[Ravick]

Hi there.

I'm new to duke4. Actually, I use to make mods for (GZ)Doom, and I'm still very ignorant about the DN3D modding scene. I was looking online for bigger versions of sprites for a monster called "fleshwizard", and I found this: https://amctc.fandom...ki/Flesh_Wizard

I see it is for a game called AMC, which seems to be a TC for DN3D.

I've downloaded the game and a program called gfe in order to look at its files, hoping it would be similar to how I can browse files in WAD/PK3 files for Doom mods using Slad3, but I could not find the sprites of the monster. Actually, I couldn't find any custom monster's sprites, just some for the DN3D ones.

So, I'd like to ask:

First, is it ok to use these sprites for a GZDoom mod?

Second, if so, how can I get them?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Jblade]

These sprites aren't for use in other projects I'm afraid (AMC project leader here speaking on behalf of our artist)

[MrFlibble]

With all respect to sebabukeboss20, downvoting the OP seems uncalled for -- they did the right thing to ask for permission, as any bona fide modder should do. Moreover, I'm currently looking at the documentation included with the latest release of The AMC Squad (v4.50), and I'm unable to find any notice that would expressly prohibit reuse of the assets in other projects, so the question looks rather justified.

Would you have liked it better if someone just took anything they wanted and never asked for permission, simply "assuming" that it's okay to do so, since there appears to be no explicit statement to the contrary?

With downvoting, you're kind of rebuking the person for doing the right thing, in the circumstances (I'm assuming that @Ravik will oblige and won't use the Flesh Wizard high-res sprites now).

[Jblade]

it's just a downvote, he'll live lmao - the issue is more that he just downloaded AMC to take art from it rather than actually playing it, which is disrespectful whichever way you cut it. I've added text to the credits file regardless stating that permission is not allowed to use AMC as just an art asset resource.

[MrFlibble]

Jblade, on 02 June 2025 - 08:30 PM, said:

the issue is more that he just downloaded AMC to take art from it rather than actually playing it, which is disrespectful whichever way you cut it.

Don't wanna argue, but it seems a bit far-fetched to me to say it's "disrespectful". First off, you can't know if they won't actually play the game at some point. And secondly, why should interest in the art -- since the question about permissions implies that the OP likely did not use the sprites straight away -- be in any way "disrespectful"? On the contrary, it means that sebabdukeboss20's sprites have value even outside the context of the game they were created for.

I understand that you might have run into bad faith modders who stole assets from the project before, but I don't feel the present case is an example of that, or could develop into one.

And, for the record, I have to confess that I myself so far have spent more time looking at the sprites in the game more than actually playing (although I did not have any ideas about using them elsewhere, since many of them are derivative works based on images from commercial games). Would you now say that I'm "disrespectful" too, for appreciating sebabdukeboss20 work? I can further elaborate that I've not played a lot of the game so far because it was too resource-heavy for my old laptop, and currently I'm not in the mood to play a game where you shoot many humanoid enemies. It's definitely on my list though.

Jblade, on 02 June 2025 - 08:30 PM, said:

I've added text to the credits file regardless stating that permission is not allowed to use AMC as just an art asset resource.

BTW, I just thought hat maybe it could be a good idea to also add an explicit statement that you categorically forbid any use of the art for AI training of any kind.

[Hudson]

MrFlibble, on 01 June 2025 - 09:21 AM, said:

With all respect to sebabukeboss20, downvoting the OP seems uncalled for -- they did the right thing to ask for permission, as any bona fide modder should do. Moreover, I'm currently looking at the documentation included with the latest release of The AMC Squad (v4.50), and I'm unable to find any notice that would expressly prohibit reuse of the assets in other projects, so the question looks rather justified.

Would you have liked it better if someone just took anything they wanted and never asked for permission, simply "assuming" that it's okay to do so, since there appears to be no explicit statement to the contrary?

With downvoting, you're kind of rebuking the person for doing the right thing, in the circumstances (I'm assuming that @Ravik will oblige and won't use the Flesh Wizard high-res sprites now).

Yeah I gotta agree with MrFlibble on this one. It would have been easier to just steal this specific art and say to hell with you guys than to actually track down the home of AMC developers and then make the effort of sticking their neck out to ask a question. You're making assumptions you couldn't ever back up and to say they're being "disrespectful" is just a bit much. Anyone to take that much effort to do the right thing and ask is doing it the right way.

[Jblade]

I think you're both taking a downvote far too seriously (that I didn't give) the OP is long gone anyway and the post is over a month old now.

[MrFlibble]

Jblade, on 16 June 2025 - 03:11 AM, said:

I think you're both taking a downvote far too seriously

I'll be honest, I'm not as much concerned about the OP or their supposed feelings as I am about how all this might appear to an onlooker who is not involved in the community.

Guy signs up and asks what sounds like an honest and legit question, gets downvoted for no apparent reason. Doesn't look like a friendly welcome for a newcomer who expressed interest in a community project (even if said interest was not in actually playing the game).

Also it's a matter of common politeness to say something like "Thank you for your interest in our project and for reaching out to us, unfortunately our assets are not for use in third-party mods. Thank you for your understanding." It'd be even more appropriate considering that the Flesh Wizard is not a completely original creation, but appears to be based on the concept of a character from a Doom TC (the credits at Realm667 still falsely claim that it is from Freedoom but actually it's not). Since it has origins in a Doom mod, it would appear logical for someone to at least think of using the AMC version of the character in another Doom mod as the OP had intended.

[High Treason]

I'll probably attract downvotes for this, but if I'd turned up and gotten that response (and I don't care who did it - not like I'd yet know who was who anyway), I would have read it as "Hmm. These people are rude. Why are they immediately on the defensive? Did they steal the assets? Well then, I shall just use them and ask forgiveness later if someone notices.".
I've had years of people not responding and then the thing I wanted to use (usually photos in my case, not on Duke4) vanishing forever only a week later.

[Danukem]

Jblade's response to the OP wasn't rude or out of line. Literally everything in this thread after that point is caused by reaction to a single downvote. AFAIK sebabdukeboss20 doesn't normally frequent the forum and doesn't look at downvotes with a high level of seriousness.

In a perfect world, all creators would also be great diplomats and handle these situations without causing any friction. In reality, we are all human beings who sacrifice a lot to create this stuff without any hope of monetary compensation, and sometimes it gets annoying when you have multiple people asking to use what you have created in a project that is still under active development. You see a nice request on the forum, but what you don't see is various other requests and irritating stuff going on elsewhere that adds up. I personally don't think it's disrespectful to ask for permission even if it's for something that's part of a project still under development, but it can be annoying when you suspect the person is not really interested in your work other than for their own project. When someone asks to use my code, I almost always say yes, but partially that's because I suspect they will use it anyway, so saying no would accomplish nothing but make me look like a dick. So keep in mind, that's a dynamic we are dealing with too.

Anyway, there are topics concerning fair use, permissions, derivative work, and so on that are worth discussing, but I think starting a new thread to discuss them would be the way to go, rather than continuing this thread which was about a specific request that has long been settled now.

[MrFlibble]

Danukem, on 19 June 2025 - 01:59 PM, said:

sometimes it gets annoying when you have multiple people asking to use what you have created in a project that is still under active development. You see a nice request on the forum, but what you don't see is various other requests and irritating stuff going on elsewhere that adds up.

All the more reason to have an explicit note forbidding third-party use of the assets in the docs, which wasn't there until I pointed it out that literally nothing in the game gave any clue to whether the assets were fair game to reuse or not.

It's absolutely understandable to want the assets to be exclusive, but on the other hand, many modders don't have an issue with their work being shared and used (some are even okay with them not being credited, CC0 style), and there is absolutely no way to tell which is the case with a particular piece of work, unless the author specifies it explicitly, or you ask them. The former of course is more preferable, obviously.

Danukem, on 19 June 2025 - 01:59 PM, said:

it can be annoying when you suspect the person is not really interested in your work other than for their own project

I think this is a bit tricky here, because art assets or code are meant to be used in a game anyway, right? So someone interested in them in the context of the original work is, obviously, looking at them from the player's perspective, while another person who wants to reuse them in their own work is probably a modder/game creator. So you're basically saying that you're fine with people playing your mods, but not so much with fellow modders who'd like to borrow from you?

I can only assume that there's probably indeed a degree of competition between modders -- because from a purely theoretical standpoint, a modder who wants to use/borrow an asset for their own creation very likely does so because they liked it and said asset must be really good (and fitting for their purposes). So I would think that the desire to borrow is, in a way, an expression of appreciation for your work, very much like enjoyment from playing your own mod as a whole.

But then again, there are different viewpoints, and you'll find a good deal of quality content over at OpenGameArt (for example) that creators are willing to share absolutely for free, in some cases as CC0/public domain -- so they don't even care much if they will be recognized as the authors or not. On the other hand, there was that story when a Freedoom contributor requested all their assets to be pulled from the project, solely because they did not want their work to be reused by third parties in anything that contributor would think "inappropriate" -- which is not compatible with Freedoom's license that does not put any kinds of restrictions on asset use.

[Danukem]

MrFlibble, on 21 June 2025 - 07:43 AM, said:

you're basically saying that you're fine with people playing your mods, but not so much with fellow modders who'd like to borrow from you?

You are over-generalizing from what I wrote. I said it can be annoying when you suspect the person is not really interested in your work other than for their own project. You quoted the exact words so you should understand what they mean.

First, if I was trying to say that it was morally wrong or that the person definitely shouldn't have permission in those cases, I wouldn't have expressed it in terms of "annoying", which is just an emotional response and has no such implications.

Second, the words "can be" are not superfluous there -- in fact there are times when it's not annoying. For example, when I already know and respect the person in question (e.g. maybe I have worked with them on other projects), even if I don't think they have any interest whatsoever in the particular thing they want to borrow from, I'm almost always fine with it. It helps if I have also borrowed stuff from them. An example of when it typically *is* annoying is when it's someone who seems lazy and unwilling (in some cases, unable) to learn the thing they want to use and just want to copy-paste large amounts of code into a project that is largely a copy-fest. Even in those cases I typically grant permission though if the person has gone through the trouble of asking for it, and I try to keep my annoyance to myself.

[Player Lin]

I think the OP also ask the same question on the AMC Discord server because it was the same day, and sebabdukeboss20 just reply "No You Cannot" (and JBlade too) hours later. I don't know if it's the same person, the username is different, just one hour earlier.

So I personally just feel his downvote wasn't really meant be rude at all, but I failed to see why now people had problem with that(also being late), still agreed the part about it should be wrote into the readme file.

And the rest things...I don't know, but I do feel some over-reacting.

[Mike Norvak]

I just have one question: Can I play the original Duke Nukem 3D levels with AMC TC without buying the game or not?

[Player Lin]

Mike Norvak, on 24 June 2025 - 07:17 PM, said:

I just have one question: Can I play the original Duke Nukem 3D levels with AMC TC without buying the game or not?

No? Since the original assets (including the level data) still copyrighted, and you have to own the original game to get the data legally.

That's why providing modified original levels data for download was in grey area(and also illegal on some of games, like DooM Classic).

[dnskill]

Many people don't care what the creator wants and do what they want anyways.. Though, many creators don't care if their assets are used so long as credit is given. I get both sides of the issue here and feel that at least they asked and seemingly accepted the response, I don't see how that's disrespectful. Maybe if he said fuck ya'll, I'm using it anyways, I could see how that might be disrespectful but that didn't happen.