[Danukem]

Reaper_Man, on 14 November 2022 - 05:31 AM, said:

I know you're a smart guy, you have to see how your actions and principles empower bad actors to take advantage of your "free speech at all costs" mindset, right?

It's not "at all costs" but absolutely the extent of free speech allowed does allow bad actors to take advantage at some costs. I see it as a worthwhile trade-off and a check against the staff imposing their views on the members too much, which is what tends to happen when the threshold is lowered.

HOWEVER, I have a lower threshold than you think I do. For example:

Jimmy, on 14 November 2022 - 11:19 AM, said:

You will never be a woman.

It's one thing when people use a straw man argument because they aren't smart enough to know they are doing it, or engage in consenual ribbing, or use certain off-color words. But when someone is being a dick to someone else just for the sake of being a dick, that's not acceptable. It doesn't matter whether the recipient is thick-skinned or not, it's not something we should have here.

[Forge]

Jimmy, on 14 November 2022 - 11:19 AM, said:

You will never be a woman.

that's the equivalent of admitting you're wrong and throwing a low punch.
uncalled for and you're better than that.

[Danukem]

Forge, on 14 November 2022 - 02:16 PM, said:

that's the equivalent of admitting you're wrong and throwing a low punch.
uncalled for and you're better than that.

He's not, though. There has been a consistent pattern of behavior that emerges in certain situations. The fact that those situations don't come up very frequently doesn't mean that the behavior is out of character. If someone beats their spouse, but only does it when drunk on the weekend for five minutes per week, you could say they beat their spouse less than 1% of the time. But it's still in character for them to do it.

[Forge]

i'm not going to defend that kind of post.
we weren't discussing gender vs sex, or anything related
even then it's a cheap shot

jimmy usually defends his position fairly well and doesn't have to resort to that kind of tactic. most of his 'exotic' posts are aimed at admin, or the troll that's way out of line (which isn't the case here)

[Phredreeke]

Didn't you insinuate she was a pedophile?

[Forge]

Phredreeke, on 14 November 2022 - 02:43 PM, said:

Didn't you insinuate she was a pedophile?

i was told i'm old and my generation and values are dying out - I posted probably , i don't sexualize children and I'm not a pedophile - which is a take on modern society values and school curriculum


don't join the misrepresentation bandwagon and start finding things that aren't there, or just make them up as you go along

[Radar]

You guys know "you'll never be a [REDACTED]" is just a witty retort borrowed from 4chan? It was a humorous jab, not all that different from when we write with greentext or borrow language from other memes.

Anyway, it's probably time to stop engaging with this troll. Two of the most active posters on this site have already been banned over an absolute trainwreck of a discussion.

[Phredreeke]

I only saw one person get banned. ...or was Aristotle two-spirit?

[Forge]

Didn't Jimmy get kicked as well?

It's hard to tell since they are still part of the 'members' group, but so is aristotle.

I noticed that jimmy was on, then suddenly he was gone, but that doesn't mean anything

[Tea Monster]

The culture war is generally a distraction technique to take people's attention off the class war. Telling people that migrants are after their jobs and houses when in actual fact it was their boss who moved the factory overseas for cheap labor is just one aspect of it.

Due to the proliferation of far-right candidates with questionable grasps of reality (MTG, Herschel Walker), what used to be left-vs-right politics has more degenerated into the verbal equivalent of 'SummerSlam'. I mean, it's always had a trace of that, but now it's got far far worse. This may be very entertaining for political rallies, but you don't want someone who seriously believes in Jewish space lasers making policy decisions. You shouldn't be choosing to sell yourself down the river to own the libs.

[Phredreeke]

Tea Monster, on 14 November 2022 - 03:28 PM, said:

The culture war is generally a distraction technique to take people's attention off the class war. Telling people that migrants are after their jobs and houses when in actual fact it was their boss who moved the factory overseas for cheap labor is just one aspect of it.

Due to the proliferation of far-right candidates with questionable grasps of reality (MTG, Herschel Walker), what used to be left-vs-right politics has more degenerated into the verbal equivalent of 'SummerSlam'. I mean, it's always had a trace of that, but now it's got far far worse. This may be very entertaining for political rallies, but you don't want someone who seriously believes in Jewish space lasers making policy decisions. You shouldn't be choosing to sell yourself down the river to own the libs.

Probably the first sensible post in this topic

[Forge]

Tea Monster, on 14 November 2022 - 03:28 PM, said:

The culture war is generally a distraction technique to take people's attention off the class war. Telling people that migrants are after their jobs and houses when in actual fact it was their boss who moved the factory overseas for cheap labor is just one aspect of it.

Due to the proliferation of far-right candidates with questionable grasps of reality (MTG, Herschel Walker), what used to be left-vs-right politics has more degenerated into the verbal equivalent of 'SummerSlam'. I mean, it's always had a trace of that, but now it's got far far worse. This may be very entertaining for political rallies, but you don't want someone who seriously believes in Jewish space lasers making policy decisions. You shouldn't be choosing to sell yourself down the river to own the libs.

I whole heartedly agree that blindly following one political party is incredibly dumb and unhealthy for the country, but it goes both ways. Not all libs are created equal and quite a few of them don't have the people's best interest as their priority. You have to look past the jangling keys and shiny baubles of distraction to see what each individual candidate's end goal agenda really is.
One problem is they blindly serve their political affiliation and 'campaign donors' before they serve the people that elected them.
There's too much money exchanging hands for there to be much honesty and integrity.

I also believe in term limits for senators and congress people. 10 or 12 years is enough. After that it's almost impossible to get them out because of their purchasing power.
People forget that they're supposed to serve us, not the other way around.

[Phredreeke]

Yes both sides are playing the same game, to avoid what you just described. Democrat or Republican doesn’t matter.

[jkas789]

Wait, I know Aristotle got banned but did jimmy got banned as well? I swear I go for a few hours and shit hits the fan.

[Phredreeke]

[Reaper_Man]

I’ll repeat that I’m not interested in a debate on the merits of any given political system, much less any political party. I feel like I’ve been pretty clear about my own stance, and have basically said these 3 things:

One, people wrongly assume that if you oppose Party A, then that must mean you support Party B. This is not logically sound. I oppose the Republican party being in power, but that doesn’t mean I support the Democrats.

Two, disagreeing with “both sides” doesn’t preclude from objectively viewing them and deducing one side is objectively worse. I think the actions and policy of conservatism is more harmful to more people, and their rhetoric more toxic and hateful. This does not make me “a leftist”, and while it doesn’t offend me to be called one, it’s just objectively incorrect.

Lastly, I agree that there is too much focus on culture war and not enough on class war and on real problems. I agree that “both sides play the same game”, I agree both parties serve corporate interests, and any sort of thinking like that. This is why I oppose the right as a whole, as they almost universally run their platforms exclusively on culture war subjects. Telling me you're going to "fight wokeness" isn't a real platform.

Or in other words: if you think both sides are bad, then why do your opinions and support always favor the right? It always comes across as virtue signaling from people who are in the closet about being conservative.

As stated earlier, right-wing culture war in gaming spheres is particularly caustic, outmatched only by how laughably pathetic the complaints really are. If your support for conservatives can be boiled down to “because gamergate and pronouns in bio”, then you are ridiculous, and therefore invite ridicule. “The left got too PC and put a gay character in my favorite video game, so I changed all of my opinions about economics, social and foreign policy, education, social issues,health care, and systemic racism” - ridiculous. And as an outside observer, as I was accused of being, this is what the view of the Duke4 community looks like and what precipitated my initial reply. The response hasn't really done anything but enforce this. Again I don't think anyone has claimed that assessment being factually incorrect, only that they disagree about it being a negative assessment. If I came in here and instead complained about "the woke SJWs made the green M&M character transgender", would there have been 100+ replies?

Danukem, on 14 November 2022 - 01:50 PM, said:

It's not "at all costs" but absolutely the extent of free speech allowed does allow bad actors to take advantage at some costs. I see it as a worthwhile trade-off and a check against the staff imposing their views on the members too much, which is what tends to happen when the threshold is lowered.

Isn’t that kind of the same thing, though? “Everyone should expect to be subjected to racism, because that’s the cost of free speech on the internet”? Don’t get me wrong, I completely understand what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. I actually don’t even really disagree, re: imposing views via moderation strategy. I get it. It’s a no-win situation.

You already said you don’t wanna keep discussing the subject and that’s fine, I’m not trying to press for a response or keep this going. There’s just this common line of thinking online that toxicity, hate, insults, et cetera is both an immutable characteristic of the internet, and something everyone should be required to accept and “deal with”. That the “Modern Warfare lobby” experience is - not just is, but should be - the default state. People can say "well that's just human nature", but that's a cop out. And it’s not simply that I disagree with that, I think it’s terribly uncreative and itself enforcing a nihilistic cynicism that’s become incredibly popular in recent years.

[Phredreeke]

Look we are grieving the loss of our long time friend, give us some space here

[Balls of Steel Forever]

Jimmy, on 14 November 2022 - 11:19 AM, said:

You will never be a woman.

you will never be deserving of the term human until that thought process has changed.

[Mark]

Reaper_Man, on 14 November 2022 - 06:10 PM, said:

Telling me you're going to "fight wokeness" isn't a real platform.

But it sure is a worthy goal.

[Forge]

Reaper_Man, on 14 November 2022 - 06:10 PM, said:

As stated earlier, right-wing culture war in gaming spheres is particularly caustic, outmatched only by how laughably pathetic the complaints really are. If your support for conservatives can be boiled down to “because gamergate and pronouns in bio”, then you are ridiculous, and therefore invite ridicule. “The left got too PC and put a gay character in my favorite video game,

imagine thinking it's only a toxic right wing issue.


As stated earlier, left-wing culture war in gaming spheres is particularly caustic, outmatched only by how laughably pathetic the complaints really are. If your support for liberals can be boiled down to “because this game hired qualified people and doesn't check off enough diversity boxes”, then you are ridiculous, and therefore invite ridicule. “The right got too misogynist and put too many white male characters in my favorite video game, etc, etc, etc, etc.

it goes both ways

imagine mentioning gamergate near someone who has liberal leanings - and say it was a pay-to-play scheme between video game publishers and video game journalists -and watch their head pop as they call for an insta-ban

Reaper_Man, on 14 November 2022 - 06:10 PM, said:

Two, disagreeing with “both sides” doesn’t preclude from objectively viewing them and deducing one side is objectively worse. I think the actions and policy of conservatism is more harmful to more people, and their rhetoric more toxic and hateful. This does not make me “a leftist”, and while it doesn’t offend me to be called one, it’s just objectively incorrect.

and the liberal policies can be just as harmful. They attack constitutional rights, and just like the right, push policies that take away citizens rights at the state level.
they both suck
too many foreign investors are telling our elected officials what to do

[Phredreeke]

Please stop, this is Jimmy memorial thread now

[Forge]

Phredreeke, on 14 November 2022 - 08:22 PM, said:

Please stop, this is Jimmy memorial thread now

In memory of:

[Danukem]

Radar, on 14 November 2022 - 02:48 PM, said:

You guys know "you'll never be a [REDACTED]" is just a witty retort borrowed from 4chan? It was a humorous jab, not all that different from when we write with greentext or borrow language from other memes.

It turns out that some of us not giving a shit about dogwhistles and in-jokes cuts both ways then.

If an innocuous looking image is deemed okay even though it is associated with bad people, then don't be surprised if a statement that looks like a personal attack is deemed not-okay even though it is associated with a joke somewhere.

Anyway, if he's so smart then he knows what he's doing and what to expect. It's not like this is his first, second, third or fourth rodeo. As I said, there has been a long pattern of behavior, warnings, previous bans and so on from here and other older Duke sites as well.

Also I do think it's worth pointing out that no ideas about gender are being censored. You could start a thread right now in which you argued that the words 'man' and 'woman' should have traditional sex-based meanings rather than refer to the modern gender concepts. If you were civil and didn't attack people, I would defend your right to make that thread and argue your point, even if the topic or your stance on it made some people uncomfortable. And if people started attacking you personally, they would be the ones in trouble, not you (at least if I had anything to say about it). EDIT: I guess I should add, you or me for that matter don't actually have a "right" to make any thread, you have the privilege so long as you are a member of the forum.

But how can a person earnestly stating something they believe to be a fact, be engaging in a personal attack? (I imagine you or someone else might ask this)
Very easily, it turns out. For example, let's suppose I have met someone in RL and I know that person is conventionally very unattractive. Now let's say I am in a debate with them, and then out of the blue I say "You are physically repulsive to those around you." It would be an empirical fact that I honestly believe, but it's still a personal attack. Examples like this can be multiplied endlessly.

Are there cases in which it is debatable? Sure.

[Reaper_Man]

Forge, on 14 November 2022 - 08:12 PM, said:

imagine thinking it's only a toxic right wing issue.

As stated earlier, left-wing culture war in gaming spheres is particularly caustic, outmatched only by how laughably pathetic the complaints really are. If your support for liberals can be boiled down to “because this game hired qualified people and doesn't check off enough diversity boxes”, then you are ridiculous, and therefore invite ridicule. “The right got too misogynist and put too many white male characters in my favorite video game, etc, etc, etc, etc.

it goes both ways

This just goes to show why "both sides are exactly the same" is an irrational argument, and just replacing words creates nonsense. You're trying to make a salient point, one which I don't even necessarily disagree with. But you're doing a terrible job of it, I suspect because even you don't understand why you feel that way about it. You can't genuinely refute left or liberal arguments, because you don't even understand left or liberal arguments. It's just an emotional, knee-jerk reaction that's either been exploited or programmed into you.

Forge, on 14 November 2022 - 08:12 PM, said:

imagine mentioning gamergate near someone who has liberal leanings - and say it was a pay-to-play scheme between video game publishers and video game journalists -and watch their head pop as they call for an insta-ban

You guys realize that gamergate was 100% a psy-op, right? That it was not only planned, but completely built upon bullshit? All of the alleged bullet point events were either partially or completely fabricated? Like this isn't even a conspiracy theory, 10 years after the dust has settled all of the information is out there. The whole thing was a political strategy to galvanize and politically radicalize gamers "because feminism bad"? That's why the idea that people have based their entire worldview off of "SJWs ruined my video games" so laughably pathetic - they were played like a fiddle. A textbook example of "the useful idiot".

[Tea Monster]

I never really could care either way about gamergate. There were a lot of to and fro about who said what and what was meant. People seemed to be all riled up that the gaming press were corrupt. I've been following game articles for decades and knew from the turn of the Century that the 'gaming press' just shilled for publishers and parroted back press releases without any sort of real input or judgement. Having stated my position, it is ALWAYS assumed by someone that because I don't care either way that I support one or other side of the argument. Every single time. I don't know why this is, but it's happened. "The gaming press are corrupt!" I'm told. I reply that I'm really proud of you. Please tell me something that I don't know. "I KNEW you were an incel/cuck (delete as per your personal belief system)!!!!" is the inevitable reply. I don't know why.

I'm often accused of being a leftist. I've tried to explain to a person on this forum that in the Country in which I reside, being a leftist means being a card-carrying Marxist. A real red-under-the-bed, nationalise everything communist. In America especially, "Left" is just slightly less right than right according to the rest of the planet.

[Reaper_Man]

Tea Monster, on 15 November 2022 - 06:24 AM, said:

In America especially, "Left" is just slightly less right than right according to the rest of the planet.

The difference between the 2 major political parties in the US can be summarized as such:



Arguments that anyone on "the left side of the political spectrum" in the US are socialists, communists, leftists, etc. is so patently absurd that it doesn't even warrant serious response. It's really hard to express how deeply conservative the US is, but the easiest way to tell is by the reaction to the most minimal of actual left-wing policy being enacted. On one hand, people in the US complain about their tax dollars being wasted and not helping Americans. On the other, they will fight tooth and nail to prevent their tax dollars from actually being used to help Americans.

[Šneček]

I've gone through a few pages and it escapes me, what's actually the difference between the Post Thread and this new thread? Bullshit about everything and nothing at the same time

[Phredreeke]

Gamergate was real enough that the society of professional journalists received bomb calls over it.

Did the right wing utilise the thing? Hell yeah, but that was only possible because the “good guys” doubled down on defending a bunch of sleazy journalist wankers and a woman whose accusations would later lead to a mentally vulnerable man killing himself. I also saw how left leaning individuals were gaslit by their peers if they supported the wrong side.

This does not mean there weren’t assholes on the GG side though. FYI I think Ethan Ralph is a massive bag of shit, and have thought so since day one. But karma is a cruel mistress and he is now a greater laughing stock than any of the “victims” of Gamergate ever was.

To paraphrase bear rider daddy Putin

He who does not miss Gamergate has no heart, he who wants Gamergate back has no brain.

[Tea Monster]

Reaper_Man, on 15 November 2022 - 06:36 AM, said:

The difference between the 2 major political parties in the US can be summarized as such:



Arguments that anyone on "the left side of the political spectrum" in the US are socialists, communists, leftists, etc. is so patently absurd that it doesn't even warrant serious response. It's really hard to express how deeply conservative the US is, but the easiest way to tell is by the reaction to the most minimal of actual left-wing policy being enacted. On one hand, people in the US complain about their tax dollars being wasted and not helping Americans. On the other, they will fight tooth and nail to prevent their tax dollars from actually being used to help Americans.

To be fair, the Democrats have tried to put through some legislation to help people. They've attempted to control prescription prices and tried to put through the infrastructure bill to rebuild America's roads and bridges. They also tried to extend medical care to veterans who had been exposed to toxic substances during their service. The Republicans opposed all these - right after voting through a massive tax break for billionaires. While historically the "both sides" argument has some merit, recently, this is not the case.

[Reaper_Man]

Tea Monster, on 15 November 2022 - 07:21 AM, said:

To be fair, the Democrats have tried to put through some legislation to help people. They've attempted to control prescription prices and tried to put through the infrastructure bill to rebuild America's roads and bridges. They also tried to extend medical care to veterans who had been exposed to toxic substances during their service. The Republicans opposed all these - right after voting through a massive tax break for billionaires. While historically the "both sides" argument has some merit, recently, this is not the case.

All of that is true, however consider this: What if some of the people getting medical care don't deserve it? Also, because I will definitely one day be a billionaire, it makes sense for me to support lowering taxes on the wealthy. Lowering taxes on the wealthy and businesses will create a trickle-down effect and put more money in my pocket. I mean, this hasn't happened for the last 40 years we've been trying it, but one day soon it will!

Besides, lowering drug prices and rebuilding critical infrastructure is great, but the real problem we need to be dealing with is wokeness. I mean, I can't actually define what "wokeness" means, but what I do know is they made the Little Mermaid black and I don't understand singular "they" pronouns, and these are the most critical issues on my mind when I go to exercise my political power. Well, unless I have to go to any city, which I am proudly afraid of. I'm sure the veterans (which I LOVE and SUPPORT 🇱🇷 #americafirst) dying of cancer from burn pits will understand.