[MrFlibble]

leilei, on 22 June 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

It has a linear voxel-like appearance coming out of the floor. It'll crash if you get too close to the edge.

I also noticed music fading out and restarting as I traversed this area.

EDIT: apparently it's been part of Build since early 1994 and it is called "Groudraw" and it relied on heightmaps.

A convmap4/5/6/7 later on that world one, and in the latest Build test game... we see a slope!

Groudraws were retired for slopes.

				Sector fields used for slopes:
					The useless groudraw fields, ceilingheinum and floorheinum,
					are now being used as the slope value.  They are treated
					as signed shorts, where 0 is slope 0, of course.  To enable
					slope mode, you must also set bit 1 of the ceilingstat or
					floorstat bits.

Looks nice on floors but I only saw it working with floors.

Yes, these things definitely look voxel-y, and they are very nice indeed

leilei, on 22 June 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

It makes me wonder...... where could Duke Nukem 3D have used groudraw floors? Obviously not going to be places with it as the entire floor, as groudraw is slow as hell.

Hmm, what about the fully 3D bridge in E1L01? I have no idea what it is made of, but it seems to have a different look compared to the "true 3D" objects in Dark Forces for example.

[Jimmy]

The bridge is just built out of flat one sided sprites.

[MrFlibble]

On the topic of preview screenshots, the archived copy of the Next Generation Magazine website has some shots for the preview of Redneck Rampage. Since I have only played the demo of the game, I can't tell how much those differ from the full game:

Screenshot 1
Screenshot 3
Screenshot 4
Screenshot 5
Screenshot 6
Screenshot 7
Screenshot 8

[Lunick]

I can only think of the scattergun looking different there.

[Mikko Pekkola]

MrFlibble, on 23 June 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

On the topic of preview screenshots, the archived copy of the Next Generation Magazine website has some shots for the preview of Redneck Rampage. Since I have only played the demo of the game, I can't tell how much those differ from the full game:

Screenshot 1
Screenshot 3
Screenshot 4
Screenshot 5
Screenshot 6
Screenshot 7
Screenshot 8

Good find I've managed to check those shots out and they're really good

[TerminX]

I heard back from my contact regarding the flashlight looking thing... and he says he doesn't quite remember what it was, because it was only in the game for a short period of time. That's understandable, given how long ago it was. When I mentioned the possible connection to what became the nightvision goggles he did say that sounded familiar.

I sent him a list of a bunch of additional questions and told him to take his time answering them because I know it was a long time ago and he's very busy. Here's hoping we get some cool tidbits of information in a couple of weeks.

Maybe I should forward the same list of questions on to Ken... I know he's got some kind of crazy memory (he can apparently draw a US map with accurate borders for all 50 states from memory).

[Fox]

Could you ask if there was one point at which you was supposed to rescue the babes like in Duke Nukem 64? Because the map design looks like so (i.e. the secret in E1L1 has one, etc).

[TerminX]

Absolutely, that's a good one.

[Fantinaikos]

I doubt it is really possible, but... he also possesses an old personal archive with some unfinished/unused BETA stuff?

[TerminX]

Nope. People should quit asking that.

[Minigunner]

Fantinaikos, on 26 June 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I doubt it is really possible, but... he also possesses an old personal archive with some unfinished/unused BETA stuff?

TerminX, on 26 June 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Nope. People should quit asking that.

Yeah it doesn't matter if anyone at 3DRealms has the material or not. As long as there are legal issues concerning the Duke franchise, they cannot release it (even then, I doubt they would anyways for personal reasons).

[MrFlibble]

Fox, on 26 June 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

Could you ask if there was one point at which you was supposed to rescue the babes like in Duke Nukem 64? Because the map design looks like so (i.e. the secret in E1L1 has one, etc).

By the way, I've always wondered, have the captured babes as a game been in any way inspired by Halloween Harry?

And on a more general notes, have other titles published by Apogee serve as sources of ideas for Duke3D? There's no doubt about the in-house developed Rise of the Triad, but what about the aforementioned Halloween Harry, Bio Menace and Blake Stone?

Halloween Harry has the rescuable damsels-in-distress who are covered in green slime, a jetpack and a flamethrower.



Blake Stone has force fields, ceiling mounted turrets, self-destruct hover drones, and a "sort of" teleporting enemy. Also, the security guards in blue uniforms are shown to have been called "rent-a-cop"s on the pre-release screenshots.

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

As long as there are legal issues concerning the Duke franchise, they cannot release it (even then, I doubt they would anyways for personal reasons).

Actually, I can hardly imagine what those "legal reasons" are - unless this is somehow related to recent licensing issues that have to do with Gearbox, of which I have only a vague notion. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason not to make pre-release stuff available (except if it is a full pre-release build of the game that more or less equals the commercial version, of course), if all of that beta material is licensed properly. After all, they did release LameDuke, didn't they?

[Minigunner]

They released LameDuke as a 1-year-anniversary gift to the fans (it was also the closest build they had to one year before Duke3D's release). Also, you do know that Joe has shut down beta-recreation projects that have been posted on the 3DR forums before, right?

[Micky C]

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

They released LameDuke as a 1-year-anniversary gift to the fans (it was also the closest build they had to one year before Duke3D's release). Also, you do know that Joe has shut down beta-recreation projects that have been posted on the 3DR forums before, right?

Things are probably different since 3DRealms was "shut down". Given that and their current major law suit with Gearbox, they're probably not uber concerned with beta remakes at the moment. Not that anyone's really tried doing anything that risky since that time so I'll admit it's hard to tell.

[TerminX]

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

They released LameDuke as a 1-year-anniversary gift to the fans (it was also the closest build they had to one year before Duke3D's release). Also, you do know that Joe has shut down beta-recreation projects that have been posted on the 3DR forums before, right?

Ha, you don't have to worry about any bull like that happening ever again. The day anyone goes after anyone in this community for something like that is the day a whole huge can of worms that nobody wants to get into is opened.

[Radar]

Explain further. Why was it easy to silence projects like that then, but not now?

[Fox]

Because that was 3DRealms forums, while this one belongs to fans?

[Minigunner]

Joe was one of the people running the 3DRealms forums. This site isn't really connected with 3DR/Gearbox.

[Radar]

So there technically were no legal issues? Just Joe not wanting certain things on his board?

[Minigunner]

Said legal issues actually apply to releasing more beta material than just LameDuke, and not to beta recreations. Also, Joe was acting on behalf of 3DRealms anyways.

[MrFlibble]

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Also, you do know that Joe has shut down beta-recreation projects that have been posted on the 3DR forums before, right?

In shutting down beta recreation projects, 3DRealms are protecting their copyright. It's not the same as releasing beta builds to public. Actually, if say the Duke3D beta v0.99 were released officially, but with such a license that expressly forbade any use of data within the beta without official permission, the beta recreation projects would be removed all the same.

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Said legal issues actually apply to releasing more beta material than just LameDuke, and not to beta recreations. Also, Joe was acting on behalf of 3DRealms anyways.

So what exactly are those legal issues anyway? From what I know, it's more about the fact that for some reason, 3D Realms is just unwilling to make beta material public.

The real legal hindrance would only arise if the copyright to the beta materials was transferred to some other entity, like Gearbox or whatever. Or if individual artists who have contributed to the project had their work licensed so that it could not be released without their permission.

But if 3D Realms does own all the necessary rights to the beta Duke3D stuff, there should really be no legal issues there, just a matter of not willing to do so, which is their unalienable right.

[Jimmy]

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yeah it doesn't matter if anyone at 3DRealms has the material or not. As long as there are legal issues concerning the Duke franchise, they cannot release it (even then, I doubt they would anyways for personal reasons).

As far as I understand it, 3D Realms owns all materials relating to Duke3D.

MrFlibble, on 26 June 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

Blake Stone has force fields, ceiling mounted turrets, self-destruct hover drones, and a "sort of" teleporting enemy. Also, the security guards in blue uniforms are shown to have been called "rent-a-cop"s on the pre-release screenshots.

Just a note, I think you're from across the pond and I dunno if you guys call'em that over there, but Rent-A-Cop is a common negative euphemism over here for security guards.

Radar, on 26 June 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

So there technically were no legal issues? Just Joe not wanting certain things on his board?

Pretty much. Joe was full of shit. He had all kinds of shit shut down that he had absolutely no grounds to. People were just scared "OHMAGERD HE'S GONNA TAKE ME TO COURT OVER A MODIFICATION FOR A FIFTEEN YEAR OLD GAME!" People are gullible and easily scared, and ol' Joe knew that.

[MrFlibble]

Jimmy, on 27 June 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Just a note, I think you're from across the pond and I dunno if you guys call'em that over there, but Rent-A-Cop is a common negative euphemism over here for security guards.

Yes, I didn't know it's a common phrase, thanks! Anyway, I think it still could be some sort of inspiration for the Pig Cops.

Another thing I forgot about Blake Stone: STAR Troopers will sometimes drop on the floor, but then get up again after some time. This feature was later used with Lightning Guards in Rise of the Triad. Unlike ROTT and Duke3D though, the unconscious STAR Trooper uses a different sprite and can thus be identified by the player (you can't do anything about them in this state though, and have to wait until they get back up).

Also, I think Blake Stone is the first FPS game to use randomized pickup drops from enemies. Human guards may drop used ammo packs or food tokens (or nothing at all); also they will drop a weapon type that you don't have, but that mechanic is the same as in Wolfenstein 3-D. Used ammo packs are visually different from new ones BTW, in that a new pack has two green lights on it, while a used one has one red light instead of green. Also, I've never bothered to check really but IIRC the documentation says that the amount of charges in a used ammo pack depends on how many shots that enemy fired.

[leilei]

Would you go further to claim how Duke Nukem Forever recycles Ken's Labyrinth?

[MrFlibble]

Well, there are drinking fountains in Ken's Labyrinth, and the art is almost the same as in Duke3D, so yeah.

I haven't played much further Ken's Labyrinth than the beginning of level two so I can't come up with more examples. There are bats there, much like in LameDuke but bats are generally an overused trope and they haven't made it to the final game anyway.

BTW, a slot machine (like in Ken's Labyrinth level one) would actually fit so well with the Duke3D setting. Well, we have the pool table so there's nothing to complain about

[Fox]

To think about it now, it's quite a surprise that there isn't a slot macine in Duke 3D. It should have been relatively easy to include one.

[MrFlibble]

Perhaps it's the question of what would serve as tokens - otherwise there's not real challenge in such a machine.

A similar thing would be the Pachinko machines that are found in the first level of Shadow Warrior, but they only work so as there's a certain chance of winning and getting an extra item (unless a cheat code is used that gives a 100% chance of winning every time). On the other hand, with the slot machine version in Ken's Labyrinth it is very easy to get lots of credits by simply saving and loading the game if you're not successful. Which kind of takes away the challenge in the first place. (Except you'll probably spend some time with the slot machine anyway, which will be deducted from the end-level score.)

[NNC]

Just another nitpick... the sequence of Death Row music (City Streets) have been altered for the retail version. The track can be divided into 6 parts, with one of them is an enhanced part. In the shareware versions the final part was the enhanced one, while in the retail version it's the 3rd part. It's not bad for the game, but in Youtube uploads people weren't aware of this and used the enhanced part in the middle.

[Radar]

I always found it interesting how the music in that level is in 5/4 time. I take it Lee Jackson wrote it?

[Jimmy]

Slot machines aren't really an Los Angeles thing. Remember, Duke wasn't a Vegas guy until DNF.