[VinsaneOne]

Captain Awesome, on Oct 21 2010, 09:11 PM, said:

(Not that they'd steal fan-made shit in the first place.)

You said that, in your own words. I give you an eye-opening example where it has happened, (the matter regarding TX and 3DR) but then, you'd rather say...

Captain Awesome, on Oct 23 2010, 01:25 PM, said:

Goddamn, are you one dumb asshole. I love how you try to prove your point by bringing up things that are IRRELEVANT.

...I love how you edit my quotes in an effort to make it sound irrelevant. But your childish mind leads you to think no one has read my OP(s). That's where you fail enormously. Unlike other people here, you just avoid everything that's important. It's so obvious you choose to even ignore actual proof given to you by replying with utter bullshit like a little wuss cause you're not man enough to admit a point was made and clearly proven as being a fact and totally relevant. Learning to man-up is the lesson here. It will make you a better person and serve you well later on in life.

MusicallyInspired, on Oct 23 2010, 07:17 PM, said:

Yeah he did, he called him Captain Asshole.

Correct. That I did after taking numerous insults from him.
@Commando Nukem: It fit so well, you didn't even notice! Thanks though for being there my friend....
@Mr.Deviance: Thank you, and well said too!

[Tea Monster]

Captain Awesome, on Oct 23 2010, 07:18 PM, said:

Oh fuck off, you sound like a woman on her period. Have a tampon.

You sound like an angry 10 year old... no, I take that back, my 7 year old would never behave the way you do.

Care to explain to us what part of official licence, large team, better engine than DNF is 'fail'?

[----]

Tea Monster, on Oct 23 2010, 10:07 PM, said:

You sound like an angry 10 year old... no, I take that back, my 7 year old would never behave the way you do.

Care to explain to us what part of official licence, large team, better engine than DNF is 'fail'?

Let's face it:

The mod in it's very early stages is far better than the average bahavior on this forum.

Being a regular on a lot of gaming-forums I think I found the new personal low (I am sure there are worse out there, I just haven't visited them).

[Night Wolf]

Please people just ignore the trolls and stay on topic

ReaperMan, on Oct 24 2010, 07:49 AM, said:

Best Duke Nukem 3d map remake ever.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KzgFp1ZL9Ec

That's not a remake, that's straight out of Duke 3D.
simple build map design...too simple

The Commander, on Oct 24 2010, 07:04 AM, said:

If you do have Half Life 2 I would recommend taking a look at the map, even though it's made for MP it's still worth a look at to get what I mean exactly.

I could give it a go, I have half life 2 around here somewhere, still I think that the Crysis map reflected Hollywood Holocaust very well at the same time as modernising it, which is the way to go imo.
Although I've only seen a small portion of the map.

[Richard Shead]

fuegerstef, on Oct 24 2010, 02:26 AM, said:

Let's face it:

The mod in it's very early stages is far better than the average bahavior on this forum.

While I don't really think it's possible to draw a true comparison between forum members' conduct and the developmental stages of a game mod (due to their conflicting natures), I actually do kinda see what you're talking about. In fact, in this case it's pretty hard not to!


I also find it quite abhorrent that even after Yatta requested we control ourselves, the childish and counter-productive exchanges ceased to halt.

Even if we can't handle ourselves appropriately otherwise, could we at least stop these hostile altercations, if only for Yatta's sake alone? I mean, he works his ass off to bring us this mother of all Duke fansites, and the least we could do is take his feelings into consideration by NOT making his job unnecessarily difficult.

Seriously, guys.

[Jimmy]

VinsaneOne, on Oct 24 2010, 01:02 AM, said:

You said that, in your own words. I give you an eye-opening example where it has happened, (the matter regarding TX and 3DR) but then, you'd rather say...
...I love how you edit my quotes in an effort to make it sound irrelevant. But your childish mind leads you to think no one has read my OP(s). That's where you fail enormously. Unlike other people here, you just avoid everything that's important. It's so obvious you choose to even ignore actual proof given to you by replying with utter bullshit like a little wuss cause you're not man enough to admit a point was made and clearly proven as being a fact and totally relevant. Learning to man-up is the lesson here. It will make you a better person and serve you well later on in life.

I didn't edit any of your posts. I quoted them as they laid. As for 3DR stealing parts of the JFDuke3D source code, yeah you're right, but it's still essentially their game. The issue wasn't whether they used it, because I'm pretty sure they could have done so, but the problem is that they removed proper credits from folks, whether it was an oversight or on purpose however, I have no idea. Besides, Captain Asshole is not an insult.

And TeaMonster, I sincerely doubt this mod has a larger team than DNF, and you can't say for sure the engine is better. You must remember that 3DR rewrote most of it.

[DavoX]

Ok here are my thoughts about this:

The screenshots are indeer VERY early. The creator even explicitly said so. Me being a veteran mapper and experienced in UT3 mapping I really don't understand how those screenshots made such a revolution.

The screenshots got comments like "Incredible" or "Really impressive". Which they definitely aren't. They are early I KNOW, don't remind me of that. That's not the point.

Look at this made by fresch:



Then look at this made by an experienced mapper for UT3:



See the difference? If you get into the Epic games forums with the first screenshot, were everyone is a mapper, they KNOW what is good or bad. I don't think anyone that is just a gamer can comment on how "Insanely good" the screenshots of DNNG look.


My thoughts? The mod will be awesome and will probably look great. But it will not be because of Frisch, but because of all the talented people that seem to join him. His visions on what is "EXTREMELY ULTRA REALISTIC" I don't agree with.

The best thing that can happen to this project is that Fresch gets off his high horse and listens to the feedback of the people that just joined him.

I see several scenarios:

1) He doesn't listen, he forces his own vision of what it should be and people with talent will leave the project knowing that nothing good will come out of it.
2) He listens to what people say and let the guys that know about stuff do their work, and the game is a sucess.
3) He abandons ship when he realizes that managing all of this isn't piece of cake. It's a shitload of work. Unless you hand that work to someone else while you're just watching in the background. Which would mean the project wouldn't be his anymore. Just his name pasted on the credits as the man behind the "idea".

Fresch, if you're reading, I really recommend you reading a shitload of books, not only about level design, but also game design. Play other games, not just Gears of war and Unreal Tournament as they are really grey which is not really "realistic" as you call it. Also don't just listen to the average gamer saying "HOLY SHITTTTT BEST GAME EVARRRR", listen to the critics, some might know jack squat but some know what they do, feedback is good and should be listened to. Working on the game industry has taught me this much.

I would personally help with the project if you had a different view about it. But so far I can't see myself getting into it. Maybe when future screenshots pop up.

Good luck.

[ReaperMan]

^

[MusicallyInspired]

Just as a note, I don't think everyone at Gearbox is praising it out of blind faith, but merely just being supportive. Like me.

[ReaperMan]

MusicallyInspired, on Oct 24 2010, 02:58 PM, said:

Just as a note, I don't think everyone at Gearbox is praising it out of blind faith, but merely just being supportive. Like me.

Some are like you but most are like "Gawd man its next gen with da awesome graphics and all! It'll be da greatest remake ever! durp! durp! durp!"

[Jimmy]

Being blindly supportive isn't a good thing, you don't have to bash his shit, but holding people's hands doesn't do any good. This "game" isn't shit until some real work is done. Davox said it best.

[Richard Shead]

DavoX, on Oct 24 2010, 08:56 AM, said:

Ok here are my thoughts about this:

The screenshots are indeer VERY early. The creator even explicitly said so. Me being a veteran mapper and experienced in UT3 mapping I really don't understand how those screenshots made such a revolution.

They made a huge splash because they DO indeed look amazing, in addition to carrying the prospect of a full Duke 3D remake.

Quote

The screenshots got comments like "Incredible" or "Really impressive". Which they definitely aren't. They are early I KNOW, don't remind me of that. That's not the point.

Apparently you DO need to be reminded of that. And that actually IS the point. The guy(fresch) threw together some very early, rough work just to show what he was capable of and it went over very well, because he obviously has an immense amount of talent.

Quote

Look at this made by fresch:



Then look at this made by an experienced mapper for UT3:



See the difference? If you get into the Epic games forums with the first screenshot, were everyone is a mapper, they KNOW what is good or bad. I don't think anyone that is just a gamer can comment on how "Insanely good" the screenshots of DNNG look.

First of all, I find it extremely demeaning how you differentiate "fresch" from "an experienced UT3 mapper". Fresch is extraordinarily gifted and could most likely get hired by any major game developer, and by putting forth no effort whatsoever.

Secondly, you are comparing a *very* early WIP to a polished and finished product. And on top of that, the former is a remake of a game from 1996, where level design was far less complex so the designer(fresch) had far less creative freedom in constructing his work.

From where I'm standing, Fresch did as good job as anyone could've in re-envisioning the rooftop of E1L1- an EXTREMELY simplistic game environment from almost 15 years ago- while taking as few liberties as possible.

Quote

My thoughts? The mod will be awesome and will probably look great. But it will not be because of Frisch, but because of all the talented people that seem to join him. His visions on what is "EXTREMELY ULTRA REALISTIC" I don't agree with.

WOW. You really have it in for fresch don't you? You have basically nothing to go by in terms of gauging his level of competence, yet you're already dismissing his ability to succeed? Way to be super-duper shallow.

Quote

The best thing that can happen to this project is that Fresch gets off his high horse and listens to the feedback of the people that just joined him.

"High horse?!?" WTF are you talking about? Fresch has been nothing but receptive to any ideas proposed to him and has shown absolutely ZERO signs of an arrogant, pompous attitude. Just because people seem to be unjustly praising him(according to you), it doesn't mean that Fresch has his head in the clouds. He has no control over what people make of his work.

In fact, considering the fact that he got a green-light from Scott Miller and Gearbox and was awarded a free license to boot, I'm surprised he's remained so humble and down to earth....after all, it's not every day that a fan project gets this sort of treatment from its higher ups- especially when you bear in mind that every single other similar mod had been previously shut down by the exact same people.

Quote

I see several scenarios:

1) He doesn't listen, he forces his own vision of what it should be and people with talent will leave the project knowing that nothing good will come out of it.
2) He listens to what people say and let the guys that know about stuff do their work, and the game is a sucess.
3) He abandons ship when he realizes that managing all of this isn't piece of cake. It's a shitload of work. Unless you hand that work to someone else while you're just watching in the background. Which would mean the project wouldn't be his anymore. Just his name pasted on the credits as the man behind the "idea".

I get the point. You don't like fresch because YOU DON'T WANT TO. This sounds like a classic case of sour grapes. Are you pissed off at yourself because YOU didn't come up with the ingenious concept, DavoX? Are you jealous and spiteful that your name isn't being strewn all over web in association with one of, if not THE coolest and most promising game modifications EVER??

I mean, you being such a "veteran" and "experienced" UT3 mapper must be devastated that this n00b called fresch is taking all the kudos while your so-called amazing work hasn't garnered shit.

Quote

Fresch, if you're reading, I really recommend you reading a shitload of books, not only about level design, but also game design. Play other games, not just Gears of war and Unreal Tournament as they are really grey which is not really "realistic" as you call it. Also don't just listen to the average gamer saying "HOLY SHITTTTT BEST GAME EVARRRR", listen to the critics, some might know jack squat but some know what they do, feedback is good and should be listened to. Working on the game industry has taught me this much.

Fresch if you're reading THIS, I really recommend you pay no mind to this joker and continue as planned. This idiot is making you out to be some conceited moron who hasn't a clue as to go about developing a mod. However, DavoX doesn't know anything; he is jumping to conclusions and making broad assumptions based on nothing, while only demonstrating how ignorant he himself is in the process.

Quote

I would personally help with the project if you had a different view about it. But so far I can't see myself getting into it. Maybe when future screenshots pop up.

So we're not good enough for you, huh? I somehow suspected you felt this way.... Fresch has the wrong "view" in regards to his project? This "view" of his has gotten him global recognition on just about ever major gaming website, with thousands of fans drooling at what little he's teased us with so far. Yet he still needs to revise his attitude before you'd ever consider joining our team? Tell me, DavoX, who's on the "high horse" now??

Quote

Good luck.

Backhanded, much?

[Frederik Schreiber]

I find this thread quite amusing..
To DavoX.

I dont know what problem you have with me, and where all the hate comes from.
But you clearly dont know much about the project, or the people behind it.


First of all - The original screenshots were created for George and Scott on a request..
I pitched the idea to George and Scott, and they asked me to create screenshots of what it (Quoted) "Might look like".

I did that.. The only reason why i posted the screenshots on the Gearbox forums, in the first place, was to share the idea with the community.


Second of all - Im sure every single team member, would agree on, that they have as much space as they want.
Every idea, suggestion, and decision is being taken collaboratively.

You dont know anything about my management skills, or methods - Or anything about the team.
I live off managing my own company, and have a BA in Management - But thats not the point.

The point is, that we have some EXTREMELY talented people on board, and the entire team is making one hell of an efford.

Im in no way the key decision maker on this project - I just want this project to become the best it can be.
And im confident that we can accomplish this together.

[Jinroh]

I thought it looked pretty good and was true to the source material.

[Fox]

fresch, on Oct 24 2010, 08:40 PM, said:

I find this thread quite amusing..
To DavoX.

I dont know what problem you have with me, and where all the hate comes from.
But you clearly dont know much about the project, or the people behind it.


First of all - The original screenshots were created for George and Scott on a request..
I pitched the idea to George and Scott, and they asked me to create screenshots of what it (Quoted) "Might look like".

I did that.. The only reason why i posted the screenshots on the Gearbox forums, in the first place, was to share the idea with the community.


Second of all - Im sure every single team member, would agree on, that they have as much space as they want.
Every idea, suggestion, and decision is being taken collaboratively.

You dont know anything about my management skills, or methods - Or anything about the team.
I live off managing my own company, and have a BA in Management - But thats not the point.

The point is, that we have some EXTREMELY talented people on board, and the entire team is making one hell of an efford.

Im in no way the key decision maker on this project - I just want this project to become the best it can be.
And im confident that we can accomplish this together.

Hey dude! The screenshots looks very cool.


I did not understand this thread... why does the replies looks more like George Bush come to visit this forum LOL?

People said a lot of stuff there. As far I know this project has come to "public" few days ago. Why does everybody complaints like it has been in 15 years of developments with hundreds of stories behind it?

fresch, on Oct 24 2010, 08:40 PM, said:

1) He doesn't listen, he forces his own vision of what it should be and people with talent will leave the project knowing that nothing good will come out of it.
2) He listens to what people say and let the guys that know about stuff do their work, and the game is a sucess.
3) He abandons ship when he realizes that managing all of this isn't piece of cake. It's a shitload of work. Unless you hand that work to someone else while you're just watching in the background. Which would mean the project wouldn't be his anymore. Just his name pasted on the credits as the man behind the "idea".

2 screenshots in 10 days and it already reached this point?

[VinsaneOne]

Captain Awesome, on Oct 24 2010, 12:17 PM, said:

I didn't edit any of your posts. I quoted them as they laid. As for 3DR stealing parts of the JFDuke3D source code, yeah you're right, but it's still essentially their game. The issue wasn't whether they used it, because I'm pretty sure they could have done so, but the problem is that they removed proper credits from folks, whether it was an oversight or on purpose however, I have no idea. Besides, Captain Asshole is not an insult.

And TeaMonster, I sincerely doubt this mod has a larger team than DNF, and you can't say for sure the engine is better. You must remember that 3DR rewrote most of it.

I never like going head-to-head with anyone over differences in opinions the way we did. Hope we can leave all that un-necessary crap behind us. Being able to share our thoughts like we have in this post, shows we're better than that and we'll get along just fine from here on in.

[----]

DavoX, on Oct 24 2010, 08:56 AM, said:

Then look at this made by an experienced mapper for UT3:
http://cbp.beyondunreal.com/files/screensh...3-octopus-1.jpg

As long as DNNG doesn't look as boring and generic as the image above I am fine with it.

Seriously, every 2nd map for UT3 looked like that (sometimes they were a bit more green ... but still using the same assets).

Remove all the small overused (because retail but nice looking) lightsources and you still have the same architecture consisting of overused assets ... but now looking boring. Because that's what it actually is: A boring UT3 map.

[----]

William Gee, on Oct 14 2010, 07:31 PM, said:

The reason they gave it the green light is because they know its pointless and will be long forgotten after people start the DN3D remake in DNF next year.

From a GBX employee a few minutes ago:

"You are assuming mod/editor tools will be released with DNF. If not, it won't be so easy (or even possible) to make a total conversion like Duke3D using the DNF engine and assets."

http://gbxforums.gearboxsoftware.com/showp...amp;postcount=4

[ReaperMan]

fuegerstef, on Oct 25 2010, 09:28 AM, said:

"You are assuming mod/editor tools will be released with DNF. If not, it won't be so easy (or even possible) to make a total conversion like Duke3D using the DNF engine and assets."

If they don't they will have alot of angry people.

[----]

ReaperMan, on Oct 25 2010, 09:46 AM, said:

If they don't they will have alot of angry people.

Yep. It means we are stuck with the 2 weapon gameplay which made a lot of people angry already.


What if GBX gave them the UDK license to compensate the lack of modding tools in DNF?

[ReaperMan]

fuegerstef, on Oct 25 2010, 01:50 PM, said:

What if GBX gave them the UDK license to compensate the lack of modding tools in DNF?

Well we don't know if they are going to have modding tools yet, let alone the game so lets see what happens.

[blackharted]

VinsaneOne, on Oct 23 2010, 10:02 PM, said:

...I love how you edit my quotes in an effort to make it sound irrelevant. But your childish mind leads you to think no one has read my OP(s). That's where you fail enormously. Unlike other people here, you just avoid everything that's important. It's so obvious you choose to even ignore actual proof given to you by replying with utter bullshit like a little wuss cause you're not man enough to admit a point was made and clearly proven as being a fact and totally relevant. Learning to man-up is the lesson here. It will make you a better person and serve you well later on in life.

I agree well done, if anyone want futher proof of CA stupidness read his recent respone in the new "Goldeneye" thread.

BTW This:

EPIC WIN!

[The Commander]

ReaperMan, on Oct 26 2010, 06:07 AM, said:

Well we don't know if they are going to have modding tools yet, let alone the game so lets see what happens.

The ability to modify Duke Nukem 3D was one of the reasons it was so successful, if DNF does not come with tools etc it will have a lower fan base compared to DN3D now in 5 years time.

[Jimmy]

VinsaneOne, on Oct 25 2010, 12:46 AM, said:

I never like going head-to-head with anyone over differences in opinions the way we did. Hope we can leave all that un-necessary crap behind us. Being able to share our thoughts like we have in this post, shows we're better than that and we'll get along just fine from here on in.

I don't mind arguing, and I don't hold it against you or anyone for that matter.

[The Commander]

I smile whenever Captain Awesome posts something.

[Jimmy]

So do I.

[Hank]

fresch, on Oct 24 2010, 06:40 PM, said:

The point is, that we have some EXTREMELY talented people on board, and the entire team is making one hell of an efford.

Im in no way the key decision maker on this project - I just want this project to become the best it can be.

Then go forth and do. There is no tomorrow! All the best.

[legowolf3d]

fresch, on Oct 24 2010, 03:40 PM, said:

...Im in no way the key decision maker on this project - I just want this project to become the best it can be....

It's like you want it to be the best it can be, as long as a certain condition is met...
http://gbxforums.gea...ad.php?t=113214
You're insisting that:

Quote

We wont go the "Easy" way, and just use the DNF base, its weapons etc. Thats not our goal.

I think for the project to be the best it can be it needs to be a DNF mod - for reasons why see the previous link. Though I'm assuming that DNF will come with editing tools.

[Danukem]

@legoworlf3d: All your reasons for making DNNG a mod of DNF instead of a separate game really come down to the same thing, which is being able to use the DNF resources. That's a good reason, but you should consider the other side.

• To play a DNF mod, players would first have to buy DNF. That limits the audience, especially if DNF has a rating with an age restriction.
  
• There is already considerable momentum behind the project in its current form. Changing it to a DNF mod at this point would kill that momentum, because a lot of the work could not be started until DNF is released. There's no guarantee that a good team could be put together at that point. DNF might be delayed again, or it might not be a very good game and that might undermine people's motivation, etc.
  
• Making a complete game is much more prestigious than merely making a mod of an existing game. I suspect that many of those involved in DNNG are thinking about their future in the gaming industry, and working on a complete game will help them more in that respect than working on a mod.
  
• Having a lot of assets already made for you can be a blessing, but it can also be a curse. If something is not quite the way you want it, you will probably end up using it anyway because it's so much easier than making it from scratch. So you will end up using all of those monsters, weapons, and so on, pretty much the way they are in DNF. But since those all have a certain style, you will then be stuck with that style for whatever new assets you create. In other words, using the existing assets compromises your creative vision.

[legowolf3d]

[quote name='DeeperThought' date='Oct 25 2010, 07:57 PM' post='60596']
@legoworlf3d: All your reasons for making DNNG a mod of DNF instead of a separate game really come down to the same thing, which is being able to use the DNF resources. That's a good reason, but you should consider the other side."
The UDK version would make all the content from scratch... using any DNF content is seen as the "easy way".

"To play a DNF mod, players would first have to buy DNF."
Mainly Duke3D fans would be interested in the UDK project... i.e. people who would be planning on buying DNF. They might postpone buying it until it gets cheaper.

"That limits the audience,"
I think not including enemies, having lower quality weapons, lower quality interaction, etc, would limit the audience more.

"...especially if DNF has a rating with an age restriction."
What about games like "Grand Theft Auto 3"... they sold millions of copies I think, despite their age restriction. Also Duke3D came out 14 years ago... surely most people who were fans when it came out would be old enough to buy DNF.

"There is already considerable momentum behind the project in its current form."
Going in the wrong direction IMHO.

"Changing it to a DNF mod at this point would kill that momentum, because a lot of the work could not be started until DNF is released. There's no guarantee that a good team could be put together at that point. DNF might be delayed again, or it might not be a very good game and that might undermine people's motivation, etc."
Well some people think that a Duke3D type game should be made in both ways - UDK and DNF.

"Making a complete game is much more prestigious than merely making a mod of an existing game."
The initial goal is to make a deathmatch version of level 1 with an incomplete set of duke weapons.

What is better - having prestige, or more high quality weapons, monsters, NPC's objects, etc, that can be reused...

"I suspect that many of those involved in DNNG are thinking about their future in the gaming industry, and working on a complete game will help them more in that respect than working on a mod."
Well in Epic games the AI guy Steve Polge worked on a Quake bot mod, etc.

"Having a lot of assets already made for you can be a blessing, but it can also be a curse. If something is not quite the way you want it, you will probably end up using it anyway because it's so much easier than making it from scratch."
Maybe that's why fresch used existing textures and static meshes from UDK rather than making ANY himself...

"So you will end up using all of those monsters, weapons, and so on, pretty much the way they are in DNF."
But they're REALLY high quality remember... and I think it is better to have a complete set of high quality weapons than having unpaid people try and make an incomplete set of weapons from scratch.

"But since those all have a certain style, you will then be stuck with that style for whatever new assets you create. In other words, using the existing assets compromises your creative vision."
Well fresch was saying something about the game being what it would have been like if Duke3D was released today... and I think the answer to that is basically it would be like DNF.