[NightFright]

Not to forget the implicit sexual tensions between the two. Mulder/Scully style. I like the concept, Wieder. Should have been in the game, most definitely. But don't give up on it, it's meant to come true some day!

[PokeThePower]

NightFright, on 15 April 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

But don't give up on it, it's meant to come true some day!

Planting seeds.

[Devil Master]

Wieder, on 15 April 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

There is so much more depth to the Duke character and world that is possible without sacrificing the humor and the "Hail to the King" nature of Duke's world. Someday! Till then... hey look tits and poop front and center... and "bro" EDF soldiers and Duke falling on his ass from a 10 foot drop in a mine cart... multiple times... and one beer getting him drunk and and and...

Blame Duketurds for that.

Do you know who Duketurds (with a U) are? They are those Duke haters who happen to enjoy Duke3D, so they convinced themselves to be hardcore fans.
Ever read posts by people bashing every suggestion to have more character depth "because Duke is just a 1980s action hero parody"? People hating puzzles, scripted sequences and interactivity "because Duke doesn't do that", in fact, hating everything except shooting large amounts of cannon fodder enemies in wide areas? People hating Duke games with a plot "because Duke doesn't need a plot"? People who want the next Duke game to be "more like Duke3D, but better, by which I mean changed in a way that keeps it the same"? People who wanted boob physics to be the best part of DNF? Those are Duketurds.

[OpenMaw]

Devil Master, on 16 April 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Blame Duketurds for that.

Do you know who Duketurds (with a U) are? They are those Duke haters who happen to enjoy Duke3D, so they convinced themselves to be hardcore fans.
Ever read posts by people bashing every suggestion to have more character depth "because Duke is just a 1980s action hero parody"? People hating puzzles, scripted sequences and interactivity "because Duke doesn't do that", in fact, hating everything except shooting large amounts of cannon fodder enemies in wide areas? People hating Duke games with a plot "because Duke doesn't need a plot"? People who want the next Duke game to be "more like Duke3D, but better, by which I mean changed in a way that keeps it the same"? People who wanted boob physics to be the best part of DNF? Those are Duketurds.

I say blame the developers for having a lack of sense. You can't let yourself be influenced by what the audience wants, because that audience on a pie chart can be divided about 50 different ways. Having a clear understanding of the character, and pushing forward with it all the way is what was needed, and from the sounds of it. They had it, they canned it, and they replaced it with pure fan service stock. I can't blame the idiots in the community for that, because they weren't in charge of the games development. They weren't calling the shots creatively. That was those people who were involved at 3DR, Triptych, and Gearbox. They made the calls that gave us the game we now own.

And I don't think there is anything wrong with the notion of sticking with what worked in Duke3D, because to be quite honest a lot of what Duke 3D did worked very well. The idea is to expand on what worked. More character, more exploration, more interactivity, more insane weapons, more aliens. Take it up a notch and broaden the horizon.

[Gambini]

I like Wieder´s vision of Bombshell. I think it´s safe to say that DNF would have been a much better game if you were on Douchard´s charge.

[PokeThePower]

Gambini, on 16 April 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I like Wieder´s vision of Bombshell. I think it´s safe to say that DNF would have been a much better game if you were on Douchard´s charge.

Here's the tricky part of thinking that: Everything I described about Bombshell/Duke/Graves pretty much came from George. And I'm only giving the surface version of it as there is a lot more underlying to the relationship between the three that he was aiming for that makes me grin... but I've left out as they may still wind up in a future game. When it comes to that stuff George had a great vision.

I might have been able to get a PC game produced and ready for testing/polish on a more timely manner that lived up to the older visions... but beyond that I would have been way over my head at that time in my experience. Back then my forte was interactivity and level design and I was learning production via trial by fire.

Story was mostly George and when I shifted to a producer I attempted to work with him to get it locked down so we could execute on it. Pardon me while I at my younger self.

[Gambini]

It takes to be a very insecure person, then, to not appreciate your own good ideas over everybody else´s ones. If he had come with such great concepts (I believe he did at some point, look he made Duke3d) Why he ended up replacing it with just "random shit from other games"? Why he started his own game from scratch so many times, just to be like the rest? Part of being a great creative is to be confident of your stuff. You don´t need everybody agreeing on how good it is, as long as you believe it is. If not, you´re just another head on the bovine line waiting for the hammer to come down.

[Micky C]

Wieder, on 16 April 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

there is a lot more underlying to the relationship between the three that he was aiming for that makes me grin...

Turns out General Graves is Duke from the future. Then at the end of the game when Duke thinks he's in bed with Bombshell, he flicks on the light and finds out he's actually in bed with Graves

[Mr. Tibbs]

Maybe after being that closely involved with a project for 12 years, you can't see the forest for the trees? George has great talent, but I mean what happened with DNF is unprecedented. There's no other case study to compare it to outside of Yuriy Norshteyn's The Overcoat. http://en.wikipedia...._(animated_film)

[OpenMaw]

Micky C, on 16 April 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Turns out General Graves is Duke from the future. Then at the end of the game when Duke thinks he's in bed with Bombshell, he flicks on the light and finds out he's actually in bed with Graves

I had to down vote you for that, because that put such an intensely overt gay rape-sex scene in my head that I had a violent orgasm and destroyed my monitor.




That would have been one helluva a troll ending for DNF, though.

Mr. Tibbs, on 16 April 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Maybe after being that closely involved with a project for 12 years, you can't see the forest for the trees? George has great talent, but I mean what happened with DNF is unprecedented. There's no other case study to compare it to outside of Yuriy Norshteyn's The Overcoat. http://en.wikipedia...._(animated_film)

There's also a few bands who have taken a long time to release long awaited and highly anticipated albums.

[PokeThePower]

Gambini, on 16 April 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

It takes to be a very insecure person, then, to not appreciate your own good ideas over everybody else´s ones. If he had come with such great concepts (I believe he did at some point, look he made Duke3d) Why he ended up replacing it with just "random shit from other games"? Why he started his own game from scratch so many times, just to be like the rest? Part of being a great creative is to be confident of your stuff. You don´t need everybody agreeing on how good it is, as long as you believe it is. If not, you´re just another head on the bovine line waiting for the hammer to come down.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and try to describe something. I think George is at his best offering feedback, thoughts, and direction on something in development while someone else is responsible for day to day management of getting things done. I also think he is at his happiest (and thus most creative) in that situation.... though the desire to do it all can still be strong.

Whoever does that would be wise to take George's feedback seriously... but also has to be able to know when to say no and focus on the practical matters of getting things done and locked down without fear of being overridden.

Mr. Tibbs, on 16 April 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Maybe after being that closely involved with a project for 12 years, you can't see the forest for the trees? George has great talent, but I mean what happened with DNF is unprecedented. There's no other case study to compare it to outside of Yuriy Norshteyn's The Overcoat. http://en.wikipedia...._(animated_film)

8 years.

I know the forest and the trees very very well. Please note what I'm complimenting and what I'm acknowledging (here and other places) are the weaknesses.

Understand I'm very deliberate in my word choices and what I do talk about and what I let "slip by". I've stated I have no defense of George (or my own) production and management failures. I'm only talking directly to the fact that *I'm* not the one to credit with the things people expressed they liked about the Duke, Bombshell, Graves story dynamic... and that there was more there that I'm confident the community would appreciate... but leaving that for the possibility of some future game.

As I said earlier.. at the end of the day the other people got the game done and we didn't. I've instead helped get other games done since and will do more going forward.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Wieder, on 16 April 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

8 years.

I know the forest and the trees very very well. Please note what I'm complimenting and what I'm acknowledging (here and other places) are the weaknesses.

Understand I'm very deliberate in my word choices and what I do talk about and what I let "slip by". I've stated I have no defense of George (or my own) production and management failures. I'm only talking directly to the fact that *I'm* not the one to credit with the things people expressed they liked about the Duke, Bombshell, Graves story dynamic... and that there was more there that I'm confident the community would appreciate... but leaving that for the possibility of some future game.

As I said earlier.. at the end of the day the other people got the game done and we didn't. I've instead helped get other games done since and will do more going forward.

Sorry, Wieder. I was talking about George Broussard, not you. I should have specified that. Even then, I wouldn't want to presume anything about your experience or other team members on a project like DNF. Just generally speaking, I can't imagine spending that much time on a project. The goals/intentions for what you wanted it to be would change dramatically throughout the course of the project. Like 2007 DNF had a different set of challenges and pressures on it than 2000 DNF had.

Looking back, are you happy with your time at the studio? I imagine working there must've had some incredible highs and a few lows. I can't think of many other studios circa 1998-2001 that would've been cooler to work at.

[PokeThePower]

Mr. Tibbs, on 16 April 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Sorry, Wieder. I was talking about George Broussard, not you. I should have specified that.

Ahhh... hah. /forehead slap. Re-reading it now I see what you were intending.

I'm going to finish watching some Clone High mit zee gf... but will reply more tomorrow. Good questions.

[Bloodshot]

I know it's a stupid forum, but reading this then looking at GBX forums just pisses me off when I see "what should the next duke game have" and a bunch of people are like "F*ck off with the plot and characters, Duke doesn't need a story. He's a fictional character."

[OpenMaw]

Bloodshot, on 16 April 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

I know it's a stupid forum, but reading this then looking at GBX forums just pisses me off when I see "what should the next duke game have" and a bunch of people are like "F*ck off with the plot and characters, Duke doesn't need a story. He's a fictional character."

All you got to do is say "So is Batman. Boy, that Chris Nolan is a hack innit he?"

[Devil Master]

Bloodshot, on 16 April 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

I know it's a stupid forum, but reading this then looking at GBX forums just pisses me off when I see "what should the next duke game have" and a bunch of people are like "F*ck off with the plot and characters, Duke doesn't need a story. He's a fictional character."

I know. As I said, Duketurds.
Try to say that Duke3D is not that great and they'll jump at your throat saying that Duke3D is perfect. Try to say that you want a deeper story in the next game and they'll jump at your throat saying that you're an idiot for wanting that because Duke3D didn't have it.

[Micky C]

Bloodshot, on 16 April 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

I know it's a stupid forum, but reading this then looking at GBX forums just pisses me off when I see "what should the next duke game have" and a bunch of people are like "F*ck off with the plot and characters, Duke doesn't need a story. He's a fictional character."

The thing is, the only real experience they had of story in a Duke game was DNF.... and if that's the case we can DEFINITELY go without it. They probably meant don't have Duke wander around without a gun for two hours and instead throw Duke right into the action like Duke 2 and Duke 3D. But I'm sure if there's a good story it could work very well, as long as it doesn't distract from the action too long (and it should be skippable!)

[PokeThePower]

Mr. Tibbs, on 16 April 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Just generally speaking, I can't imagine spending that much time on a project. The goals/intentions for what you wanted it to be would change dramatically throughout the course of the project. Like 2007 DNF had a different set of challenges and pressures on it than 2000 DNF had.

The changes weren't as dramatic in real time as they look in hindsight. It's kind of like how when people study history such as the fall of the Roman Empire it seems so dramatic... but in truth it took many generations and most people started and ended their lives with things looking more or less the same. It is only the compression of history that makes it look turbulent.

That doesn't mean there wasn't turbulence... and once some of us "crossed the Rubicon" in 2006... things did shift into an entirely different gear. However even the introduction of Brian Hook wasn't as dramatic a shift as it's been painted publically. Lots of railroad tracks were put down leading right up to that moment that weren't easily perceived by many team members.

Mr. Tibbs, on 16 April 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Looking back, are you happy with your time at the studio? I imagine working there must've had some incredible highs and a few lows. I can't think of many other studios circa 1998-2001 that would've been cooler to work at.

During my time there I personally got to:

• Make some of my dearest friends in the industry (both in and out of 3DR).
  
• Release the Duke 3D source code.
  
• Release the Shadow Warrior source code.
  
• Watch Max Payne develop and provide feedback.
  
• Watch Prey develop and provide feedback.
  
• Learn more about programming than my time at college.
  
• Develop and implement interactivity that still hasn't been matched (even by DNF, haha).
  
• Explore a variety of level and game design concepts that most games can't even try.
  
• Be a part of history, however notorious.
  
• Be a public face to a community I came from and cared about... for something I actually believed in... not because I was being paid to.
  
• Almost died in a car wreck and saw genuine support from the company, bosses, co-workers, industry friends, and community.
  
• Get into and avoid trouble in ways we won't go into here.
  
• Get the fodder for the Chair Story.
  
• Learn to be a leader in a way that helped provide a channel for the transition to Gearbox for 3DR refugees.
  
• Visit Remedy, see Alan Wake early in development, and given an opening to possibly work on it (but didn't feel comfortable going to Finland).
  
• Stage a coup (sorta kinda not really).

I could go on and on... but I think you get the point.

[blackharted3]

Wieder, on 16 April 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Here's the tricky part of thinking that: Everything I described about Bombshell/Duke/Graves pretty much came from George. And I'm only giving the surface version of it as there is a lot more underlying to the relationship between the three that he was aiming for that makes me grin... but I've left out as they may still wind up in a future game. When it comes to that stuff George had a great vision.

I'm sure he did. Wieder I just read your description Bombshell, or rather what you knew of it, that just me feel even more gutted she wasn't in it. What you said sounds much more entertaining that what we ended up with. It also made in sound like we were gonna get more story/character interaction than we got. That all sounded loads better than the final product.

I mean it was like they skipped or cut out huge chucks of the story, and just replaced it with someone saying, "you missed a lot." Hearing all these abandoned ideas, and removed gameplay concepts that you mention in your previous posts, makes me really wish they were included. I mean there are times were I almost can let go of the fact that DNF wasn't very good, and say to myself "well I feel honored that at least I got to play it." and then suddenly remember some awesome sounding feature that was removed, and think damn it!

I also remember you talking about a flamethrower or something, and that sounded mega cool. I really want to know why such awesome things were removed. Sorry for going so far of topic for so long, but I posted this late.

[OpenMaw]

I think this topic changed gears about two pages back anyway. Lol.

Maybe the 'mids should split this thread off since some of us feel like chatting about what could have been. Wieder has certainly given us quite a few interesting tid bits for us to talk about further.

[LkMax]

Duel, on 17 April 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

I'm sure he did. Wieder I just read your description Bombshell, or rather what you knew of it, that just me feel even more gutted she wasn't in it.(...)

I'm actually glad she wasn't on the DNF we've got. I can imagine 2011 bombshell being just another one that wants to suck Duke's d*ck while acting stupid and telling duke how her boobies are big and "comfortable". And that's the image that bombshell would have to carry and it would be hard to "fix". Imagine if Forever was the first Duke game: no one would care about him.

[PokeThePower]

Duel, on 17 April 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

That all sounded loads better than the final product.

I also remember you talking about a flamethrower or something, and that sounded mega cool. I really want to know why such awesome things were removed.

At the end of the day however cool our intention and progress was we didn't get it done and someone else did... for better and worse. The best I can offer is to infuse the collective Duke consciousness with the possibilities and keep some of the dreams alive for future better managed Duke projects. I may disagree and cry about choices made... but they stuck with it to the end and I didn't and I give them big credit for that in and of itself.

Commando Nukem, on 17 April 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

I think this topic changed gears about two pages back anyway. Lol.

Maybe the 'mids should split this thread off since some of us feel like chatting about what could have been. Wieder has certainly given us quite a few interesting tid bits for us to talk about further.

Doh, yeah. I've said more than enough for now so a new thread wouldn't yield much of interest. I really should put my energy into my Duke 3D ideas if I want to make a real difference in the Duke world these days. Looking forward to upcoming life changes that will alter my daily schedule and make that more viable. Less whinging/stalling and more putting my skill where my mouth is.

[Kathy]

Wieder, on 18 April 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

At the end of the day however cool our intention and progress was we didn't get it done and someone else did... for better and worse.

Pretty much. Realisation is almost everything.

[Devil Master]

LkMax, on 17 April 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

I'm actually glad she wasn't on the DNF we've got. I can imagine 2011 bombshell being just another one that wants to suck Duke's d*ck while acting stupid and telling duke how her boobies are big and "comfortable".

Instead, imagine if she had exactly the same lines as Dylan. It would've been hilarious!

[OpenMaw]

Devil Master, on 18 April 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Instead, imagine if she had exactly the same lines as Dylan. It would've been hilarious!

Wouldn't be surprised if that was actually the case. There is one shot of the "current" bombshell in the DNF artbook as an in-game asset. Aside from a different head and female-boob body army she basically looks like femme Dylan.

[Metalwolf]

Devil Master, on 16 April 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Blame Duketurds for that.

Do you know who Duketurds (with a U) are? They are those Duke haters who happen to enjoy Duke3D, so they convinced themselves to be hardcore fans.
Ever read posts by people bashing every suggestion to have more character depth "because Duke is just a 1980s action hero parody"? People hating puzzles, scripted sequences and interactivity "because Duke doesn't do that", in fact, hating everything except shooting large amounts of cannon fodder enemies in wide areas? People hating Duke games with a plot "because Duke doesn't need a plot"? People who want the next Duke game to be "more like Duke3D, but better, by which I mean changed in a way that keeps it the same"? People who wanted boob physics to be the best part of DNF? Those are Duketurds.

That was my issue with them as well. I have never learned to hate the word 'parody' before I came to Gearbox forums. "Duke is a action hero parody" -Duketurds. "Duke's (DNF) world is a funhouse mirror!" Randy Pitchford. To me, 'parody' is just a lame excuse to fling all sorts of ridiculous poo into a game and hope it sticks. I hated the way DNF's people, places and things revolved around Duke like he was the singularity of some bastard black hole, sucking so hard that not even light could escape.

Also, I had posted various story ideas throughout my posting history on there about really showing the all out horror that an alien invasion could produce, like watching police officers and military screaming and writhing in pain as they were slowly transformed into pigcops, going through blackened areas of the city and passing by crying or dead civilians, that sort of thing. Some people did agree with me, but the Duketurds often would say, "Oh but that's too dark for a Duke game. Duke is supposed to be funny." I thought "Really!?" Do Duketurds really think that in a real alien invasion like that it would be fun and games, and that you wouldn't see some serious messed up stuff? Or that the aftermath of it all would just evaporate into thin air once Duke strides off into the sunset?

I'll tell you what would happen. A Duketurd would be hiding under his/her bed crapping pants and hoping the aliens would be oh-so-nice and not nuke their house, and that magically they'd go away but oh-no-they-won't because this is real. Then as they crawl out from under their mattress bomb shelter and see the open front door, who do they meet but a big ugly pigcop and his partner standing in the foyer! Oh but these aren't the goofy cartoonish DN3D pigcops of yesteryear or the pigapes of DNF. These guys are actually scary and packing full police armor and auto shotties! Now they are staring at the Duketurd in a not-so-nice manner, a lovely 'We'll kill you" for the boys or a "We'll have fun with you" for the girls. The Duketurd gets an eyefull of razor-sharp tusks and red eyes, short ugly snouts and bulging muscles, and the heady funk of men-turned-pigs sweating in their armor. Duketurd for once shows common sense and runs like the LooneyToons Roadrunner, knowing that if they stick around, there would be much unpleasantness.

Out the door and through the woods, over the hills we go! Oh dear, but now we got a problem. There are aliens afoot, doing dastardly alien stuff! These bad beings aren't the ones the Duketurd knows. These are the oh-my-gosh scary kind! But the brave Duketurd (and oh are they brave) forms a cunning plan. And it's a good one, because Duketurd thought it up. Duketurd will save the world, and be like Duke! Duketurd spins around to sprint away and and... smacks into the pigcops they forgot about. Silly Duketurd. These guys don't stay in one little sector you know, or get stuck on some hidden unaligned vector like the game ones do! Run little Duketurd, because now the aliens are looking at you too!*

*Sorry, Duketurds just irritate me that much. I can't help it. They are the bane of Dukedom.

Boob physics? Yeah they wanted that too. I can't tell you how many times some male Duketurd wanted to opine about the endless possibilities of 'jiggle physics." Boobies, boobies and more boobies, and the hopes of a few that DNF could be an Adults Only game. Just so they could stare at pixelated tits and vaginas and Duke doing sex acts. Even some of the female posters got into defending it too, going into odd crap posts about them having a bunch of sex partners and saying how 'free' they were with their sexuality, and that because of this, there should be boobies boobies and boobies for the men to oggle at. All stripes of Dukey diarrhea, and the women get the most purile about it because they want to show how 'modern women' they are.

[OpenMaw]

The character of Duke has always been a funny character. That's the best balance. Make the world straight, mostly straight at least (A few chuckle references is good I think.) But Duke is the guy who enters the world with wit, charm, charisma, and one-liners. Duke changes the paradigm.

There's was something else that I noticed in the art book, when they were talking about the various stages of the pig cops. They actually had them being really nasty and over-the-top intense, but apparently they felt it was "too much" and pulled them back. Frankly, I think that was a mistake.

[Bloodshot]

Duke should be a funny character, but he also shouldn't just spit out one liners and references in almost every piece of dialogue he gets. He should be able to actually converse with characters in the game.

That being said, it might be funny to have a little joke character (that isn't duke) that can literally only respond to people by saying one-liners and 80s movie references.

[Micky C]

Commando Nukem, on 18 April 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

The character of Duke has always been a funny character. That's the best balance. Make the world straight, mostly straight at least (A few chuckle references is good I think.) But Duke is the guy who enters the world with wit, charm, charisma, and one-liners. Duke changes the paradigm.

There's was something else that I noticed in the art book, when they were talking about the various stages of the pig cops. They actually had them being really nasty and over-the-top intense, but apparently they felt it was "too much" and pulled them back. Frankly, I think that was a mistake.

Let's not get starting again on mistakes in DNF *cough daytime vegas* *cough pretty much everything* but can you post a pick of that bombshell image? Besides the 1998 trailer I only recall seeing her as concept art.

Btw, I wonder how old the average Duketurd is at the Gearbox forums. For them to be that desperate to have sex in a game, they're either 12, or have no social life, or both.

[OpenMaw]

Bloodshot, on 18 April 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

Duke should be a funny character, but he also shouldn't just spit out one liners and references in almost every piece of dialogue he gets. He should be able to actually converse with characters in the game.

That being said, it might be funny to have a little joke character (that isn't duke) that can literally only respond to people by saying one-liners and 80s movie references.

Granted. The problem that befalls Duke is he becomes very risky to write for when he moves away from what his schtick has always been. He is the guy constantly making references and one liners. Even in the really well written games like Zero Hour. Though there he does get some pretty good dialogue. The opening scene, is pretty damn good.

Micky C, on 18 April 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Let's not get starting again on mistakes in DNF *cough daytime vegas* *cough pretty much everything* but can you post a pick of that bombshell image? Besides the 1998 trailer I only recall seeing her as concept art.

Btw, I wonder how old the average Duketurd is at the Gearbox forums. For them to be that desperate to have sex in a game, they're either 12, or have no social life, or both.

Actually I had started to list off my issues again. The Vegas lighting situation chiefly among my complaints. (Seriously, anyone who has been to Vegas knows that the city is absolutely DULL on the eyes during the day. The night time is where it's at.) Here's the page in question:





Scanned from my own copy.