[Micky C]

I made a building with lots and lots of windows. Each of the SEs is a polymer light, so I'm waiting for ROR to be polymer compatible so I can see what it looks like.



It's really corrupt though, with like 40+ errors :S

[HellFire]

Is there a way to select sectors by clicking them, so i can choose which ones i want to make ROR in a certain area? There's some cases where selecting it with altgr isnt sufficient, for example, i was trying to apply transparent water to E1L3, in the submarine part, ok so first i connected the underwater part with inside the submarine, now how im supposed to connect the underwater sector with the outside sector if i cant select it (if i use alt gr, the submarine will be selected too). Also, i noticed you can't move TROR sectors with altgr but you can with rshift, is that a limitation or just a bug? I read that the ypanning was removed, was that needed? i mean you even created a "new" map format... Also, will the old ROR be removed? If you do so remember to do something about the '3' hotkey in mapster. And how can i toggle that side view mode?

[Mike Norvak]

Bridge testing...

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 
• 

[Tea Monster]

Don't mean to be a party pooper, but it was said that Polymer has to do extra passes to accomplish this. Isn't 'extra passes' going to impact an already kinda miserly frame rate once it gets Polymerised?

[Nukester10]

Jhect, on 17 May 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

Who is the ignorant idiot that thumbs down a man with a simple question? Nukesters post couldn't piss off a normal human being.

Thanks, Jhect

You know,this is precisely a perfect example of why the rating system is such a big failure.

Now here Iam a member of D4 asking a couple of simple questions that hopefully,HelixHorned will answer.
But in the mix of all this,what you end up getting are a few D-Bags on here or perhaps,"Asskissers" would be a better
way to word it.That throw everything constructive out the window by throwing a stupid monkey wrench in the
mix, everytime somebody asks a question that's worth asking.Or should I say,maybe it depends on WHO is
doing the asking really.Now ultimately,do I believe in the end that this type of childish negativity can effect on how
another member is going to to view this member's post(s) who receive the downvotes ?

Absolutely,1000 and 10% percent without a doubt!

And you know what,I think that's a very sad reality when you really think about what most of us are trying to
do on here.Ask each other questions that relate to the Forum your in and that's it!
At least that's what I was told how it's supposed to work.

Is this a "Constructive Outlet" to help and converse with one another or simply a "Favoritism Contest"?

Hmmmmmmm?...................Sometimes I wonder.

Now I know in the end all of this probable worthless typing is going to amount to,Mr BlackCat
throwing in some type of philosophical mumbo jumbo and/or possibly others
defending this nasty rating system we have on here and how great and wonderful it is.

But is it really?

Or is it just a "Popularity Contest" in the end?

Edit:You know what though,you really want to have a better voting system like everybody's been talking about lately?
I agree with others on this as well,"Whomever casts a "Downvote",They're NAME will also be shown as well.
F n A! Now that's the way to go! After that they'll have to explain "Why" they cast that stone at another member.

And based upon the answer the Admin gets,they could have a counsel with other leading members to decide whether or not to suspend this member who did the downvoting,by not allowing them to vote at all for at least 30 days.

Now The Downvoter Who Judged A Member Shall Be Judged Themselves!

Sounds like justice to me.

[MusicallyInspired]

Stop taking it so seriously.

[Danukem]

@Nukester10; There are already two threads in the Website Feedback forum debating the reputation system. Please do not shit all over a great thread like this one by ranting about it. I don't know who voted down your post. It wasn't nice, and they shouldn't have done it (although what SwissCM said about it is not entirely without merit). But let's not make the situation worse by having this debate here.

[Hank]

Micky C, on 17 May 2011 - 05:14 AM, said:

I made a building with lots and lots of windows. Each of the SEs is a polymer light, so I'm waiting for ROR to be polymer compatible so I can see what it looks like.
.... image cut ...
It's really corrupt though, with like 40+ errors :S

I'm impressed. Would there be a remote possibility to make a quick video, on the how to? I'm new with Mapster32, and do not see how you did this. And I think all other newbies might benefit.

[Helixhorned]

Gambini, on 16 May 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:

I´ve been playing with this new feature. There´s something i dont understand yet: How I can work on upper sectors and lower sectors separately? Not sure if that´s possible. But if not, seems pretty tricky to get decent structures because you never know when you´re editing the upper or the lower sector, examples: adding sprites in 2d mode, joining sectors, selecting first wall. Basically any 2d operation that requires to aim the cursor into one bidirectional coordenate.

There are two kinds of sector-over-sector to distinguish here. First, there are "extended sectors" as documented: those have a portal to sectors with the same outer bounding area. Editing extended sectors stacked on each other is always mutually exclusive: there's only one such level of sectors active at any time. Then there's the other type, namely plain old SOS that has always been possible. This is the kind that gets created when you side-add sectors to extended ones; the new ones are never extended themselves, but of the plain type and hence will overlap in the overhead view, unless you also gray them out with the Ctrl-R feature.

DanM, on 16 May 2011 - 07:29 PM, said:

well in 3d mode 'i toggles the ROR layers on and off, if you go between any of those ROR layers it will put you in that space in the 2d map and thats the only space you will edit, to change between editable ROR layers in 2d, use f3 and middle mouse button to select a ROR layer, its outer sector should turn white and thats the only space you will edit

only thing ROR layers share in common is their white outer sector, if you change that on one it will change it on all.

Yeah, that's roughly correct, although the 'I fake texture is purely for display purposes.

Gambini, on 16 May 2011 - 07:40 PM, said:

For example when you switch to the upper part, you certainly can edit the upper connecting sector, but if you add something there, say a surrounding sector, and then go back to the bottom, this surrounding sector that belongs to the "upper world" is still visible and can be affected by merging lines or joining sectors.

And it should be, because you might want to have such a connection. Suppose you model a staircase going from one level to another. Where in between the two heights should the editor start graying out? Any concrete value would be arbitrary, which is why is is possible to do so manually. Ctrl-R and the automatic graying-out are really just two uses of one and the same system, but with different purposes.

Muelsa, on 17 May 2011 - 03:58 AM, said:

made a bridge to test TROR

(vid)

ps: I am not able to copy/past sectors, is this normal ?

Looks good! I notice there are issues with sloped surfaces, this really needs to be tackled.
A bunch of more advanced editor features had to be castrated when working on extended sectors, because applying them in the same way as for normal sectors would introduce inconsistencies. Implementing them in a way that plays nice with TROR is on my list.

Micky C, on 17 May 2011 - 05:14 AM, said:

I made a building with lots and lots of windows. Each of the SEs is a polymer light, so I'm waiting for ROR to be polymer compatible so I can see what it looks like.



It's really corrupt though, with like 40+ errors :S

Eww, that shouldn't happen. What's the message? Also, are there extended sectors with different bunchnums on the two sides of a red wall? I must admit that I haven't tested this case very well.

HellFire, on 17 May 2011 - 07:04 AM, said:

Is there a way to select sectors by clicking them, so i can choose which ones i want to make ROR in a certain area? There's some cases where selecting it with altgr isnt sufficient, for example, i was trying to apply transparent water to E1L3, in the submarine part, ok so first i connected the underwater part with inside the submarine, now how im supposed to connect the underwater sector with the outside sector if i cant select it (if i use alt gr, the submarine will be selected too). Also, i noticed you can't move TROR sectors with altgr but you can with rshift, is that a limitation or just a bug? I read that the ypanning was removed, was that needed? i mean you even created a "new" map format... Also, will the old ROR be removed? If you do so remember to do something about the '3' hotkey in mapster. And how can i toggle that side view mode?

RAlt+RCtrl. (You have to hold RCtrl while releasing RAlt.)
For your other question, there's no support (yet?) for creating portals in the same fashion as walls are automatically reddened.
RShift just works because dragpoint() knows about TROR. A nice side-effect of that is the upper subway in the example map.
RShift just works because it selects all points at a given coordinate...

Tea Monster, on 17 May 2011 - 08:45 AM, said:

Don't mean to be a party pooper, but it was said that Polymer has to do extra passes to accomplish this. Isn't 'extra passes' going to impact an already kinda miserly frame rate once it gets Polymerised?

Extra passes are needed in classic and would be needed in Polymost. Polymer will be able to collect all sectors and draw them in one run. (No warranty, ask Plagman for technical details. Edit: on second thought, don't, because every minute answering questions is a minute not hacking. I'm pretty certain that it's correct.)

[bullerbullerseven]

And instead of thumbing me down, what about saying why you did it? This is annoying lol.
And don't blame nukester for asking a question. Blame the guy who downvoted him. This is like a kids playground. jeez

[Helixhorned]

To get around the slope bugs I will have to introduce another bit to ceiling/floorstat that requires a bit of knowledge how BUILD draws the scene. I would have wished it to be automatic, but I can't find a good way to do that.

The short answer is, it first draws the rooms front to back:


(if the animated png is annoying here, mods please change to a simple link; APNG supported by Firefox or Opera)

The important part are the purple and yellow lines, signifying the umost and dmost arrays: those say, for a given screen x coordinate, the uppermost and lowermost y coordinate that the renderer is allowed to draw to. Note how they always wander in one direction, in effect "closing the curtain" on the scene where something has already be drawn. This is the primary reason why you can't have any kind of ROR in only one pass.



---------

[Stabs]

Muelsa, on 17 May 2011 - 03:58 AM, said:

made a bridge to test TROR



ps: I am not able to copy/past sectors, is this normal ?

nice bridge! and i was just about to ask about that, Can red sectors within TROR eventually be selected with alt and we can have the option to c&p to a layer above or below?

[Master Fibbles]

Is there a way to deselect sectors? I am working on a testing map with a building -- actually, several -- on a street and when I add a layer I have to select all the sectors in a giant box since the street is a corner. It would be nice to be able to deselect the sectors I don't want to be in the next layer (like a building that is no longer going up but has already been built).

EDIT: Nevermind. I figured out some things about the system.
For example, if you were making a street corner with several buildings planned to be enterable and maybe even an alleyway, you would have to make the just the street (ie anything that will see the sky from the ground up) and then add another level. After the second level is added, you can then construct the inside of the buildings. If you were to make the entire first level before adding the second level, you will likely run into problems, or at least I did...

[Micky C]

Micky C, on 17 May 2011 - 05:14 AM, said:

I made a building with lots and lots of windows. Each of the SEs is a polymer light, so I'm waiting for ROR to be polymer compatible so I can see what it looks like.



It's really corrupt though, with like 40+ errors :S

Helixhorned, on 17 May 2011 - 09:56 AM, said:

Eww, that shouldn't happen. What's the message? Also, are there extended sectors with different bunchnums on the two sides of a red wall? I must admit that I haven't tested this case very well.

Helixhorned I've attached the map if you want to have a look at it and figure out what's going on. The number of corrupt walls is as high as it is because I made one collumn of windows, which contained a corruption or two, and copied and pasted it to make the rest of the windows for the building.


And if anyone else is interested in how the building is constructed they can download it too.


Edit: It seems that no matter what my Z height is, I'm only able to edit the bottom set of sectors. That means I'm having trouble linking something say from the third story to the fifth story, because every time I try and make a sector from one the windows, it's always connected to the bottom window. Anyone know why I'm having this problem?

Attached File(s)

•  windows.zip (43.92K)
  Number of downloads: 382

[SwissCm]

Micky C, on 17 May 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

Edit: It seems that no matter what my Z height is, I'm only able to edit the bottom set of sectors. That means I'm having trouble linking something say from the third story to the fifth story, because every time I try and make a sector from one the windows, it's always connected to the bottom window. Anyone know why I'm having this problem?

I get that too. Sometimes it works but I haven't figured out why.

[Helixhorned]

Helixhorned, on 17 May 2011 - 09:56 AM, said:

There are two kinds of sector-over-sector to distinguish here. First, there are "extended sectors" as documented: those have a portal to sectors with the same outer bounding area. Editing extended sectors stacked on each other is always mutually exclusive: there's only one such level of sectors active at any time. Then there's the other type, namely plain old SOS that has always been possible. This is the kind that gets created when you side-add sectors to extended ones; the new ones are never extended themselves, but of the plain type and hence will overlap in the overhead view, unless you also gray them out with the Ctrl-R feature.

I'm quoting myself here because this is really central to understanding why you're able to edit only the lowest level in some cases. For example, in MickyC's map, the window cavities are plain old sectors, and will never be inactivated automatically. If you want to edit such a "level", highlight an enclosing TROR'ed sector, and press Ctrl-R. Quoting myself again because this might have slipped by unnoticed:

Quote

Revision 1877
Modified Sat May 7 18:23:34 2011 UTC

Prototype of a mechanism to gray out certain portion of a map, making them inactive to various, but not all, editing operations. Highlighting a set of sectors and pressing Ctrl-R will make the Z bounds be [(least ceiling z), (greatest floor z)] of all selected ones, pressing Ctrl-R when no sectors are highlighted will reset them.

Auto-grayout for extended sectors will still be active at any time, so you might end up with zero editable sectors.

Micky C, on 17 May 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

Helixhorned I've attached the map if you want to have a look at it and figure out what's going on. The number of corrupt walls is as high as it is because I made one collumn of windows, which contained a corruption or two, and copied and pasted it to make the rest of the windows for the building.

When you encounter a corruption, it's advisable to stop mapping and try to fix it automatically (with 'corruptcheck tryfix'). Did you note which operation produced it?

[Micky C]

No, sorry. I just looked up and went "wow that's a lot of corruptions."

The Ctrl-R feature still isn't very clear to me. Does it make it so that the selected sectors are the only ones that can edited, or that they're the ones that can't be edited?
Edit: never mind, I figured it out. It makes it so only the heights of the selected sectors can be edited.

Second edit: The corruptions have been fixed, I've linked a window on the bottom floor to a window on the top floor, and I've decorated the street somewhat. If anyone were ever going to download this map to have a look at, now would be a good time.

There is one glitch though, when I'm in the second top layer in 3D mode, the entire top layer just vanishes, and the parallaxed sky shows the brick texture I used and I can't seem to change it. When I'm in any other layer, the scene renders normally.

Attached File(s)

•  windowsfinal.zip (52.48K)
  Number of downloads: 392

[Fox]

Downloading your map I already faced an error. Shooting a RPG toward the building caused a "too many sprites spawned" crash.

Despite that, DNCLIP don't warp you toward sectors at a different height, even if you are at an "invalid" location.

[Micky C]

Yeah sorry about not putting the starting position inside the valid player space (which kills you when you start the map for those who didn't know). I tried the map and the RPG works perfectly fine, no crashes or error messages or anything.

I reuploaded the map with the correct player starting position and made it much, much more user friendly, with signs pointing where to go, TROR water to fall into from the window, and even a nuke button if you want to finish the level. There's only one way to finish the level without using cheat codes, and that's to go through the window.

The reuploaded map replaced the old one in my last post. The glitch about the top layer vanishing when the player is inside the second to top layer is still there but it's not noticeable unless you get a jetpack and fly up there.

[Fox]

I suppose with this RoR, being "true", you can't convert Tier Drops on that?

[bullerbullerseven]

For some reason i just can't get it to work xD I've always had problems with the mapping keys.

[Helixhorned]

Micky C, on 18 May 2011 - 02:18 AM, said:

No, sorry. I just looked up and went "wow that's a lot of corruptions."

The Ctrl-R feature still isn't very clear to me. Does it make it so that the selected sectors are the only ones that can edited, or that they're the ones that can't be edited?
Edit: never mind, I figured it out. It makes it so only the heights of the selected sectors can be edited.

(...)

There is one glitch though, when I'm in the second top layer in 3D mode, the entire top layer just vanishes, and the parallaxed sky shows the brick texture I used and I can't seem to change it. When I'm in any other layer, the scene renders normally.

3D mode editing isn't affected at all. The "certain operations" that are still active I mentioned is mainly selecting with RShift.

As for the glitch, make sure that the invisible portals aren't parallaxed! Doing so will cause their sectors to draw in a significantly different fashion and the result will look messed up. Generally, it's a good idea to look at the map with 'show invisibility' on once in a while.

Fox, on 18 May 2011 - 03:43 AM, said:

Downloading your map I already faced an error. Shooting a RPG toward the building caused a "too many sprites spawned" crash.

That's weird, TROR never spawns sprites (it only duplicates tsprites when needed). Is it easily reproducible on your end?

[HellFire]

Hi, i have been experimenting with this a bit, i did translucent water in E1L3 map, but there's some bugs and i would like to know if its my fault or if its limitation of TROR, i would assume that it is my fault, but i read something regarding slopes limitations, so i dont know... In the attachment i put some screen shots plus the map itself.

Attached File(s)

•  E1L3_TROR.zip (496.12K)
  Number of downloads: 315

[Helixhorned]

That's a pretty hard limitation and happens because of how BUILD renders one pass, described above.



In the picture, one pass is needed for the underwater section, so when the area between the screen bottom and the water-air boundary has been drawn, the x interval between the left and right submarine boundaries is not available for drawing any more. What this means in practice is that TROR portals must be free of 'islands'.

Edit 20150218: updated URL.

[Fox]

So would it work if you break the ROR sector in parts?

And should I ask, why use ypanning instead of extra structure members, or is extra already in use, should I assume this is very temporary?

[Helixhorned]

Fox, on 18 May 2011 - 01:19 PM, said:

So would it work if you break the ROR sector in parts?

Yep, just tested it, but it gets ugly pretty quickly: you have to partition the whole area into convex polygons. This doesn't work if you want subways with a roof, though .
edit: also it might need more drawing than necessary.

Quote

And should I ask, why use ypanning instead of extra structure members, or is extra already in use, should I assume this is very temporary?

That totally didn't occur to me because 1) originally it even used ypanning but I realized that 256 bunches are more than enough and 2) I feared that extra would somehow conflict with CON-programmed stuff. In hindsight, this would've probably been a better choice.

[Helixhorned]

Try out the new Ctrl-A feature. It enables automatic grayout of plain sectors based on the currently active extended ones. I think this is a lot more like you'd expect it to work intuitively.

[Muelsa]

Helixhorned, on 18 May 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

Try out the new Ctrl-A feature. It enables automatic grayout of plain sectors based on the currently active extended ones. I think this is a lot more like you'd expect it to work intuitively.

that's awesome.


They are a way to "un-extend" a sector ? This video show my problem :

[Helixhorned]

Muelsa, on 19 May 2011 - 01:19 AM, said:

They are a way to "un-extend" a sector ? This video show my problem :

No, currently there's no way to clear the extension from a sector besides, as you noted, deleting it. That will delete one the selected sector(s) but also clear all portals between them, because otherwise you might end up in a situation where you could go from one sector into void space. I agree that it's too restrictive that way. What would be needed is a "covers the same area as..." function, then a lot of editor functionality could be made more permissive in cases like yours.

[Jblade]

Just a quick question - what texture number does the RoR 'change' to ingame/with the preview? When I try to check out the preview with my custom art tiles it shows pink/blue stuff whereas in a normal copy of Duke it shows up invisible like in your screenshots. It looks like I've put a tile in the tile number you chose for the ROR one, what tile number is it?