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360 Demo Leaked? Do not support piracy!

User is offline   Raziel 

#541

View Postthemaniacboy, on 25 May 2011 - 02:19 PM, said:

Stealing is taking something away from someone, it's like i am stealing your Xbox 360 and never giving it back.
You have to buy a new one, but i don't, i have yours.

But pirating a game, is downloading a copy of that game.
Only thing is, the owner still has his game, but you also have his game.
Both still happy.

I'm sorry, but no, this is crap...

What you're paying for is the experience, you give $60 (or whatever amount) to play the game. When you pirate, you get that experience but you're not actually paying for it like you should. You're trying to argue that no one has actually lost anything because the original disc is still in the original owner's hands. With software, it is not about the physical disc, the physical disc is just a medium on which the software is distributed. Publishers make copies of the software/game just like pirates do, but they do so with the expectation that they will receive payment for it. So if you have a copy of the software, it is reasonable to expect that the developers would have received some percentage of the sale value of that software. Because they got nothing while you still played the game, you have effectively stolen money from them by refusing to pay for it. It's about exchange, you get the experience, they get paid for providing that experience. When you pirate, you get the experience, but they don't get paid for it.

Let's say a shop owner figured out how to clone watermelons for free, by your reasoning it is okay to walk out of the shop with such a watermelon without paying for it since the shop owner still has his original watermelon and can clone more of them. The fact is: the shop owner expected to get something in return for that watermelon but got nothing, in other words, you've stolen it. Let's look at it another way: your friend goes to an amusement park and buys one ticket, at home you make copies of that ticket and go on rides for free using your copied tickets. You're saying it's not stealing because they have not lost any of their original tickets. The fact is, it is stealing because it isn't the tickets they are selling, that's not where the value is, the value is in the experience. You don't go to an amusement park to buy tickets, you go there and pay to have fun on the rides, in other words, you pay for the experience.

Software works the same way, the value is not in the DVD, you don't buy the DVD just to have it collecting dust on your shelf, you buy it for the software that is on the DVD, that is what the developer is selling to you. The publisher is only using the DVD as a way to distribute the software, the developer doesn't care whether a copy is distributed electronically or on DVD, the expectation is just that when a copy is made, they would get paid for it so they can feed their family.

As a software developer, I am absolutely disgusted when I read these kinds of comments. When a copy of their software is made (regardless of whether it was copied legally or illegally), the software developer should be paid for providing that software. If you're not paying for the software you are using, there really isn't any other way of putting it, it's theft.


Raz.

This post has been edited by Raziel: 31 May 2011 - 03:07 AM

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#542

View PostMad Max RW, on 30 May 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:

You mean like how China copies foreign products and resells them at extremely low prices worldwide, undermining the rest of our economies?

Very soon China will become a world leader and to be perfectly honest with you, I welcome it.
I've seen what the current powers can do, It's time we see what China can do too.
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#543

View PostRaziel, on 31 May 2011 - 03:01 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but no, this is crap...

What you're paying for is the experience, you give $60 (or whatever amount) to play the game. When you pirate, you get that experience but you're not actually paying for it like you should. You're trying to argue that no one has actually lost anything because the original disc is still in the original owner's hands. With software, it is not about the physical disc, the physical disc is just a medium on which the software is distributed. Publishers make copies of the software/game just like pirates do, but they do so with the expectation that they will receive payment for it. So if you have a copy of the software, it is reasonable to expect that the developers would have received some percentage of the sale value of that software. Because they got nothing while you still played the game, you have effectively stolen money from them by refusing to pay for it. It's about exchange, you get the experience, they get paid for providing that experience. When you pirate, you get the experience, but they don't get paid for it.

Let's say a shop owner figured out how to clone watermelons for free, by your reasoning it is okay to walk out of the shop with such a watermelon without paying for it since the shop owner still has his original watermelon and can clone more of them. The fact is: the shop owner expected to get something in return for that watermelon but got nothing, in other words, you've stolen it. Let's look at it another way: your friend goes to an amusement park and buys one ticket, at home you make copies of that ticket and go on rides for free using your copied tickets. You're saying it's not stealing because they have not lost any of their original tickets. The fact is, it is stealing because it isn't the tickets they are selling, that's not where the value is, the value is in the experience. You don't go to an amusement park to buy tickets, you go there and pay to have fun on the rides, in other words, you pay for the experience.

Software works the same way, the value is not in the DVD, you don't buy the DVD just to have it collecting dust on your shelf, you buy it for the software that is on the DVD, that is what the developer is selling to you. The publisher is only using the DVD as a way to distribute the software, the developer doesn't care whether a copy is distributed electronically or on DVD, the expectation is just that when a copy is made, they would get paid for it so they can feed their family.

As a software developer, I am absolutely disgusted when I read these kinds of comments. When a copy of their software is made (regardless of whether it was copied legally or illegally), the software developer should be paid for providing that software. If you're not paying for the software you are using, there really isn't any other way of putting it, it's theft.


Raz.


I know Raziel, but i was just trying to understand Fox's opinion.
I totally agree with your comment.
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User is offline   Raziel 

#544

View Postthemaniacboy, on 31 May 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

I know Raziel, but i was just trying to understand Fox's opinion.
I totally agree with your comment.

There is nothing to understand really, it's the oldest excuse in the book to try and justify piracy. It's right up there with 'if the software was cheaper I would buy it' - the iPhone AppStore proves that is clearly not true (some software on the AppStore is pirated 20 to 1, and we're not talking about $60 games, we're talking about games less than the cost of a cup of coffee). It really is extremely sad because those developers will simply stop making software since it just wouldn't be worth their time and money, or they might choose to cut corners, either way, the developers aren't the only ones losing, the consumers will end up paying for it as well, one way or the other.
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User is offline   Mad Max RW 

#545

View PostMr.Deviance, on 31 May 2011 - 03:32 AM, said:

Very soon China will become a world leader and to be perfectly honest with you, I welcome it.
I've seen what the current powers can do, It's time we see what China can do too.


China is already setting themselves up for a housing bubble burst that will dwarf what happened in the US. When that happens they're going to bring the entire world economy with them. Look up Chinese ghost cities then come back and tell me you're still looking forward to what they can do. They built the largest mall in the world and it's more than 99% vacant. Yeah, I'm really excited about China.

This post has been edited by Mad Max RW: 31 May 2011 - 05:07 AM

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User is offline   Mikko 

  • Honored Donor

#546

View PostFox, on 30 May 2011 - 07:23 PM, said:

That happens with all kind of change in society


This is true. No sector of the economy should be protected from modernity. Luddites, for example, tried to stop the Industrial Revolution by sabotaging machinery that had made them obsolete. Opposing change simply because some people may lose their jobs is insanity.

And yet property rights and contracts resulting from those rights are the foundation of economic welfare. Change in this case would mean steps toward the kind of societies that existed hundreds of years ago (and in fact still exist in most parts of the world), societies where people avoid the kind of economic activity that would be welfare-enhancing simply because they cannot be made to trust each other.

View PostMad Max RW, on 31 May 2011 - 04:49 AM, said:

China is already setting themselves up for a housing bubble burst that will dwarf what happened in the US. When that happens they're going to bring the entire world economy with them. Look up Chinese ghost cities then come back and tell me you're still looking forward to what they can do. They built the largest mall in the world and it's more than 99% vacant. Yeah, I'm really excited about China.


You can forget about some housing bubble. China is wasting tons of resources on unproductive purposes, not just housing. (Don't get me wrong; more housing is desperately needed in China because of migration but these decisions should not be made by the government.) China will never reach Western income levels if things continue the way they are.
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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

#547

View PostRaziel, on 31 May 2011 - 04:22 AM, said:

There is nothing to understand really, it's the oldest excuse in the book to try and justify piracy. It's right up there with 'if the software was cheaper I would buy it' - the iPhone AppStore proves that is clearly not true (some software on the AppStore is pirated 20 to 1, and we're not talking about $60 games, we're talking about games less than the cost of a cup of coffee). It really is extremely sad because those developers will simply stop making software since it just wouldn't be worth their time and money, or they might choose to cut corners, either way, the developers aren't the only ones losing, the consumers will end up paying for it as well, one way or the other.
I really like both of your posts Raziel... strange that I agree with you twice in a row. LOL!
But seriously... this thread is disturbing... or the shallowness within is. It is very black and white with me... cutesy statements and cliche' and other meaningless social statements being used as "real" argument for copying software is pretty sad.
There has been no real argument (because there isn't one) that holds any validity in this thread relative to stealing someones software.
Just like Raziel said, you pay for the experience. If you experience it without paying, it is "stealing" no matter what you want to call it.

MrBlackCat
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User is offline   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!

#548

I will say one more time: piracy is not "stealing" because the words have distinct meanings.

And if you intentionally misuse the words like that you are misleading. Not a good example from the anti-piracy moralists.

View PostRaziel, on 31 May 2011 - 03:01 AM, said:

Let's say a shop owner figured out how to clone watermelons for free, by your reasoning it is okay to walk out of the shop with such a watermelon without paying for it since the shop owner still has his original watermelon and can clone more of them. The fact is: the shop owner expected to get something in return for that watermelon but got nothing, in other words, you've stolen it.

That's a very bad example. You can "copy" watermelons in real life by taking their seeds.

And since none of the farmers today discovered their own seeds, they must all have stolen it

View PostMrBlackCat, on 31 May 2011 - 07:29 AM, said:

I really like both of your posts Raziel... strange that I agree with you twice in a row. LOL!
But seriously... this thread is disturbing... or the shallowness within is. It is very black and white with me... cutesy statements and cliche' and other meaningless social statements being used as "real" argument for copying software is pretty sad.
There has been no real argument (because there isn't one) that holds any validity in this thread relative to stealing someones software.
Just like Raziel said, you pay for the experience. If you experience it without paying, it is "stealing" no matter what you want to call it.

MrBlackCat

No offense, but it sounds more like you are arguing about religion

This post has been edited by Fox: 31 May 2011 - 10:34 AM

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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

#549

View PostFox, on 31 May 2011 - 10:30 AM, said:

No offense, but it sounds more like you are arguing about religion

No, no, no... religion is different still. In many religions, the seller (like a church maybe) just takes payments for a product you don't have to deliver on until after the person dies. Kind of different.

But no... I was just stating the fact. People make products for the monetary return. If the product is a game and you play it, they get the monetary return. If not, you are stealing. Simple, easy, painless... but not what criminals wish to hear. :angry:
If the creator of the product does not benefit from the USE of their product, then it is stealing, bad, wrong, or whatever word you wish to use. Playing games with the definition of words is just games.

Like I said before, it is legal to make most any software you want and give it away. I would not try to take that right from someone.

And one more time... there is no gray area here, all attempted arguments presented are are just hollow attempts at justification for piracy.
===========================
"And then... Reality sets in..."

Just because I state my views so adamantly, doesn't mean I am unrealistic either.
So on that note... go pirates!

The good part for all you pirates is that at least in the US, the system is monetary, and very lazy... if there is no money involved, the laws will not likely be enforced at an individual level like with music piracy etc. You pretty much have to be selling copies to get enough attention to get into any legal issue. So as time goes by, law enforcement seem to be getting more and more lax... and your potential hazard for piracy will be as non-existent as it is today.

Because of this, views like mine will most likely die out with time anyway... ideals don't make laws anymore, political catering to special interest groups do most of it in my opinion.
So... regardless of my views, piracy will continue to increase I believe. (YAY! For you guys)
So I DO expect a Thank You from the Pirate Community each time you successfully pirate a game because I am one of those who probably bought an extra copy and compensated for the one you didn't pay for... because there must be enough people paying for the games to keep the companies in business. I will keep doing just that.

So Pirates, before attacking us, the game buyers, for our views... keep in mind that without us, you could not exist, because you would have nothing to pirate... someone has to be paying.

MrBlackCat

This post has been edited by MrBlackCat: 31 May 2011 - 05:14 PM

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User is offline   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!

#550

View PostMrBlackCat, on 31 May 2011 - 05:01 PM, said:

there is no gray area here

How can you say there aren't grey areas in a controversial subject?

Isn't that a little too extremist?

View PostMrBlackCat, on 31 May 2011 - 05:01 PM, said:

So Pirates, before attacking us, the game buyers

Am I supposed to think that the world is divided in only two extremes, people who buy games, and people who don't? As far I can tell, the huge majority of people do both of them.

I for example download plenty of series episodes from the Internet. However I also have a Steam version of Bad Company 2. How exactly I fit in your declaration?

This post has been edited by Fox: 31 May 2011 - 06:10 PM

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User is offline   You 

#551

View PostFox, on 31 May 2011 - 05:52 PM, said:

How can you say there aren't grey areas in a controversial subject?

Isn't that a little too extremist?


Am I supposed to think that the world is divided in only two extremes, people who buy games, and people who don't? As far I can tell, the huge majority of people do both of them.

I for example download plenty of series episodes from the Internet. However I also have a Steam version of Bad Company 2. How exactly I fit in your declaration?


You guys are getting way too far into this. I'd normally ignore an internet conversation like this, but just want to say that if I had a JTAG Xbox, or the PS3 demo was about, I'd be playing the demo and my conscience wouldn't be worried. I'm still going to buy the game anyway, playing a crippled version of the demo is not in ANYWAY stealing.

This post has been edited by You: 31 May 2011 - 06:18 PM

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User is offline   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!

#552

Your nickname is too confusing! I posted a while ago, and them I read in the index "Posted 1 minute ago by: You"
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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

#553

View PostFox, on 31 May 2011 - 05:52 PM, said:

How can you say there aren't grey areas in a controversial subject?

Isn't that a little too extremist?
Areas... more than one, so I never said that at all. The subject as a whole of course has gray areas... I have systematically separated the areas to this one, which I keep stating clearly.

I am saying this... The gray areas I am not questioning. But one fact is without gray...
"You pay money for a game to experience it... if you can experience it without paying for it then it is a form of stealing."
The purpose of a game is to play it. We pay to play it. If you can play and you didn't pay, you stole "the experience".
When solid objects can be copied more readily it will make more sense. (and they can already by the way, just simple things though)

Otherwise I should be entitled to ANYTHING I can digitally copy? When you write a book and I copy it and then pass it out on the internet for free, see how you feel about that.

The fact that it IS a form of stealing is not a gray area at all.
How it should be handled, if that is what you mean, is absolutely a gray area to which I have never disagreed, and have only stated my opinions and views. No argument there... quite gray.

Fox said:

Am I supposed to think that the world is divided in only two extremes, people who buy games, and people who don't? As far I can tell, the huge majority of people do both of them.

No, you are not supposed to believe that. I agree that most people do both. I choose not to do it for reasons exhaustively restated.

Fox said:

I for example download plenty of series episodes from the Internet. However I also have a Steam version of Bad Company 2. How exactly I fit in your declaration?

I am not sure what you typed means... but if you have pirated material on your computer, then I would consider you a pirate.
That would be like telling a cop "Well I didn't speed on three roads back there, so that should make speeding on this road ok."
Another example is a guy that used to steal candy from an honor system candy box in our office... he once told me "Well, I feel like since I honestly pay for three or four I kind of earn a free one." Eventually the theft rate was more than 50%... so we lost the service.

But like I said... steal if you want, that is not even my argument. Just don't pretend like you don't understand it is stealing... because if you don't think that, something is really wrong. Black and White.

Maybe I should ask this... What do you wish to call: Taking/copying the creative efforts of another person or persons and using it without providing financial support for their efforts, as that being the sole purpose of the creative effort?
Please define, so I know what to call it...

View PostYou, on 31 May 2011 - 06:18 PM, said:

You guys are getting way too far into this. I'd normally ignore an internet conversation like this, but just want to say that if I had a JTAG Xbox, or the PS3 demo was about, I'd be playing the demo and my conscience wouldn't be worried. I'm still going to buy the game anyway, playing a crippled version of the demo is not in ANYWAY stealing.
Yeah... I agree with you actually. It is a demo and there was no monetary exchange etc. I would choose not to maybe out of my own principles and I am also not "aching" and "suffering" because I have no patience to wait and play the Demo or the game.
But yes, this thread has way exceeded that now. It is more purely about the definition and justification of Piracy, no longer relative to the leaked or hacked Demo.

MrBlackCat

This post has been edited by MrBlackCat: 31 May 2011 - 06:58 PM

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User is offline   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!

#554

Quote

The fact that it IS a form of stealing is not a gray area at all.

No, it's not a gray area, it's just misuse of the word.

Quote

Just don't pretend like you don't understand it is stealing...

The dictionary that is pretending, I am only following it.

Quote

Maybe I should ask this... What do you wish to call: Taking/copying the creative efforts of another person or persons and using it without providing financial support for their efforts, as that being the sole purpose of the creative effort?
Please define, so I know what to call it...

Copyright infringement. That's the definition of piracy.

Besides, do you notice how weird it is to look at you saying "financial support" in a thread about a leaked DEMO, which by definition is piracy?

This post has been edited by Fox: 31 May 2011 - 07:07 PM

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User is offline   Fox Mulder 

#555

View PostFox, on 31 May 2011 - 06:35 PM, said:

Your nickname is too confusing! I posted a while ago, and them I read in the index "Posted 1 minute ago by: You"


:angry: Got me a couple of times too.
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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

#556

View PostFox, on 31 May 2011 - 07:03 PM, said:

No, it's not a gray area, it's just misuse of the word.
Incorrect... read below.
In fairness I asked a direct question in my last post you skipped.

Quote

Maybe I should ask this... What do you wish to call: Taking/copying the creative efforts of another person or persons and using it without providing financial support for their efforts, as that being the sole purpose of the creative effort?
Please define, so I know what to call it...


Fox said:

Copyright infringement. That's the definition of piracy.

I know well the definition of piracy. I got it for you in layman's terms even.

Quote

Piracy

When someone installs and uses commercial software without paying for the program, it is called "pirating" the software. This name comes from the traditional meaning of the word "pirate," which is a sea-faring criminal that steals and loots belongings from others. But far from the stereotypical sea pirate, a software pirate can be anyone who owns a computer. Software piracy is committed by simply downloading or copying a program that a user has not paid for.

Since computer programs are stored in a digital format, they are easy to copy and reproduce. For example, a game may be burned to a CD and transferred to the computer of an individual who has not paid for the program. Software programs can also be illegally downloaded from the Internet from unauthorized sources. Since pirating software does not require many resources, it has grown into a major problem for the computer industry.

While it may seem like an innocuous act, pirating software is the same as stealing. Software companies often invest thousands or even millions of dollars into creating the programs they sell. The income from selling these programs is what allows companies to produce the software and to continue improving the programs we use. Just because it is possible to copy a software program does not mean it is OK. Installing a commercial program from an illegal copy is the same thing as walking out of a store with the program and not paying for it."

You are welcome to argue your point with them... Source.

Playing games with word definitions is just that. Games.

Quote

Besides, do you notice how weird it is to look at you saying "financial support" in a thread about a leaked DEMO, which by definition is piracy?
Do you notice how we weren't currently talking specifically about the Demo? We were defining a form of stealing and debunking attempts to justify piracy. Did you also notice how I pointed that out at the end of my last post?

If you wish to debate this, by all mean define your views and why... I will listen. I am open to any defined view... defined being the key though. I generally think out my views the best I can, so I honestly enjoy being proven wrong, shown other views etc... I want to learn and grow etc. This is not what is going on here however. Lots of wasted time in the name of debate.

MrBlackCat
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User is offline   Stabs 

#557

19 pages of this... :angry:

so who is winning?
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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#558

View PostDanM, on 31 May 2011 - 09:40 PM, said:

19 pages of this... :angry:

so who is winning?

Surprisingly, not Charlie Sheen.

I think the only winners here are the pirates. Producers suffer because they can't make profits off of limited sales thus resulting in lower-quality games, and consumers suffer because they need to deal with restrictive DRM protection. The pirates don't give two shits either way; they're playing the game for free, and thus there's no risk of getting suckered into buying a shitty game.

I don't know about you, but I can see a very clear vicious cycle, and it's not a pretty one either.
2

User is offline   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!

#559

View PostMrBlackCat, on 31 May 2011 - 09:23 PM, said:

In fairness I asked a direct question in my last post you skipped.

Well, I am sorry but I didn't notice your question. Perhaps my English is not so good. Or I tought it was rhetorical or sarcastic. Of course I also don't have obligation to answer every question of each crazy religious fanaticism scientologist in the Internet.

View PostMrBlackCat, on 31 May 2011 - 09:23 PM, said:

I know well the definition of piracy. I got it for you in layman's terms even.

You are welcome to argue your point with them... Source.

I don't care about how the law "defines" a word (i.e. a country treating a transvestite like a woman don't make him a woman). Especially because I don't live in the same country of you.

Besides, the definition over here is WRONG. You can pirate free content (i.e. this thread subject).

Of course the definition of a classical pirate is also wrong, since you could be considered a pirate (and pursued) by simply raising a flag.

View PostMrBlackCat, on 31 May 2011 - 09:23 PM, said:

Playing games with word definitions is just that. Games.

So what if I say that who else don't practice piracy is a murder? Would that be ok for you, since the definition of words don't matter?

View PostMrBlackCat, on 31 May 2011 - 09:23 PM, said:

Do you notice how we weren't currently talking specifically about the Demo? We were defining a form of stealing and debunking attempts to justify piracy. Did you also notice how I pointed that out at the end of my last post?

I know that you wasn't especifically talking about JTAG demo. But if you say that piracy is theft because you don't pay for something, you can't ignore that example.

Of course that's not the sole example of why piracy don't match the definition of stealing. The number of downloads a person does is much higher than they would pay for if piracy didn't exist.

View PostMrBlackCat, on 31 May 2011 - 09:23 PM, said:

If you wish to debate this, by all mean define your views and why... I will listen. I am open to any defined view... defined being the key though. I generally think out my views the best I can, so I honestly enjoy being proven wrong, shown other views etc... I want to learn and grow etc. This is not what is going on here however. Lots of wasted time in the name of debate.

Really? You didn't looked any open minded in this thread.

Just look this post. You even said "There has been no real argument [for copying software] (because there isn't one)".

And replace "copying software" in your post of yours with "sex before marriage" or any other triviality. How it sounds? And that's not the only post that you looks very obstinate.

This post has been edited by Fox: 31 May 2011 - 10:29 PM

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User is offline   Fox Mulder 

#560

View PostDanM, on 31 May 2011 - 09:40 PM, said:

19 pages of this... :angry:

so who is winning?


http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
2

User is offline   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!

#561

Yeah, that's me.

Have you played Bad Company 2? It's like that all time
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User is offline   Fox Mulder 

#562

View PostFox, on 31 May 2011 - 11:54 PM, said:

Yeah, that's me.

Have you played Bad Company 2? It's like that all time


Ha ha, why?
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User is offline   Stabs 

#563

well expect another 19 pages at least in a few days when the inevitable console leak happens, has happened to every game and this will be no different.
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User is offline   Mad Max RW 

#564

In other news, Deux Ex 3 was leaked and it's not coming out until August.
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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

#565

View PostFox, on 31 May 2011 - 10:20 PM, said:

Well, I am sorry but I didn't notice your question. Perhaps my English is not so good. Or I tought it was rhetorical or sarcastic. Of course I also don't have obligation to answer every question of each crazy religious fanaticism scientologist in the Internet.

No need for insults really... I don't assume you are crazy or a fanatic just because you are questioning my view.

Fox said:

I don't care about how the law "defines" a word (i.e. a country treating a transvestite like a woman don't make him a woman). Especially because I don't live in the same country of you.
Ok... we agree on that then. I don't care what people want to call "wrong", it is still wrong.

Fox said:

Besides, the definition over here is WRONG. You can pirate free content (i.e. this thread subject).
Of course the definition of a classical pirate is also wrong, since you could be considered a pirate (and pursued) by simply raising a flag.
Ok... but I still am unable to relate that to concept of not paying for software you use is not stealing. (or whatever word you want to use)

Fox said:

So what if I say that who else don't practice piracy is a murder? Would that be ok for you, since the definition of words don't matter?
I am unable to get your point... <?>

Fox said:

I know that you wasn't especifically talking about JTAG demo. But if you say that piracy is theft because you don't pay for something, you can't ignore that example.
I am glad we are on the same page with at least the concept the conversation had evolved into defining "not paying for software you are using" basically.

Fox said:

Of course that's not the sole example of why piracy don't match the definition of stealing. The number of downloads a person does is much higher than they would pay for if piracy didn't exist.
I don't doubt that... never really disagreed with that before.

Fox said:

Really? You didn't looked any open minded in this thread.

Just look this post. You even said "There has been no real argument [for copying software] (because there isn't one)".
Ok... show me one.

Fox said:

And replace "copying software" in your post of yours with "sex before marriage" or any other triviality. How it sounds? And that's not the only post that you looks very obstinate.

Ok... I am obstinate.

Lets start over then... from the beginning. If all our energy goes into defining every word, it becomes impossible to discuss anything.
In my experience, most of the time when a thread deteriorates into defining words, it is only a diversion from the concept because the opposing view can not be supported, or the user is unable to express their view effectively.

Like this:
Person 1 "Well I think the sky is blue"
Person 2 "Well it is not, it is green."
Person 1 "Why don't we go outside and look then?"
Person 2 "I don't have to because I already know it is green!"
Person 1 "Ok... how do you know it is green? Have you been outside?"
Person 2 "Everyone else knows it is green without even going outside."
Person 1 "For the sake of argument, will you come outside and look?"
Person 2 "I already said IT IS GREEN and you can't make me go outside!"
Person 1 "WTH? I just asked if you would go outside, I never tried to make you..."
Person 2 "Well I don't like your tone of voice! And all you Green Sky types are the same and always trying to make me do things!"
Person 1 "Well I am getting frustrated because you won't let me show you the sky is blue... won't you come outside and just look?"
Person 2 "See how easy you get frustrated when you are wrong?! Then in your frustration you try to force me to do things against my will!"
Person 1 "Never mind..."
Person 2 "Never mind?! Now after getting me all worked up you just want to walk away... TROLL!"

Yeah... like that. That is how this feels to me. Not really been a lot of discussion, just a few stated views, but no logic has been presented to support most of the views. I re-read to check.
All the energy and time is consume playing with words, not concepts... that seems to be the big issue here really. The same reason people focus on grammar and spelling when they don't agree with someones view.

But this is how it is going...
Me "But the sky IS blue."
Person 2 "there are a lot of blue things though"
Me "Uh... be I am talking about THIS thing... the sky."
Person 2 "The definition of sky is pretty vague really."
Me "Ok... the sky is: the atmosphere above the ground around earth."
Person 2 "Well if you think about it, Blue is not absolute either..."

So on and on and nothing "real" or "positive" is ever accomplished. Like right now.
=================================
So directly on topic... I have no issue with someone else downloading this cracked demo and playing it. If the owner (GearBox or 2K etc) of this asked me not to, I will, out of respect for them, not use it. If you choose not to respect the owners of the Demo, that is your choice, but not mine.

I view it about like smoking cigarettes... I don't care if you do, I just choose not to. I am not "anti-smoking" I am a "non-smoker".
The only reason I even posted in this thread is because the focus turned toward the CONCEPT of piracy and away from this leaked Demo.
But downloading this leaked demo and playing it has nothing to do with the direction the thread went... a definition of piracy. People who didn't read the whole thread didn't understand the evolution from Demo to "defining piracy" I think.

MrBlackCat

This post has been edited by MrBlackCat: 01 June 2011 - 07:26 PM

-1

User is offline   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!

#566

View PostMrBlackCat, on 01 June 2011 - 07:21 PM, said:

No need for insults really... I don't assume you are crazy or a fanatic just because you are questioning my view.

Sorry, I didn't meant to insult you. it's just that I don't have obligation to answer every question you make (especially if you don't make it clear you want a answer), considering how many crazy people are there in the Internet

View PostMrBlackCat, on 01 June 2011 - 07:21 PM, said:

But this is how it is going...
Me "But the sky IS blue."

Really? I feel like you was the one saying the sky was green, not me.



I am bored. I think I also made a lot of users bored too (sorry guy!). By the way what's up with the wall of text?

This post has been edited by Fox: 01 June 2011 - 09:09 PM

0

User is offline   MrBlackCat 

#567

View PostFox, on 01 June 2011 - 09:02 PM, said:

Sorry, I didn't meant to insult you. it's just that I don't have obligation to answer every question you make (especially if you don't make it clear you want a answer), considering how many crazy people are there in the Internet
I know... I think you are just frustrated with the fact I don't understand your view.

Fox said:

Really? I feel like you was the one saying the sky was green, not me.
I know you think this also. That is why I say we will get nowhere.

Fox said:

I am bored. I think I also made a lot of users bored too (sorry guy!). By the way what's up with the wall of text?
Yep... I hate when that happens. If it doesn't contribute to anyone but the guys munching popcorn over there (hehehe) I don't think it is worth bothering with.

How about this.
I don't like piracy, so I don't do piracy. I will just leave it at that.

MrBlackCat
1

User is offline   Alithinos 

#568

Damn,it's the last day before the real demo and it's the hardest of them all!
0

User is offline   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!

#569

Okay, sorry if I insulted you at some point

View PostFox Mulder, on 01 June 2011 - 12:42 AM, said:

Ha ha, why?

I took a screenshot for you right now:

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h441/Fox_969/2011-06-02_00026.png

This post has been edited by Fox: 02 June 2011 - 12:03 AM

2

User is offline   MrBlackCat 

#570

View PostFox, on 02 June 2011 - 12:02 AM, said:

Okay, sorry if I insulted you at some point

I took a screenshot for you right now:

Insult was understandable from my understanding of your point of view. Expected.

Hehe... yeah. When people start speaking in absolutes without backing up what they say, it almost always goes like that in my experience.

Well we might not be able to communicate our views effectively on this matter, but at least there is always YouTube comments to make Charles Manson have the appearance of a clearly expressed University Professor teaching sanity and reason. That stuff is amazing. (you know, like in a Doomsday sense)
================================

I guess this hacked Demo is no longer of much interest as the real deal comes out tomorrow.

MrBlackCat

This post has been edited by MrBlackCat: 02 June 2011 - 06:00 AM

0

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