[Jack]

Awesomebob, on Sep 14 2010, 07:52 PM, said:

This makes no real sense. Why would you nerf your weapons?

@Awesomebob: To answer your question, why not read the full text presented in my previous post. And explore that for a little bit. If it still doesn't bring anything to mind, then well I don't know what to say. Plus, I do believe that mirrored Cam messages slows down the flow for me too. That mirrored map toggle might be a good idea.

[Danukem]

A lot of the weapon upgrades require previous upgrades to work, so I can't make the upgrades individually selectable without making the whole weapon system over again in a different way.

EDIT: This paragraph was a response to something that you later removed from your post. Instead of damage resistance, there are several other things already in the mod which help the player to survive hits from more powerful enemies. Max health and max armor can be upgraded, and the player always starts the level with max health and max armor. Also, armor absorbs a higher % of damage than in vanilla Duke, and it is dropped by more monsters. The amount of health you get from health items is upgraded a lot during the game, so health replenishes pretty easily. There are also two levels of leech which you get later in the game and it helps a lot. Finally, there is "Death Rage" which is like having an extra life every level. I have found all of this to be sufficient, as have most other people, and I think that giving the player damage resistance on top of all that would make the game too easy.

[Jack]

DeeperThought, on Sep 15 2010, 11:12 AM, said:

A lot of the weapon upgrades require previous upgrades to work, so I can't make the upgrades individually selectable without making the whole weapon system over again in a different way.

Instead of damage resistance, there are several other things already in the mod which help the player to survive hits from more powerful enemies. Max health and max armor can be upgraded, and the player always starts the level with max health and max armor. Also, armor absorbs a higher % of damage than in vanilla Duke, and it is dropped by more monsters. The amount of health you get from health items is upgraded a lot during the game, so health replenishes pretty easily. There are also two levels of leech which you get later in the game and it helps a lot. Finally, there is "Death Rage" which is like having an extra life every level. I have found all of this to be sufficient, as have most other people, and I think that giving the player damage resistance on top of all that would make the game too easy.

Well knowing what a developer has to go through, I will stop suggesting a weapons upgrade toggle. Sorry I said too much.
And I'll take into collecting more health and armor upgrades from now on.

[vinwij]

I've just been playing Attrition for a while, and though the idea is excellent, I have a hard time appreciating some levels. Especially some cave I played in and some sort of a base in which you start in a room with some crates and a forklift truck. There is just too little flow in those levels. I spent more time searching than shooting, and if I want to play a good old searching game, I'll boot up the excellent hexen I.

Other than that, the concept is really cool, so I'm definitly continuing! Keep it up!

[bullerbullerseven]

 vinwij, on Oct 4 2010, 11:34 PM, said:

I've just been playing Attrition for a while, and though the idea is excellent, I have a hard time appreciating some levels. Especially some cave I played in and some sort of a base in which you start in a room with some crates and a forklift truck. There is just too little flow in those levels. I spent more time searching than shooting, and if I want to play a good old searching game, I'll boot up the excellent hexen I.

Other than that, the concept is really cool, so I'm definitly continuing! Keep it up!

too many user maps in this game are about finding a crack in the wall >.> what i like is big rooms with challenges, only like 30% of the maps in attrition seems to satisfy me

[Jimmy]

What constitutes a "big room with a challenge?" You sound really stupid.

[Danukem]

If you guys know of any fun, well-constructed and action packed levels that don't have annoying puzzles, then let me know and I will include them! EDIT: But they can't have custom art or code.

I have already found 5 more levels to include for the next release, plus there's a new one being made by Rusty Nails.

The fact of the matter is, a large proportion of quality user maps do involve "puzzles", and I use the scare quotes because they are more about observation than problem solving. For this mod, I do prefer levels that are more action oriented. There are many levels that I decided not to include because I thought the "puzzles" were too hard (i.e. buttons and cracks that are too hard to see, lack of clues as to where to go next in the level).

[Stabs]

yes iam not sure how ppl have managed to interpret the game as a puzzle game, seeing as you spent 98% of the game shooting aliens and 2% of the game pressing combo buttons, cracks are not puzzles, its something else you shoot that does not bleed, and if finding keys is a puzzle well doom is a puzzle game too.

[Danukem]

 DanM, on Oct 4 2010, 04:38 PM, said:

yes iam not sure how ppl have managed to interpret the game as a puzzle game, seeing as you spent 98% of the game shooting aliens and 2% of the game pressing combo buttons, cracks are not puzzles, its something else you shoot that does not bleed, and if finding keys is a puzzle well doom is a puzzle game too.

That is something I have pondered myself.

Of course, if a game supports a type of gameplay, then people are free to make levels with that type of gameplay So I hope no one feels the need to point out that people have the right to make whatever type of levels they want, because of course they do and no one is denying that. The question is, why did so many level designers decide to make "puzzle" oriented levels for Duke 3D?

One thing to keep in mind is that the vast majority of puzzle maps were made for vanilla Duke 3D by people who had played an awful lot of vanilla Duke 3D. Action in the unmodified game gets boring and repetitive. Hell, action in any game gets boring and repetitive if you play enough of it. I think the main reason that level designers turned to puzzle maps was to provide a different kind of challenge that didn't involve the same old action they were bored of. Also, Duke 3D has a more developed secretive side than Doom right out of the box. It's got cracked walls you can blow up, button combinations, the shrinker bouncing off of mirrors, and garbage cans that could contain any item, etc. Level designers took puzzle friendly elements and examples of their use in the original levels and then expanded on them greatly. Soon the puzzling situations became cliches to the hardcore players in the community, so level designers took it to the next level and piled puzzles on puzzles, not realizing or in some cases not caring that noobs were being left in dust.

Experienced players know what to expect and have developed certain habits. Some examples:

*If you come across pipebombs (especially a single pipebomb) look carefully for any cracks in the walls. Never use your last pipebomb on an enemy. Also be aware of structures, such as boxes, that are made out of sprites instead of sectors, since some sprites can be blown up. You can tell a box is made of sprites if you pop-up onto it instead of bumping into it and if Duke doesn't grunt when hitting space on it).

*Try jumping up on anything that looks like you might be able to. Jumping on that skinny sign post might be the only way to reach a ledge above, which might be the only way to access an open window and get the keycard inside. In some maps that window will look like every other window and there is no way to know you can enter it until you try.

*If there is a small opening (due to a partially open door that cannot be moved, for example) that you can see into but cannot enter, look very carefully for any buttons inside that you can shoot.

*Press use on anything that looks like it could conceivably do something (such as a cash register), and anything out of the ordinary (such as a wall panel of a different shade or alignment than adjacent walls).

*Do not assume that walls or sprites are solid just because they look solid or other things like them in the map are solid.

*If there is a monitor near an activation point (such as an access panel) that shows a map location, go there after the activation, or at least be aware that it's a place you will probably need to go to.

*If monsters spawn in an area that you had been to previously, you can bet that you are now supposed to return to that area. If that area has an access panel but you do not possess the card for it, it's likely that you were supposed to have the card by now but you missed it. This can happen if you stepped on a touchplate that spawned the monsters but didn't notice the card near the touchplate.

I'm sure there's planty more like that, but I need to finish typing this post.

[bullerbullerseven]

Captain Awesome, on Oct 5 2010, 12:35 AM, said:

What constitutes a "big room with a challenge?" You sound really stupid.

im not saying i hate puzzles. i love puzzles. i dont like finding a scratch in the wall that is close to impossible to find if you didnt make the map yourself. so i dont really want to call that a puzzle. its hard to include a real puzzle in a fps game :S i cant really think of one right now?

hehe all of those things you say are ofcourse right dt xD

[Jimmy]

I guess, but I wouldn't consider finding a crack in a wall a puzzle. Rarely is a cracked wall not destructible. The manual even states that these are the type of things to look out for. Rather standard fare.

[Danukem]

Captain Awesome, on Oct 4 2010, 07:16 PM, said:

I guess, but I wouldn't consider finding a crack in a wall a puzzle. Rarely is a cracked wall not destructible. The manual even states that these are the type of things to look out for. Rather standard fare.

That's true, but the problem is that some mappers make the cracks double transparent and small, so they are hard to see.

[Jimmy]

That's just the mapper being a dick then, and I would recommend playing a map by a professional like Kevin Cools, Geoffrey, MRCK, or something.

[Danukem]

Captain Awesome, on Oct 4 2010, 07:24 PM, said:

That's just the mapper being a dick then, and I would recommend playing a map by a professional like Kevin Cools, Geoffrey, MRCK, or something.

That's funny because I was thinking of an MRCK map when I wrote that. His maps are awesome and he is surely one of the most talented mappers but he can be a dick sometimes

[Stabs]

Actually ive been making "new" puzzles just using prop sprites and dormant activators, add some quotes and you can do anything

also added a trophy system to DNE where you collect small statues of the enemies and thats how you unlock the shrinker / freezer and devastator in DNE, all coded in build only using quotes as external code, its a crazy gate system that accounts for variables, good 4 hours of coding but worth it and could be morphed to work for anything.

[bullerbullerseven]

Captain Awesome, on Oct 5 2010, 04:24 AM, said:

That's just the mapper being a dick then, and I would recommend playing a map by a professional like Kevin Cools, Geoffrey, MRCK, or something.

its funny how you call me stupid hehe. but this map choice would be dt's decision. but yea why the heck cant mappers make the crack fill the whole wall lol. its not like its more unrealistic??? or at least make the crack a part of the wall instead of only a sprite? is that seen before? but sorry i have no idea who those mappers are. i really havent read the names :S

[Danukem]

DanM, on Oct 4 2010, 07:43 PM, said:

Actually ive been making "new" puzzles just using prop sprites and dormant activators, add some quotes and you can do anything

also added a trophy system to DNE where you collect small statues of the enemies and thats how you unlock the shrinker / freezer and devastator in DNE, all coded in build only using quotes as external code, its a crazy gate system that accounts for variables, good 4 hours of coding but worth it and could be morphed to work for anything.

I'd like to hear more about this some time.

@Jhect: It's hard for mappers to be objective about their own maps. Things seem obvious to them which may not be obvious to others. And the feedback from beta testing is often lacking, partially because the beta testers are often experienced players who know all the tricks and can see small cracks from a mile away.

[bullerbullerseven]

DeeperThought, on Oct 5 2010, 04:59 AM, said:

I'd like to hear more about this some time.

@Jhect: It's hard for mappers to be objective about their own maps. Things seem obvious to them which may not be obvious to others. And the feedback from beta testing is often lacking, partially because the beta testers are often experienced players who know all the tricks and can see small cracks from a mile away.

thats right. but i dont really see any other solution than being better at mapping? its darn hard i even remember some of these situations in the original 3dr levels. also i was actually very close to finishinh a level that i foubd weird but fun hehe. it was about going through one room of all the levels of the 3dr maps, ofcourse with a touch of my weirdness so that it was very different from other maps. but unfortunantly i somehow managed to delete the map when i got a new computer i was also like 80percent done with my bloody palace arena level. if you have played devil may cry 3 and 4 then you would know how it worked. but that map is already finished again and i have put it into my mod

[Awesomebob]

Crack sprites... I've encountered 2-3 maps in attrition that just use these as decoration. This is a bigger dick move cause this wastes the precious little explosives you get trying to open areas that don't exist. Stack on top of that maps that MIX the elements. Destroyed building, use cracks to show this, player just stops throwing bombs at walls cause they get tired of them not doing anything. Then they have to clip out of the map because back yonder there WAS a working crack that you ignored cause all the rest where decoration. There's a special place in hell for people who do this >.>

In attrition; The value of explosives increases exponentially with every kill you make as the mobs get harder. This makes levels that ration explosives for puzzle purposes suck bad and get skipped or cheated through.

[Betelgeuse]

I just downloaded the mod, it sounds really fun! iv'e played DNWMD, but Attrition sounds more like my cup of coffee.

[Awesomebob]

Betelgeuse, on Oct 5 2010, 05:56 AM, said:

I just downloaded the mod, it sounds really fun! iv'e played DNWMD, but Attrition sounds more like my cup of coffee.

It's a fargin blast! Not as interactive as DNWMD was, but makes up for it in so many other ways. My only gripe (if you can call it that): You're pretty much capped at around 2million points. At that point even mechs posed little threat to me. This is alleviated by starting a new game! With so many levels, you're not going to see the same stuff twice.

[Betelgeuse]

Awesomebob, on Oct 6 2010, 01:34 AM, said:

It's a fargin blast! Not as interactive as DNWMD was, but makes up for it in so many other ways. My only gripe (if you can call it that): You're pretty much capped at around 2million points. At that point even mechs posed little threat to me. This is alleviated by starting a new game! With so many levels, you're not going to see the same stuff twice.

I haven't played it yet, but can't wait to get stuck into it after reading this. I also just got the latest HR pack, it's 3am here, i am going to be screwed for tafe tomorrow .

[Danukem]

Awesomebob, on Oct 5 2010, 07:34 AM, said:

It's a fargin blast! Not as interactive as DNWMD was, but makes up for it in so many other ways. My only gripe (if you can call it that): You're pretty much capped at around 2million points. At that point even mechs posed little threat to me. This is alleviated by starting a new game! With so many levels, you're not going to see the same stuff twice.

I plan to make the game's difficulty more adaptive in the next version, and also raise the ceiling on how hard it can get, for the reason you cited.

[Awesomebob]

Man, that sounds great!
Where you going to make map mirroring a toggle that's on by default? Also... Is there a possibility for making an alt-fire for the RPG that's the same as the rocket launcher in WGR2? That thing kicks ass! Would love that functionality with higher scores in Attrition :evilgrin:.

NINJA EDIT!
A question about mobs: Do they scale in difficulty as the level progresses, or are they spawned when the level starts based on the score you start the level with?

[Danukem]

I'm releasing version 1.15 beta

Download from the fissile materials page linked in my sig.

It will be about a week before I can work on it again, but please report any bugs you find.

1.15 10-08-10
· Added 6 new maps to the random missions (Duke 6_8, Asylum K, Cavern, Sunshine Complex, Drafted, LA-XXX)
· Added new and more difficult monster variations that appear late in the game
· Difficulty now adjusts somewhat depending on the monster/item ratio of the current map (easier maps have harder spawns, harder maps easier spawns)
· Improved explosions (thanks DanM).
· Liztroops sometimes have a jetpack malfunction when they die.
· Included an autoexec.cfg with some optimized renderer settings. This file can be edited or deleted.
· Fixed crash on load in Helltown.map
· Optimzed jibs to prevent slowdowns and “too many sprites spawned”.
· Changed rocket smoke.
· Fixed dead mech blocking bug.
· Fixed bug involving a liztroop too skinny to see or hit
· Evil Dukes can no longer spawn near each other
· Nerfed regeneration from steroids at high levels, boosted it at low levels
· Some optimizations for Polymer
· Megarockets cost 2 ammo instead of 3.
· Mirroring is now optional.
· Includes the latest eduke33.exe

I did add some nastier monster variations at the high end, but there still may come a point where the player becomes practically unbeatable. I haven't had enough time to test it.

[Player Lin]

Awesome, new version! Good Job, DT.

But... my high score challenge episode savegame... I beat it to 41th level with about 9000000 score now I must start it all over because new version, damn...

[Danukem]

I added the mirroring option to the menu, but I forgot to add the line of code that actually makes the new menu option do something.

So I am attaching an updated ATTGAME.CON which should fix that.

And as usual, I lied about not being to work on this for a week, though it is true that I am not on my own computer and can't do as much.

EDIT: I removed the attachment because I have attached newer CONs in the post below.

[Danukem]

There are some bugs in version 1.15 beta

*the map mirroring menu option did not do anything, as mentioned above
*Sometimes liztroops would become unkillable and behave strangely (I suspect this was related to the jetpack malfunction code)
*After about 10 levels, all pigcops would become super pigcops, instead of only a random % of them.
*Some newbeasts had the wrong color.

I fixed these, and I also made the HoloDuke bot more aggressive. He charges enemies and gets closer to them instead of always hanging back.

The new CONs are attached.

[bullerbullerseven]

ok the mirror funcition didnt always work? seems to still be random making a few bugs... didnt see any weird liztroops... the pigcops are extremely hard making the evil dukes being a sweet little enemy compared to these bastards... way too hard compared to all other monsters. seems that there is also a super lizman or what? the ones shooting really fast and has alot of health. there were also some super newbeasts but they werent overpowered compared to how little i met.

[Betelgeuse]

This is a great Mod, i lost track of time playing it and ended up half hour late for work the other day , i also got a few mates onto it, they think it's fun too.