:02 PM
I think he meant that craigfatman can make the ultimate kickass motorbike if he wants to come in at any time
#507 Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:12 PM
Yeah I promise forgiving him for the delay if he fixes the "flying" glitch.
if he fixes the "flying" glitch.
#508 Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:41 AM
i say make it so that the player can shoot while riding and add liztroops during the first part of the bike level
#509 Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:10 AM
First part of the bike level was supposed to be just driving. Adding something to shoot misses the point.
- Speaker of the Outhouse
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#510 Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:18 AM
Cathy, on 03 July 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:
First part of the bike level was supposed to be just driving. Adding something to shoot misses the point.
this
avoiding rock slides, road barriers, and jumping burning cars while allowing for a few unobstructed straight-aways for hauling ass would be the only necessary alterations to make it more interactive imo, but it's fine the way it is now
This post has been edited by Forge: 03 July 2013 - 07:19 AM
