[Micky C]

Yep, definitely haven't seen that before. Thanks. I kind of expected a bit more distictiveness and customisation on her uniform or whatever. But then what am I saying? This is DNF! Where all the guys consist of precisely 3 different heads placed on different bodies.
What's up with that? This isn't 1995 where you need to cut down on variety to save memory or storage space. Did they think we wouldn't notice? That one can only be chalked down to laziness.

[Devil Master]

Metalwolf, that really made me laugh. I tried to give you +1 rep, but it looks like I can't modify anyone's reputation yet.

Micky C, it's not just the Gearbox forum. Shit like that was also all over the 3DRealms forum, a decade or so ago. Just ask Damien_Azreal about all the shit he had to delete. Why do you think DNF has a "Capture the Babe" multiplayer mode, where he has to spank the babe he is carrying?
Duketurds in the 3DRealms forum also wanted Doctor Proton to be basically Doctor Evil with another name, down to touching his lips with his pinky and cracking "one million dollars" jokes. We've been VERY lucky that this time, Triptych did NOT listen to them.

P.S.
Now that Commando Nukem posted those pictures, a question for Wieder arises: was that Bombshell model ever used in game?

[Kathy]

Who's a duketard you're talking about? Several dozen fans posted on 3drealms forums before 2009 and half of them/us continues to post here. Aren't we duketards?

[Micky C]

I'd like to think that most of us are smart enough and mature enough to not believe that half the point of playing a Duke game is to see naked chicks and sex acts. I mean get a girlfriend already, or at least go watch some actual porn.

Thinking back, I don't remember anyone here saying "aww yeah the strippers and stuff were awesome!" in fact the comments tended to come across as things like "the stripper dance at the end of the level was pretty awkward".
Although now that you mention it, I remember being pretty pissed off at the time that you couldn't go up to a stripper and go "shake it baby" but that was more because this particular interactivity was less sophisticated than Duke 3D was. (Apparently you could do something like that at a certain point, but I'm sure it's nothing special).

[Devil Master]

Cathy, on 19 April 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Who's a duketard you're talking about? Several dozen fans posted on 3drealms forums before 2009 and half of them/us continues to post here. Aren't we duketards?

Duketard != Duketurd. Here are some of the Duketurds I'm talking about.
http://forums.gearbo...66&postcount=16
http://forums.gearbo...831#post2537831
http://forums.gearbo...687&postcount=1
http://forums.gearbo...25&postcount=11
The last link in particular is from a part of a thread where someone explains exactly why in his opinion Duke should do a lot of drugs in the next game. Read it and facepalm.

[Metalwolf]

Devil Master, on 19 April 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

Metalwolf, that really made me laugh. I tried to give you +1 rep, but it looks like I can't modify anyone's reputation yet.

Ah thanks I wrote that at about 12-1 in the morning, when I was quite in the most peckish of moods.

To Cathy, Duketards are fans that are enthusiastic about Duke, sometimes to the point of constantly talking about Duke. This isn't necessarily a bad thing.
What we are talking about are Duketurds, the the malignant strain of Duke fans that want to make the Duke games little more then interactive pornos, think it's blasphemy to have Duke not be this one-note guy, and for all the world's women to want Duke, nothing but Duke, so help me God.

If the Duke games simply were Duke running around shouting nothing but "Boobies, boobies, boobies" like some dude with Tourette's, they would think it was high art and 'The best game evah!"

Then there was the pages long snake about "Will Duke Nukem Forever get an AO rating?" Many wise people saying it would be a bad idea, but the Duketurds... well you know what they were thinking.

[PokeThePower]

Devil Master, on 19 April 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

Now that Commando Nukem posted those pictures, a question for Wieder arises: was that Bombshell model ever used in game?

That model is from after my time. There was never a fixed Bombshell model/design/vision visually. She was never not meant to be beautiful and strong any less than Duke has always meant to be charismatic and strong. There is nothing wrong with being beautiful/sexy... only with leaving that as the only redeeming value of a character/person but trying to pass them off as more.

There is nothing wrong with Capture the Babe and playful spanks. It's when that shifts from "wink wink nudge nudge" background aspects and become front and center representations of the universe as a whole that the full potential of the character and world are missed.

But that's the thing... it takes genuine writing ability and wit that can't be faked.... to pull off a character like Duke where he *does* live in a world where all women "want" him on some level... but just like real life there is a nuance to this that is easily lost and distorted to the point of becoming uncomfortable for anyone with some degree of self awareness. You can be "naughty" without being "slobbery".

[Metalwolf]

Wieder, on 19 April 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

But that's the thing... it takes genuine writing ability and wit that can't be faked.... to pull off a character like Duke where he *does* live in a world where all women "want" him on some level... but just like real life there is a nuance to this that is easily lost and distorted to the point of becoming uncomfortable for anyone with some degree of self awareness. ............

I would say that the difficulty of doing that effectively, is to the degree I would say it being just about damn near impossible. You are right that it would become uncomfortable, because these women would have no choice but to like him. To me, that starts going into Twilight Zone territory.

The only way I could see where he's plausibly liked by a bunch of women would be if he was world renowned. Not to the degree that people's lives revolved around him, but famous enough where he has a pretty hefty fandom. However, there would still be a bigger bunch of women who wouldn't find him attractive, wouldn't care for his braggart attitude, and just generally wouldn't be interesting. It's the only way I could see him having legions of fan girls, but not to the point of where it gets massively creepy.

"All women wanting Duke" idea was another one of the many mistakes of DNF. Many people didn't care for the way the whole world just basically worshiped at Duke's feet. It was like they had no lives, that their only existence was Duke, Duke, Duke. This made them feel plastic, like Duke was some sort of demigod and that he was their only reason to exist. It made it hard to care for the people you helped, since they didn't feel like 'real' people.

Thus having said this, I would say that in any future Duke game, the devs shouldn't make him the center of the universe. Make him a big honking hero sure, but please don't make him Cthulhu.

[Mikko]

Commando Nukem, on 19 April 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

Lol, the 3d model looks like one of the Holsom sisters in an armor. Maybe that's how the twins were born, out of a discarded female character.

[Devil Master]

Mikko_Sandt, on 19 April 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

Lol, the 3d model looks like one of the Holsom sisters in an armor. Maybe that's how the twins were born, out of a discarded female character.

Unlikely. The leaked portfolio DNF content includes renders of a female character with a different hairstyle, made around 2006 and called a Holsom twin.
Based on what Wieder said (that when he worked on the game, placeholder models were used where Bombshell was supposed to be) it's more likely that the render in the BOS guide is a placeholder model too (specifically, a slightly modified Holsom twin head and an armored female body).

[Psyrgery]

Meh, not only Bombshell concept was amazing, but the EDF armours pre-Gearbox were way cooler rather than that SWAT-armor like bullshit.

Seriously, wtf.

NInja Edit: I wanted to thank Wieder for everything he has let us know, without him there would be a lot of things we may not know... Thanks dude!

I also would like to ask him some questions concerning the 2006 build (I don't know if Jace Hall show's footage was 2006 or 2008),

how destructable were the maps? In Jace Hall footage Jace Hall made a large pipe collapse with Devastator rockets explosions Link here

how advanced was the AI? In Jace Hall footage a Pigcop hides behind a crate and tosses a pipebomb at Duke Link here

You know how WONDERFUL the AI is in the final product: DURRRR LET'S CHARGE FORWARD/STAY STATIONARY SHOOTING BLINDLESSLY

[Bloodshot]

Never noticed before, but the way the lighting affects objects and the viewmodels in that build seems to look better then the final game.

Also that ripper model looks a lot cooler.

[Devil Master]

Bloodshot, on 20 April 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Never noticed before, but the way the lighting affects objects and the viewmodels in that build seems to look better then the final game.

Also that ripper model looks a lot cooler.

I remember a quote from George in 2008 / early 2009 saying that the requirements for DNF were going to be "steep, and unless you have a quad-core you're not going to be able to play the game properly". Then it came out and it was pretty light. If I had to make a guess, I'd say that George realized that it would not run smoothly on consoles with those models and lighting, so he had them downgraded.

[LkMax]

Was George planning on doing a port to consoles on release day anyway? They were having trouble to release just one version (PC), I think a console port was only considered when Gearbox picked it up (and it was done by other people).

[Kathy]

360 version was supposed to be done internally at 3DR. XBLA port of Duke3d was a preparation. Also George confirmed that 2 weapon limit was implemented because of the consoles and it was 3DR's decision.

[LkMax]

Cathy, on 21 April 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

360 version was supposed to be done internally at 3DR. XBLA port of Duke3d was a preparation. Also George confirmed that 2 weapon limit was implemented because of the consoles and it was 3DR's decision.

Bastard never heard of Goldeneye, Perfect Dark or even past console Duke games (hah).
I must have missed it. Source?

[Kathy]

Quote

There are only so many buttons. Add to that, that consoles represent 70% of game sales today, and that the two weapon scheme has worked and been STD since halo in 2001 and it's really not an issue.

http://www.shacknews...anchor_26031903

[Bloodshot]

Quote

How much driving is in the full game?

Quote

Not a lot. In there just to break things up a little. Probably 5-7% of game or something.

Haha oh god

[OpenMaw]

Well, they did cut out huge chapters of the game. The entire "father ship" sequence, and a few of the segments that later became Doctor Who Cloned me, would have made the game much longer, and thusly not had nearly as much driving in it.

[blackharted3]

I know you've posted the leaked documents before, but I didn't know anything about a "father ship" sequence, call me ignorant

[Player Lin]

Commando Nukem, on 21 April 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Well, they did cut out huge chapters of the game. The entire "father ship" sequence, and a few of the segments that later became Doctor Who Cloned me, would have made the game much longer, and thusly not had nearly as much driving in it.

If my memory didn't go wrong, some DN3D-like levels also cut out...

The shitty detailed and lighting of E1L1 remake for MP in DNF just broke my heart so hard... x_x

[Devil Master]

Psyrgery, on 20 April 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

how advanced was the AI? In Jace Hall footage a Pigcop hides behind a crate and tosses a pipebomb at Duke Link here

That was probably scripted (or it's a simple repetitive routine like the gunners in Quake 2 that ducked to dodge rockets). I've played The Shrunk Machine Part 2 right now and there's a pigcop that fires rockets at you and hides behind a crate when you shoot him.

[PokeThePower]

LkMax, on 20 April 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Was George planning on doing a port to consoles on release day anyway? They were having trouble to release just one version (PC), I think a console port was only considered when Gearbox picked it up (and it was done by other people).

As Cathy mentioned it was a goal of George's to get it on the console (360 at least). This was in progress on design considerations for a bit when I was still there.

Psyrgery, on 20 April 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

how destructable were the maps? In Jace Hall footage Jace Hall made a large pipe collapse with Devastator rockets explosions Link here

Depends on the type of geometry. "Actors" (couch cushions, pots, rats, microwaves, computers, etc) pretty much all had some level of destruction unless you looked at it and it didn't make sense. Stuff like the pipe you pointed to was setup by mappers. But the mappers liked destruction so there was a lot of it. So things like walls/floors/ceilings weren't fundamentally different from other normal games technically (aka no geomod) but it was a priority just like it was in Duke 3D compared to Doom/Hexen which could have also had destructable world geo, but didn't focus on it.

Psyrgery, on 20 April 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

how advanced was the AI? In Jace Hall footage a Pigcop hides behind a crate and tosses a pipebomb at Duke Link here

You know how WONDERFUL the AI is in the final product: DURRRR LET'S CHARGE FORWARD/STAY STATIONARY SHOOTING BLINDLESSLY

Depended on the day. There were lots of cool things at certain times... buuuut.... you know. Changes.

Tossing the pipebomb back is a pretty simple thing to do. "Advanced" is an ineffective word to apply to AI quality as most people don't actually want advanced AI (I understood what you meant though). They want AI that behaves in ways that make sense and can be easily recognized/understood. You don't want an AI that beats you and you don't know why. They might make a surprising move, but if they beat you it leaves you understanding why and what you could have done to counter it. Next time, you counter it and feel awesome.

Running straight at you or stationary AI aren't inherently bad in and of themselves. It's a matter of whether that fits expectations. Some of the best and most effective AI in history were actually pretty dumb, but they were extremely satisfying to defeat. Even if they are scripted. It's really down to presentation and polish. You'd be surprised how much of a difference the exact same AI but new animations, effects, and sounds can make.

In fact I'd almost go so far as to say those might be more important than any of the actual "intelligence" under the hood.

Metalwolf, on 19 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

I would say that the difficulty of doing that effectively, is to the degree I would say it being just about damn near impossible. You are right that it would become uncomfortable, because these women would have no choice but to like him. To me, that starts going into Twilight Zone territory.

Notice I said something very specific... "wants him on *some* level", not automatically and blindly worship and lust after. Someone might *hate* him, but at the end of the day, at least in my opinion, everyone recognizes he's the one who saved their asses and got in there and took care of stuff that nobody else could or would... good bad and ugly.

[trustn0!]

I gotta ask Wieder, a bit unrelated though, but how hard or restricting is it to develop systems for the 360 as opposed to the free range that PC architecture would have otherwise given?

One of the things that i found good about DNF, was the fact that it had many proper reflective surfaces.
The bathroom mirror in the beginning being the most prominent example.
Would just like to hear your experience working on Halo 4, a game that didn't have to worry itself about multiplat configurations and instead focusing on a fixed architecture.

[PokeThePower]

trustn0!, on 25 April 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

I gotta ask Wieder, a bit unrelated though, but how hard or restricting is it to develop systems for the 360 as opposed to the free range that PC architecture would have otherwise given?

Totally different world. And if you don't start your engine and assets off with the hardware limitations in mind you are basically setting yourself up for nightmares.

trustn0!, on 25 April 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

Would just like to hear your experience working on Halo 4, a game that didn't have to worry itself about multiple configurations and instead focusing on a fixed architecture.

I definitely can't get into Halo 4 stuff. I know the engineers would say there is a huge difference between single platform vs multi of course. However from the designer side of the coin it's not as huge of a gap because most multi-platform engines have unified tool sets. My day to day life on Halo 4 vs MW2 wasn't fundamentally different, even though the tool sets are totally different.

Kinda like how once you know how to program in one language you more or less can program in any language once you learn the syntax and expectations. Same goes for using game engine tools.

[blackharted3]

Dude if you ever want to transfer your skills and knowledge, look no further.

[Tea Monster]

I'd just like to say thank you for sharing so much with us about working at 3DR at that time. It's nice to get an insight into what it was like at the time.

I know you can't say too much due to professional confidences, but thank you for trying to bring us on board as much as you have.

It is much appreciated.

[Kathy]

Yeah, that inside knowledge is invaluable for those who followed DNF for so long. It seems the game at one point really was what we had imagined.

And I adore that analogies.

[pjVgt]

Metalwolf, on 19 April 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

To Cathy, Duketards are fans that are enthusiastic about Duke, sometimes to the point of constantly talking about Duke. This isn't necessarily a bad thing.
What we are talking about are Duketurds, the the malignant strain of Duke fans that want to make the Duke games little more then interactive pornos, think it's blasphemy to have Duke not be this one-note guy, and for all the world's women to want Duke, nothing but Duke, so help me God.

I invented this term and I am starting slowly to hate it. C'mon two years have passed there is just no point to blame anyone. I seriously hope GBX will just do whatever they want regarding the DN franchise regardless what fans or true fans write on silly forums.

[Kathy]

pjVgt, on 26 April 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

I seriously hope GBX will just do whatever they want regarding the DN franchise regardless what fans or true fans write on silly forums.

Right, because since 1997 it wasn't the community on those silly forums that influenced the IP GBX proudly acquired.