[TerminX]

 High Treason, on 20 June 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Why was the palette changed (after lameduke, before the final)?

Any chance of potential leakage of a beta?

Out of what content was made, what percentage was cut?

That's all I can think of.

Let's keep the questions to those which are non-obvious and about specific things. I can answer the first two myself: 1) because they wanted to change the appearance of the game to appear less cartoonish, and 2) no. The third question really depends on your definition of "cut"... does it only include content that was removed after being more or less finalized, or does it include content that was lacking in quality and turned into something else/outright replaced entirely? Do ideas that were experimented with and found not to work out very well early on count as cut, or just stuff that looked like it could have been part of a shipping product? It's a pretty broad scope.

[High Treason]

Aye, I should have been more specific. In short, things that were implemented in the game to some degree but then removed completely, for some reason I was thinking mostly of levels and pieces of levels that were removed. The palette I ain't so sure of though, I would argue that the old one (post lameduke) looked better, but that's a matter of preference and the brighter colors could indeed be seen as cartoonish, I supposed coming from the EGA days they probably went out of their way to make the game as VGA-looking as possible with more gritty colors.

On the obvious side of things; @Cage; Sure that's an anglehead flashlight, they were commonly used by the military.



I found a few more chunks of stuff in 0.99;

E1L2 from above, a few differences. Still retains some things we saw in the stuff Darkus found though is clearly a much later revision. The shot witht he "All work and no play" from earlier has a red "A" tagged like a camera (0,300) in it, this may mean nothing, otherwise the sprite may have changed tile since that part was made (Where was it in Lameduke?)


Another unused area in E1L2, seems like it may have connected to near where the Duke Burger is in the N64 version, presumably a blastable wall would allow access. Contails loads of Liztroops and some ammo. Speaking of the N64, the fire station reminds me of the grocery store in the N64 version of E1L1.


Pieces of E1L5, the round piece was likely for copy/pasting in the battlelord arena, the othe piece at the edge of the screen contains an octabrain and a door with shotgun ammo behind it.




This may be in the final... Can't remember nor do I have access right now. Made me chuckle though as the only thing I know SUYT to stand for is "Show us your t*ts" - levelord must have been feeling a little frustrated that day.

[Jimmy]

 TerminX, on 20 June 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Anyone have any questions for an unnamed insider who was heavily involved in the production of the game?

Whatever happened to the planned patch after Atomic Edition?
Is there any way we could convince 3DR to release those tidbits? Dirk Jones finished voxels for quite a few sprites in the game.

I know you said betas couldn't be released, but are there any assets that could be released, similarly to how the discarded Pig Cop animation was released a while ago? Something like the early 'royal' Enforcer would be nice.

Is there any more concept art which could be released?

Why were the Snakehead, Scorpion Tank, and Organic Turret cut from the game? Is there anything about these cut enemies that we don't know?

Did the Laser Chainsaw ever exist in the game as a weapon?

What was the Sonic Resonator? How did it work? Did it ever exist in the game as a weapon? There was a pick up sprite for it in LameDuke.

Were there any weapons, enemies, or significant features that got cut from the game that we don't know about?

A lot of screenshots show levels that didn't make it to the final game, were these merely mockups or were they fleshed out levels ala the four mostly finished and released levels by Levelord. (Sewer, Sweeney, Chuckles, and Cigam) Any chance we could see those levels some day?

[TerminX]

Alright, I'll ask him some of those questions the next time I hear from him.

[Cage]

 High Treason, on 20 June 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

On the obvious side of things; @Cage; Sure that's an anglehead flashlight, they were commonly used by the military.

Yeah, I know it sure looks like one, but it just seems to me that both all available versions of Duke, and any other media (press blurbs, announcements, readme's and whatever) never suggested ever being a flashlight. Plus I can't think of a way to make the flashlight work in a sector based engine, unless it just alters the "VISIBILITY" value moving the black "fog" a little more backwars (Which is a pretty non-flashlighty behavior) or it could just display a transparent sprite lighting things up, but without any alpha channel or additive blend this is kinda tacky That's why I'm extra curious about this.

[MrFlibble]

 Cage, on 20 June 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

Yeah, I know it sure looks like one, but it just seems to me that both all available versions of Duke, and any other media (press blurbs, announcements, readme's and whatever) never suggested ever being a flashlight.

Suddenly I had this (probably wrong) idea when browsing through the magazine scans posted here that this "flashlight" thing somewhat resembles the Trooper's weapon. But this doesn't make much sense either, and the way the sprite is drawn doesn't suggest Duke is holding it like a pistol in the left hand anyway.

[Fox]

 High Treason, on 20 June 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

 Cage, on 20 June 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Yup. The most puzzling one of all:

What was that supposed to be:

On the obvious side of things; @Cage; Sure that's an anglehead flashlight, they were commonly used by the military.

The player uses both hands to reload, and we have seen screens where he is holding the RPG with that thing on the left...

[Jimmy]

It's probably just attached to his shoulder.

[Minigunner]

It's possible that the Flashlight was supposed to brighten the area by a couple shades and fully light up monsters and pickups. Thus, it probably got scrapped for night-vision goggles.

[TerminX]

 Minigunner, on 21 June 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

It's possible that the Flashlight was supposed to brighten the area by a couple shades and fully light up monsters and pickups. Thus, it probably got scrapped for night-vision goggles.

That was my thought as well. We should know for sure in a few days.

Some questions of my own, which I'm posting here so I don't forget to ask him: which came first, shrinker or expander? How late in development was the expander cut (it was mentioned in articles in 1995)? Was the expander a natural evolution of the "sonic resonator" concept?

[Kathy]

Since Duke3d had other shrinking elements I think shrinker as a weapon came first.

[NY00123]

A few things that have come to my mind yet again (although they may truly seem obvious) and may be relevant for the current discussion(s):

Apparently, Duke Nukem 3D was originally intended to simply be, erm, a 3D variant of the first two games in the series (at least partially). Indeed, LameDuke has the familiar coke cans. Reminders of that can still be found in the CON files of any demo/final release of Duke Nukem 3D. Furthermore, you do score points for stuff in LameDuke. A high scores table can be displayed, too.

Is there still anything left in Duke Nukem 3D (talking about its finalized forms) that dates back to the first two games? Well, let's see... video cameras, protozoid slimers (potentially inspired by the toxic slimes from Duke Nukem II) and turrets. Maybe there's more that I've missed...

[TerminX]

 Cathy, on 21 June 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Since Duke3d had other shrinking elements I think shrinker as a weapon came first.

Keep in mind that even major engine features like slopes were only added 5 months before version 1.0 of the shareware came out, necessarily dictating that levels like The Abyss--one of the ones where the player being shrunk plays an important part--did not exist until that point. The expander was mentioned in interviews prior to that, however. Since the expander existed before some of the levels which made use of the shrinker as a gameplay element I don't think there's any correlation between the shrinker's use in that way and at what point it was implemented as a weapon.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

NY00123, on 21 June 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Is there still anything left in Duke Nukem 3D (talking about its finalized forms) that dates back to the first two games? Well, let's see... video cameras, protozoid slimers (potentially inspired by the toxic slimes from Duke Nukem II) and turrets. Maybe there's more that I've missed...

Reactors. Granted, they only appear in a few levels in Episode 2, but they definitely played a role in the first two games.

[TerminX]

NY00123, on 21 June 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Is there still anything left in Duke Nukem 3D (talking about its finalized forms) that dates back to the first two games? Well, let's see... video cameras, protozoid slimers (potentially inspired by the toxic slimes from Duke Nukem II) and turrets. Maybe there's more that I've missed...

Aside from the general settings of Los Angeles and outer space (and the stuff you mentioned), there's waste barrels, reactors, breakable containers with items in them, "atomic" health, jetpack (sorta...), maybe some other stuff.

[ReaperMan]

But there are no coke cans.

[Hendricks266]

define COLA 51
define SIXPAK 52

Not for lack of trying.

[Fox]

TerminX, on 21 June 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

Keep in mind that even major engine features like slopes were only added 5 months before version 1.0 of the shareware came out, necessarily dictating that levels like The Abyss--one of the ones where the player being shrunk plays an important part--did not exist until that point. The expander was mentioned in interviews prior to that, however. Since the expander existed before some of the levels which made use of the shrinker as a gameplay element I don't think there's any correlation between the shrinker's use in that way and at what point it was implemented as a weapon.

I guess that explains a lot. The parts where slopes are used in Hollywood Holocaust aren't very important, and easily a last second addition. For example, the whole cinema could (and should) be sloped, instead there are some stairs in the entrance that end in a slope on the opposite direction.

[leilei]

Hendricks266, on 21 June 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

define COLA 51
define SIXPAK 52

Not for lack of trying.

Also in 1.00 shareware USER.CON

// Duke Health Sounds
definesound DUKE_OPENING_SODA   blank.voc          0   0   2   0   0

0.99's game.con plays that sound in its definition for COLA. Also there's a different "DRINKING.VOC" in 0.99 which may or may not have been used for the soda (but is used for drinking toilet water)

0.99 GAME.CON has a commented line about a tongue for the turret which was removed in 1.00

actor ORGANTIC TURRETSTRENGTH
 ...
//    ifrnd 8 spawn TONGUE
enda

Also while messing around, sloped areas in maps converted down to version 5 for lameduke seem to have a strange voxel-ish effect that makes them appear like some sort of really tall voxel 'grass'. E1L1's rooftop for example. Was Ken trying to make slopes out of voxels at one point?

[Fox]

I suppose it could easily have used the Steroids drinking sound.

[Jimmy]

I reckon the 'tongue' would be the little metal pedestal the turret sits on.

[leilei]

Or maybe the turret was THE organic turret and it licks around while idling at random just for added bloodthirsty predatory organicness.

I've also tried _zoo.map in Lameduke just to see what works and matches. Note that I merged in the 0.99/1.3d art files (for curiosity's sake on what tiles were repurposed for different roles)

[MrFlibble]

Jimmy, on 21 June 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

It's probably just attached to his shoulder.

Yes, I've thought about that too. In fact, taking into account that the game makes references to Predator in the form of the Trooper in the first place, could the shoulder-mounted (if it is indeed shoulder-mounted) thing that sort of resembles the Trooper weapon (the shot here with the crouching Trooper is what made me think of this possible similarity) be indeed another reference of this kind?

(I know it's just plain guessing, but anyway.)

[NY00123]

Comrade Major, on 21 June 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Reactors

TerminX, on 21 June 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

waste barrels, reactors, breakable containers with items in them, "atomic" health, jetpack (sorta...)

- How have I missed the atomic health?
- Good point about the reactors, now that I think about it...
- Waste barrels: Ah, these static things from Duke Nukem/Nukum I seem to be relevant.
- I've been a bit unsure, regarding the breakable containers with the items. I guess they're just more "realistic" in Duke Nukem 3D.

[Micky C]

leilei, on 21 June 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Also while messing around, sloped areas in maps converted down to version 5 for lameduke seem to have a strange voxel-ish effect that makes them appear like some sort of really tall voxel 'grass'. E1L1's rooftop for example. Was Ken trying to make slopes out of voxels at one point?

I doubt it, Ken didn't start putting voxels into build until after Duke 3D. Sector based slopes would be more flexible as well IMO. Also, even if you had the voxels, getting proper clipping for the player's movement along slopes would have to be implemented as well. As far as I'm aware, before eduke32's clipshapes came along, all 3D sprites did their blocking according to a spherical shape.

Anyway, could you show a picture of this?

[leilei]

It has a linear voxel-like appearance coming out of the floor. It'll crash if you get too close to the edge.

I also noticed music fading out and restarting as I traversed this area.

EDIT: apparently it's been part of Build since early 1994 and it is called "Groudraw" and it relied on heightmaps.

A convmap4/5/6/7 later on that world one, and in the latest Build test game... we see a slope!

Groudraws were retired for slopes.

				Sector fields used for slopes:
					The useless groudraw fields, ceilingheinum and floorheinum,
					are now being used as the slope value.  They are treated
					as signed shorts, where 0 is slope 0, of course.  To enable
					slope mode, you must also set bit 1 of the ceilingstat or
					floorstat bits.

Looks nice on floors but I only saw it working with floors.

Maybe Ken could shed some light on this groudraw stuff. I didn't see any use of it in any games prior to Duke3D since ... well, it is indeed crashy:

			  G = Make the floor of the given sector have a Groudraw
					(floor with height mapping).  I do not recommend using this
					attribute very extensively yet. (See the H key for selecting
					the height map)

It makes me wonder...... where could Duke Nukem 3D have used groudraw floors? Obviously not going to be places with it as the entire floor, as groudraw is slow as hell.

[Mikko Pekkola]

Those scans are a very good find lots of interesting stuff in them (skybox, HUD, flamethrower etc.)

[Micky C]

I'm still a bit confused about what this groudraw is or how it works. How do heightmaps work in build? This sounds like interesting stuff.

[Fox]

 Micky C, on 22 June 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

As far as I'm aware, before eduke32's clipshapes came along, all 3D sprites did their blocking according to a spherical shape.

No, sprites are not just square in Build, but the clipboxes are aligned 90º regardless of the angle of the sprite.

[NNC]

 E1L2+.rar (28.54K)
Number of downloads: 909

Just a little "could have been" version of E1L2 with all those removed good things including hidden starting location. The Redrum reference somehow doesn't appear along with the drunk joke, that viewscreen doesn't let two areas to show... and pls don't blame me for the lack of texture 346. It stinks.