[Jimmy]

Darkus, on 18 June 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Player One P095

It looks like there was originally supposed to be a more post-apocalyptic setting. If you look at the E1L2 screenshot in the bottom right, you skyline has the Hollywood sign, but it looks more like Hollywood is in some kind of desert now.

Darkus, on 18 June 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Player One P096

Looks like the game was meant to be gorier pretty far into development (finalized Pigcop sprite in the screenshot.) You can see there is an extra gib, I think from RotT. It's just like a generic organ or something.

Darkus, on 18 June 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Page 53(Showing weapons. Including the flamethrower. Notice also the shrinker explosion sprite is rotated horizontally)

The shotgun sprite is abhorrent. The screenshot with the flamethrower confirms my post-apocalyptic theory. That building in the background is heavily damaged.



High Treason, the boards won't let me send you a PM. Could you email me that video you cut together? (That way I can have it in the best quality possible, YouTube is balls. I'm gonna put it in my archive.)

blitznukem[AT]gmail[DOT]com

[Hendricks266]

LAW, on 19 June 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

1) What versions before 1.3D are available for download and what are the major things in them?
2) Are these unreleased things playable (DosBox, Eduke)?

• LameDuke
  
• shareware v0.99 (leaked)
  
• shareware v1.0
  
• shareware v1.1
  
• shareware post-v1.1 Computer Gaming World one-level demo
  
• shareware v1.3D

EDuke32 and Mapster32 sort of support them but to get the full scope of the prototype beyond just the map files you'll need to run them in DOSBox.

LAW, on 19 June 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

3) Some people (including Hendricks) tried to make a mods out of these unreleased things. How many of them were actually released? (I remember something like LameDuke Deluxe)

I generally abhor the idea of making "beta mods". All I did was preserve a mod 3DR shut down called "LameDuke Forever" by FunDuke, which was a pretty benign package in itself: he just converted all of LameDuke's art to the final Duke palette and filled it in the gaps of empty space in ART files, and also included all the LameDuke maps converted to the modern V6 or V7 format (whatever is usable with JFDuke3D). IIRC he also replaced the RPG sprite with the LameDuke one.

[MrFlibble]

Jimmy, on 19 June 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

It looks like there was originally supposed to be a more post-apocalyptic setting. If you look at the E1L2 screenshot in the bottom right, you skyline has the Hollywood sign, but it looks more like Hollywood is in some kind of desert now.

Jimmy, on 19 June 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

The screenshot with the flamethrower confirms my post-apocalyptic theory. That building in the background is heavily damaged.

I noticed that too. BTW, the flamethrower screenshot seems to have been taken in what looks like a version of a level that is present in LameDuke - the beginning of Episode 4 if I'm not mistaken - the one where these shots were taken:




BTW guys, is there any idea of how much on those shots is the real deal, and how much is just a mock-up for the show? I've got this feeling that the "flamethrower enforcer" is just the same sprite here and there.

[Darkus]

Plagman, on 19 June 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

I read through the Joystick review and the only bit that seemed noteworthy was a mention that the Enforcer flamethrower made you catch fire.

Well, if you look closely what's written in the screenshot at bottom left, you can read:
YOUR BURNING! FIND WATER OR DIE (yes, it's misspelled)
http://download.aban...0Page%20075.jpg

Jimmy, on 19 June 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Player One P095
It looks like there was originally supposed to be a more post-apocalyptic setting. If you look at the E1L2 screenshot in the bottom right, you skyline has the Hollywood sign, but it looks more like Hollywood is in some kind of desert now.

Page 53
The screenshot with the flamethrower confirms my post-apocalyptic theory. That building in the background is heavily damaged.

These red skies remind me of those I saw in Duke Nukem II.

Jimmy, on 19 June 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

The shotgun sprite is abhorrent.

I think it's because they used another model in the HUD for the shotgun.
http://download.aban...ril%201996).jpg


I found some scans, but I think you'll recognize some screenshots that have been posted before, I have not found another ones. So I think that will be the last for now.

Gen4 N84
Page 48(official artwork, extended. Now you can see who is under the Lizman!)
Page 49(Talking of Apogee)
Page 50(DN3D Beta screens and Pigcop Artwork)
Page 51(others beta screens. Also some beta screens from Blood)
Page 52(Now interesting beta screens from Shadow Warrior.)
Page 54(Xenophage and Stargunner)

And finally, an interview with George Broussard, with some pictures of the 3DRealms staff:
Page 56
Page 57

Two last scans:

Those two screens seems very old, nearly Lameduke. In the second screen, look like the robot trooper is shooting a very long firelaser.
http://download.aban...0Page%20020.jpg

And two others from Shadow Warrior, especially the first screen which is not seen from the scans above.
http://download.aban...0Page%20033.jpg

[LAW]

Hendricks266, on 19 June 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

• LameDuke
  
• shareware v0.99 (leaked)
  
• shareware v1.0
  
• shareware v1.1
  
• shareware post-v1.1 Computer Gaming World one-level demo
  
• shareware v1.3D

EDuke32 and Mapster32 sort of support them but to get the full scope of the prototype beyond just the map files you'll need to run them in DOSBox.

Big thanks!

[High Treason]

Jimmy, on 19 June 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

High Treason, the boards won't let me send you a PM. Could you email me that video you cut together? (That way I can have it in the best quality possible, YouTube is balls. I'm gonna put it in my archive.)

I'm on it.

Hendricks266, on 19 June 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

...Links...

There's a one level demo hiding in this thread somewhere too, think it's from somewhere between 1.1 and 1.3... Here; http://www.knightsan...vate/duke3d.zip

Darkus, on 19 June 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

These red skies remind me of those I saw in Duke Nukem II.

I was thinking the same thing.

Edit:
Anyone realised that if you crank the volume up on the John Romero video, different sounds can be heard. The pigcop shotgun sounds a lot like 0.99, the underwater sounds a bit like the sound in Shadow Warrior. Seems there's a short one of the city ambience sounds too when Duke jumps out of the window.

[Hendricks266]

High Treason, on 19 June 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

There's a one level demo hiding in this thread somewhere too, think it's from somewhere between 1.1 and 1.3... Here; http://www.knightsan...vate/duke3d.zip

Thanks, forgot that one. Two edits later and it's fixed.

[Fox]

Jimmy, on 19 June 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

It looks like there was originally supposed to be a more post-apocalyptic setting. If you look at the E1L2 screenshot in the bottom right, you skyline has the Hollywood sign, but it looks more like Hollywood is in some kind of desert now.

It's not far from the real thing.



Of course the sky is burning, so it is a post-apocalyptic setting like in Lameduke.

MrFlibble, on 19 June 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I noticed that too. BTW, the flamethrower screenshot seems to have been taken in what looks like a version of a level that is present in LameDuke - the beginning of Episode 4 if I'm not mistaken - the one where these shots were taken:

Not at all. It's just the Zoo map close to the paralaxed ceiling.

Darkus, on 19 June 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Well, if you look closely what's written in the screenshot at bottom left, you can read:
YOUR BURNING! FIND WATER OR DIE (yes, it's misspelled)
http://download.aban...0Page%20075.jpg

From v0.99:

definequote 108       YOU'RE BURNING!  FIND WATER OR DIE

===//===//===

Edit:

[MrFlibble]

High Treason, on 19 June 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

There's a one level demo hiding in this thread somewhere too, think it's from somewhere between 1.1 and 1.3... Here; http://www.knightsan...vate/duke3d.zip

Heh, the fun thing is that this is the exclusive demo for the Computer Gaming World magazine - which was known to put exclusive demo content on their cover CDs. Apparently, they contacted Apogee and requested an exclusive one-level demo, but due to some kind of misunderstanding what they got was the shareware v1.1 that just quits after the first level (albeit the only self-running demo in this version shows playthrough of E1L02, which is indeed in the GRP file but not accessible). Which is kind of a shame come to think of it, an exclusive extra Duke3D level from the original developers would've been nice

Fox, on 19 June 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Not at all. It's just the Zoo map close to the paralaxed ceiling.

Oh, thanks for pointing that out! The red sky and the dilapidated building reminded of that LameDuke level somehow, since you can also destroy part of a building with RPG shots in that level.

Fox, on 19 June 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Darkus, on 19 June 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Well, if you look closely what's written in the screenshot at bottom left, you can read:
YOUR BURNING! FIND WATER OR DIE (yes, it's misspelled)
http://download.aban...0Page%20075.jpg

From v0.99:

definequote 108       YOU'RE BURNING!  FIND WATER OR DIE

Hmm, I think the same line (albeit shortened to the first sentence) is preserved in the later releases as well, and I think it's also present in NAM as well.

Speaking of that, I wonder if the flamethrower weapon in NAM works anything like the original flamethrower?

Also guys, with those shots of the flamethrower, would it be possible to accurately reconstruct the sprite (I don't remember any shots with the flamethrower's firing animation in the official screenshot packs)?

And one more thing on the same topic, do I understand correctly that the development of this concept was from the "laser chainsaw" to the flamethrower to the freezethrower? Or did the laser chainsaw and flamethrower coexist at some point as two separately available weapons?

Cage, on 19 June 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

Some others I've noticed recently:

Different scuba sprite in the inventory in one of the beta-presspack shots (name: D3d30.pcx)

Hmm, I just noticed that the shot on the right has what seems like the scuba mask that is near the bottom of the air tank. I assume that this is the older version, from the time when the mask was shown on the HUD when underwater:

[NNC]

A find in the v0.99 beta.

[Fox]

MrFlibble, on 20 June 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

And one more thing on the same topic, do I understand correctly that the development of this concept was from the "laser chainsaw" to the flamethrower to the freezethrower? Or did the laser chainsaw and flamethrower coexist at some point as two separately available weapons?

The original sketch of the weapon is that of the "Laser Chainsaw", but I have never seen an image of the game with the weapon in it. Instead all early screenshots have the Flamethrower.

[Come On And Slam]

High Treason, on 18 June 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Bump, consider it done;

(that super cool video)

Huh, I wonder why they left out that head-bobbing effect for when you use the Mighty Boot at 1:08. It looks pretty cool.

[TerminX]

Anyone have any questions for an unnamed insider who was heavily involved in the production of the game?

[Darkus]

Nancsi, on 20 June 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

A find in the v0.99 beta.

alicia-allen.jpg

redrum.
REDRUM!

It seems that the programmers intended to include more little secrets and movie references here and here in the beta... Here's the second one:

If you are standing exactly at this place and press space...


...you can see this:

Spoiler

[Cage]

TerminX, on 20 June 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Anyone have any questions for an unnamed insider who was heavily involved in the production of the game?

Yup. The most puzzling one of all:

What was that supposed to be:

[High Treason]

TerminX, on 20 June 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Anyone have any questions for an unnamed insider who was heavily involved in the production of the game?

Why was the palette changed (after lameduke, before the final)?

Any chance of potential leakage of a beta?

Out of what content was made, what percentage was cut?

That's all I can think of.

[Fox]

You could ask about the Chuck Jones models.

[TerminX]

High Treason, on 20 June 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Why was the palette changed (after lameduke, before the final)?

Any chance of potential leakage of a beta?

Out of what content was made, what percentage was cut?

That's all I can think of.

Let's keep the questions to those which are non-obvious and about specific things. I can answer the first two myself: 1) because they wanted to change the appearance of the game to appear less cartoonish, and 2) no. The third question really depends on your definition of "cut"... does it only include content that was removed after being more or less finalized, or does it include content that was lacking in quality and turned into something else/outright replaced entirely? Do ideas that were experimented with and found not to work out very well early on count as cut, or just stuff that looked like it could have been part of a shipping product? It's a pretty broad scope.

[High Treason]

Aye, I should have been more specific. In short, things that were implemented in the game to some degree but then removed completely, for some reason I was thinking mostly of levels and pieces of levels that were removed. The palette I ain't so sure of though, I would argue that the old one (post lameduke) looked better, but that's a matter of preference and the brighter colors could indeed be seen as cartoonish, I supposed coming from the EGA days they probably went out of their way to make the game as VGA-looking as possible with more gritty colors.

On the obvious side of things; @Cage; Sure that's an anglehead flashlight, they were commonly used by the military.



I found a few more chunks of stuff in 0.99;

E1L2 from above, a few differences. Still retains some things we saw in the stuff Darkus found though is clearly a much later revision. The shot witht he "All work and no play" from earlier has a red "A" tagged like a camera (0,300) in it, this may mean nothing, otherwise the sprite may have changed tile since that part was made (Where was it in Lameduke?)


Another unused area in E1L2, seems like it may have connected to near where the Duke Burger is in the N64 version, presumably a blastable wall would allow access. Contails loads of Liztroops and some ammo. Speaking of the N64, the fire station reminds me of the grocery store in the N64 version of E1L1.


Pieces of E1L5, the round piece was likely for copy/pasting in the battlelord arena, the othe piece at the edge of the screen contains an octabrain and a door with shotgun ammo behind it.




This may be in the final... Can't remember nor do I have access right now. Made me chuckle though as the only thing I know SUYT to stand for is "Show us your t*ts" - levelord must have been feeling a little frustrated that day.

[Jimmy]

TerminX, on 20 June 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Anyone have any questions for an unnamed insider who was heavily involved in the production of the game?

Whatever happened to the planned patch after Atomic Edition?
Is there any way we could convince 3DR to release those tidbits? Dirk Jones finished voxels for quite a few sprites in the game.

I know you said betas couldn't be released, but are there any assets that could be released, similarly to how the discarded Pig Cop animation was released a while ago? Something like the early 'royal' Enforcer would be nice.

Is there any more concept art which could be released?

Why were the Snakehead, Scorpion Tank, and Organic Turret cut from the game? Is there anything about these cut enemies that we don't know?

Did the Laser Chainsaw ever exist in the game as a weapon?

What was the Sonic Resonator? How did it work? Did it ever exist in the game as a weapon? There was a pick up sprite for it in LameDuke.

Were there any weapons, enemies, or significant features that got cut from the game that we don't know about?

A lot of screenshots show levels that didn't make it to the final game, were these merely mockups or were they fleshed out levels ala the four mostly finished and released levels by Levelord. (Sewer, Sweeney, Chuckles, and Cigam) Any chance we could see those levels some day?

[TerminX]

Alright, I'll ask him some of those questions the next time I hear from him.

[Cage]

High Treason, on 20 June 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

On the obvious side of things; @Cage; Sure that's an anglehead flashlight, they were commonly used by the military.

Yeah, I know it sure looks like one, but it just seems to me that both all available versions of Duke, and any other media (press blurbs, announcements, readme's and whatever) never suggested ever being a flashlight. Plus I can't think of a way to make the flashlight work in a sector based engine, unless it just alters the "VISIBILITY" value moving the black "fog" a little more backwars (Which is a pretty non-flashlighty behavior) or it could just display a transparent sprite lighting things up, but without any alpha channel or additive blend this is kinda tacky That's why I'm extra curious about this.

[MrFlibble]

Cage, on 20 June 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

Yeah, I know it sure looks like one, but it just seems to me that both all available versions of Duke, and any other media (press blurbs, announcements, readme's and whatever) never suggested ever being a flashlight.

Suddenly I had this (probably wrong) idea when browsing through the magazine scans posted here that this "flashlight" thing somewhat resembles the Trooper's weapon. But this doesn't make much sense either, and the way the sprite is drawn doesn't suggest Duke is holding it like a pistol in the left hand anyway.

[Fox]

High Treason, on 20 June 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Cage, on 20 June 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Yup. The most puzzling one of all:

What was that supposed to be:

On the obvious side of things; @Cage; Sure that's an anglehead flashlight, they were commonly used by the military.

The player uses both hands to reload, and we have seen screens where he is holding the RPG with that thing on the left...

[Jimmy]

It's probably just attached to his shoulder.

[Minigunner]

It's possible that the Flashlight was supposed to brighten the area by a couple shades and fully light up monsters and pickups. Thus, it probably got scrapped for night-vision goggles.

[TerminX]

Minigunner, on 21 June 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

It's possible that the Flashlight was supposed to brighten the area by a couple shades and fully light up monsters and pickups. Thus, it probably got scrapped for night-vision goggles.

That was my thought as well. We should know for sure in a few days.

Some questions of my own, which I'm posting here so I don't forget to ask him: which came first, shrinker or expander? How late in development was the expander cut (it was mentioned in articles in 1995)? Was the expander a natural evolution of the "sonic resonator" concept?

[Kathy]

Since Duke3d had other shrinking elements I think shrinker as a weapon came first.

[NY00123]

A few things that have come to my mind yet again (although they may truly seem obvious) and may be relevant for the current discussion(s):

Apparently, Duke Nukem 3D was originally intended to simply be, erm, a 3D variant of the first two games in the series (at least partially). Indeed, LameDuke has the familiar coke cans. Reminders of that can still be found in the CON files of any demo/final release of Duke Nukem 3D. Furthermore, you do score points for stuff in LameDuke. A high scores table can be displayed, too.

Is there still anything left in Duke Nukem 3D (talking about its finalized forms) that dates back to the first two games? Well, let's see... video cameras, protozoid slimers (potentially inspired by the toxic slimes from Duke Nukem II) and turrets. Maybe there's more that I've missed...

[TerminX]

Cathy, on 21 June 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Since Duke3d had other shrinking elements I think shrinker as a weapon came first.

Keep in mind that even major engine features like slopes were only added 5 months before version 1.0 of the shareware came out, necessarily dictating that levels like The Abyss--one of the ones where the player being shrunk plays an important part--did not exist until that point. The expander was mentioned in interviews prior to that, however. Since the expander existed before some of the levels which made use of the shrinker as a gameplay element I don't think there's any correlation between the shrinker's use in that way and at what point it was implemented as a weapon.