[Phredreeke]

 Cartaphallus, on 16 August 2020 - 12:50 AM, said:

1993 vs 2020. You'd think we'd made some progress. Also it's a matter of punching down vs punching up.

Do you lock your butler in the freezer too?

[Aristotle Gumball]

 Phredreeke, on 16 August 2020 - 08:07 AM, said:

Do you lock your butler in the freezer too?

Nah, but I gave him AIDS. What a faggot.

[Forge]

 Morpheus Kitami, on 15 August 2020 - 05:24 PM, said:

people over there really are hyperfocused on women getting abused for some reason

white knighting
soy simps projecting fake protection in order to cover up their dirty thoughts and desires
these champions of the fem are the ones that would rape a women if ever given the chance

[Jimmy]

If it wasn't for rape they'd never get laid.

[Phredreeke]

 Jimmy, on 17 August 2020 - 09:34 PM, said:

If it wasn't for rape they'd never get laid.

Rape is such a strong word. I prefer the term struggle snuggle

[AlieN1997]

 Jimmy, on 14 August 2020 - 09:51 PM, said:

The faggots complaining about Eric Harris' wads are fucking hilarious. He actually made good maps for the time period, and no, they were not set in schools or about shooting kids. They were just Doom maps. Also bonus lol at the guy complaining about NEDM.

Not Jabba is a massive faggot and I hope he dies of AIDS. Quote me.

Oh god, I knew an asshole that was like that. The guy was such a sperg about keeping his identity secret that he blocked me on PSN and claimed that "I" apparently was revealing his information cause I used to be such a troll on the internet in a few certain places which is obviously not true. LOL like that guy complained about the fucking Eric Harris wads and how much thay sacked yet he was the one talking about getting bum fuck naked in a certain state in the US and getting drunk all the time acting like an edgelord.

[Phredreeke]

Doomworld is angry about boomer shooters

https://www.doomworl...hat-it-entails/

Quote

I would hate for Doom to be labeled as part of the "boomer shooter community" as well

Man, I wish Sgt Mark IV would recruit Shadowman as a mapper for Brutal Fate. It'd be hilarious.

[Ninety-Six]

What a surprise. The community that on the majority cares more about making abstract art with sectors instead of competent level design doesn't consider the base game to be a part of the gameplay style it popularized.


I'd be shocked if there was something to be shocked about.

[Jimmy]

This is what happens when game communities are moderated into oblivion. It's feminization.

[Hendricks266]

 Phredreeke, on 09 September 2020 - 10:01 AM, said:

Doomworld is angry about boomer shooters

You could be more accurate than painting an entire website with a single stroke. "A Doomworld user is angry about boomer shooters, made a thread about it, and it got 19 likes and 3 pages of debate before being locked."

Not defending that OP in any way, btw.

 Jimmy, on 09 September 2020 - 11:37 AM, said:

This is what happens when game communities are moderated into oblivion. It's feminization.

How does moderation come into play? A fair share of the posts are dissenting views and they are not being silenced, other than the thread as a whole being locked.

[Jimmy]

 Hendricks266, on 09 September 2020 - 01:45 PM, said:

How does moderation come into play? A fair share of the posts are dissenting views and they are not being silenced, other than the thread as a whole being locked.

If the thread is locked then all views are silenced except those of the moderator.

The problem with authoritative moderation is that it doesn't allow a social order to be established in a social manner, which is crucial to male and both-gender social groups. In relation to gaming communities, your average gamer is probably male and definitely has a healthy sense of competition. Just look at speed runners, obsessions with high scores, etc. Authoritative moderation is what women do, because it limits social competition to near zero. If you've ever seen the movie Mean Girls that is literally what is at play over at DoomWorld and ZDoom forums. The other side of the coin is something like 4chan, where competition is the name of the game.

[Fox]

 Hendricks266, on 09 September 2020 - 01:45 PM, said:

How does moderation come into play? A fair share of the posts are dissenting views and they are not being silenced, other than the thread as a whole being locked.

The vibe I got is that the moderators use their power to dissuade modders on what they should put in their projects.

[Forge]

 Fox, on 09 September 2020 - 02:59 PM, said:

The vibe I got is that the moderators use their power to dissuade modders on what they should put in their projects.

well modders are a "dime a dozen" and "easily replaced"

[Fox]

I think the reality is that they don't care, for them politics take a priority.

[Jimmy]

You can always pick out a subverter because of their misplaced priorities.

[Aristotle Gumball]

 Jimmy, on 09 September 2020 - 02:13 PM, said:

If the thread is locked then all views are silenced except those of the moderator.

The problem with authoritative moderation is that it doesn't allow a social order to be established in a social manner, which is crucial to male and both-gender social groups. In relation to gaming communities, your average gamer is probably male and definitely has a healthy sense of competition. Just look at speed runners, obsessions with high scores, etc. Authoritative moderation is what women do, because it limits social competition to near zero. If you've ever seen the movie Mean Girls that is literally what is at play over at DoomWorld and ZDoom forums. The other side of the coin is something like 4chan, where competition is the name of the game.

Agree that the thread shouldn't be locked, but disagree with the "authoritative moderating is what women do", simply because, well... men do it also. Social competition still happens on Doomworld, but there are constraints. Call them rules. 4chan has little to no rules.

A Mean Girls style of moderating would probably consist of some subtle form of manipulation, things women resort to because traditionally they didn't wield overt power. I've been in communities run by women and they rarely kicked anybody out. They tried to solve everything with diplomacy, almost to a fault. Now look at what happens when men with firm & unwavering ideals do once they get some power... they abuse the shit out of it. Your Hitler's and Stalin's, etc. It's establishing social order through brute force, a typically male tactic.

[Danukem]

If you put aside gender for a minute, Jimmy's claim is interesting and explains a lot about his attitude towards forum moderation. He's saying that left without intervention, forum members will naturally compete socially and a hierarchy or "social order" will form. So out of anarchy comes a pecking order. Based on what, though? Presumably, on what the community members tend to value in each other (speedrunning example). But (again, this is Jimmy's analysis, not mine) if moderators cut off debates/fights then this disrupts social competition and prevents a proper social order from forming.

Does Mom say "Boys, stop fighting!" and does Dad say, "Boys will be boys, let them hash it out."? Jimmy says they do. But that gender generalization is the distracting part that can be separated from the other analysis.

[Aristotle Gumball]

I'm half-way with Jimmy on this issue. I just didn't feel the need to elaborate when I agreed the thread shouldn't have been locked.

My only disagreement is that it's somehow a female thing. I'm nitpicking.

Yeah, mom will say, "Boys, stop fighting!", but when they don't, it's dad who has to put his foot down.

I think Doomworld mods tend to go a bit too far, but I don't see the point in complaining about it. We can, though, so by all means continue, lol.

The pecking order thing, well, who is to say what's proper? Maybe the owners of the website want discussions to be limited to certain topics, maybe they don't. Doomworld is a much bigger site than Duke4 and most members seem happy with it.

[Balls of Steel Forever]

Males are aroused more by sadomasochistic tendencies
Males are typically more aroused by sadistic or masochistic tendencies then females.
Sexual preferences are one of the more basic human instincts.

If we ascribe these sexual tendencies to conversation
We get males getting more pleasure from being controlled and being the controller
and women are moreso indifferent to either

More sexual tendencies
This work found that men are more pleasured to be submissive
And that women were found to be more controlling

which would coincide with jimmys argument

On first glance these two articles would seem contradictory
Option A is claiming that men are more aroused by sadism and masochism
Option B is stating that men lean towards masochism, and women lean towards sadism.

However it is not.
Option A means that men get more pleasure from these acts then women do
In essence if you whipped a man, he would typically get more pleasure, then a women would
and if a man was the cracker he would typically get more pleasure out of it then a women would
Option B means that men like being whipped more
and women like being the crackers more

In essence from these two articles we can gather
That typically a woman's base instinct is to be in the controlling sadistic position and gets less pleasure from such sadism or masochism then a man typically does
A man's typical base instinct is to be in the submissive masochistic position and gets more pleasure from sadism and masochism then a woman typically does

Now coming back to jimmy's statement.
Men typically prefer to argue, however get more pleasure from winning or losing, and an addiction to either can lead to abuse of either (Authoritarian or victim)
with a preference of being the victim
Women typically prefer to control, but don't have that enjoyment that men get, so this lack of enjoyment from either winning or losing
and this preference to be in control, means that women like familiarity more then men do, and are less prone to getting addicted to sadistic or masochistic tendencies.
That is what I could gather.


Stanford shindig
This here states that men heavily lean towards being competitive
but risk aversion (which could be authoritative tendencies)
which is slightly contradictory to my previous statement.
only play a small role in women's lack of competitive spirit.

There are several other factors in play here
but none display this lean to shut down arguments

Moderation authoritative or not comes from both sides of the ball field
Certain genders are less likely, or more likely to display certain tendencies.
However making a broad overreaching statement such as

 Jimmy, on 09 September 2020 - 02:13 PM, said:

Authoritative moderation is what women do, because it limits social competition to near zero. If you've ever seen the movie Mean Girls that is literally what is at play over at DoomWorld and ZDoom forums. The other side of the coin is something like 4chan, where competition is the name of the game.

Is sexist as it implies that all women fit under your statement.

 Jimmy, on 09 September 2020 - 02:13 PM, said:

male and definitely has a healthy sense of competition.

This is also a broad overreaching sexist statement.

 Jimmy, on 09 September 2020 - 02:13 PM, said:

The problem with authoritative moderation is that it doesn't allow a social order to be established in a social manner,

Rules and authoritative moderation does give such the ability to create discussion akin to such social order
if used properly
It allows for more civil conversation then

 Jimmy, on 09 September 2020 - 02:13 PM, said:

The other side of the coin is something like 4chan, where competition is the name of the game.

4chan and 8kun allow echo rooms for hatred
and if such echo rooms are left unchecked
there may be real life consequences

Spoiler

most of what I said is contrived bullishit
but perpetuating uncontrived bullshit is worse

[Forge]

I was part of a mostly female admin team on a Sims 1 web forum.

They were insane.

You were allowed to only post positive and polite comments on their maps and object creations. Constructive criticism of any kind was severely frowned upon and considered a major taboo.
Oddly they vented through massive amounts of political derangement. Large amount of vinegar and hate permeated almost every thread. These people made Radar look like a meek little mouse (but from the other end of the political spectrum).

I was kicked from the admin team for suggesting that there be a dedicated section for non-game related topics. Two female moderators were also removed for agreeing with me.
I shortly got banned for publicly mentioning that tabloid rhetoric was derailing threads about map creation challenges. I found out later that apparently I was being misogynistic by not allowing women to speak.


tl;dr, Jimmy speaks the truth

[Aristotle Gumball]

Hey man, my n=1 is better than your n=1.

[Ninety-Six]

 Fox, on 09 September 2020 - 02:59 PM, said:

The vibe I got is that the moderators use their power to dissuade modders on what they should put in their projects.

 Fox, on 09 September 2020 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think the reality is that they don't care, for them politics take a priority.

Really, that's the ultimate truth of the matter here. Truth is, as obnoxious as their crying over [insert latest target here] is, I can typically separate a person from their work. Take for instance, TerminusEst13. Everything I've seen from him makes me really not care for him as a person. But at the same time, I can't deny that he does quality modding, and enjoy a fair few of them myself.

The thing with doomworld (and its main affiliates) though is that they do their damndest to make separation as difficult as possible, if not impossible. Their constant politicization and victim card playing gives them an undeserved sense of moral superiority, and they despise anyone or projects from outside the group. Notice how they rarely criticize a mod itself and usually just attack its creator for X reason.

And that goes the other way too. To criticize them, when not with the "in-crowd", is something that can't be done if you're not on the same moral level they are. And those that are, well, they don't as a whole really care for the actual gameplay portion of doom. As I said, they only see it as a canvas to make abstract art with. This is why they love to say they've surpassed the original vanilla levels when in terms of gameplay it's typically much worse.

The only real criticism they bother to hear are technical failings: misaligned textures, visplane crashes, etc. Try to criticize the gameplay and it's generally considered being "too negative." Difficulty balancing is usually half-assed at best, and barely attempted at worst. The ultimate result is a community where newcomers are ignored, and mainstays are strongly encouraged to make the exact same style of map and to join in the circle-jerk that happens every December.


The end result is really pretty maps where they just throw down 20 cyberdemons and 50 archviles and call it a day.

Even that itself wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't the only thing on offer. For the sheer size of the community and the volume of output per year, it's funny how the only mapsets that get any attention are indistinguishable from each other. And that's because of just how clique-like doomworld and co. are.


I know I'm a broken record at this point and probably every active member has seen my rants five times over, but this is really where it all comes from. A community forcibly homogenized through power drunk admins/moderators, social ostracizing, and rewarding only those that fall in line, both socially and product-wise.



So to put it to a point, there is nothing surprising about their opinions regarding the gameplay of these shooters. They see themselves morally superior to everyone who likes the genre first and foremost, so of course they want no association with the rest of us. And since they do not and probably have never cared about the gameplay of Doom itself, then yeah naturally they don't see why Doom should be lumped in with its own genre because they spent the past decade and a half ignoring everything about game and level design. Only surface-level aesthetics have ever mattered to them, in the absolute greatest irony of all of this.

[Aristotle Gumball]

96, I might not agree entirely, but you're so passionate about this subject that I applaud you.

THE ULTIMATE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THIS (proceeds with declamatory speech)

Bravo!

[Balls of Steel Forever]

 Forge, on 10 September 2020 - 05:16 AM, said:

I was part of a mostly female admin team on a Sims 1 web forum.

They were insane.

You were allowed to only post positive and polite comments on their maps and object creations. Constructive criticism of any kind was severely frowned upon and considered a major taboo.
Oddly they vented through massive amounts of political derangement. Large amount of vinegar and hate permeated almost every thread. These people made Radar look like a meek little mouse (but from the other end of the political spectrum).

I was kicked from the admin team for suggesting that there be a dedicated section for non-game related topics. Two female moderators were also removed for agreeing with me.
I shortly got banned for publicly mentioning that tabloid rhetoric was derailing threads about map creation challenges. I found out later that apparently I was being misogynistic by not allowing women to speak.


tl;dr, Jimmy speaks the truth

It's too small a group to be declared exact science.

I'm insane.

I mean I'll get titties later
but right now I'm still relying on testosterone.
Same as you.

[Forge]

 The Overman, on 10 September 2020 - 05:35 AM, said:

It's too small a group to be declared exact science.

you severely underestimate how popular sims games are and how big their community is

do research next time please


e.g. the first Doom sold around 2 million units, Sims 1 sold around 11 million units, World of Warcraft sold around 14 million units

also behavioral "science" is never exact, but there are patterns

[Jimmy]

 Cartaphallus, on 09 September 2020 - 11:08 PM, said:

Agree that the thread shouldn't be locked, but disagree with the "authoritative moderating is what women do", simply because, well... men do it also. Social competition still happens on Doomworld, but there are constraints. Call them rules. 4chan has little to no rules.

Humans are composed of masculinity and femininity in varying amounts. 4chan does have rules, but they are socially distributed not from an "above" (except for illegal materials like pizza or whatever.)

 Cartaphallus, on 09 September 2020 - 11:08 PM, said:

A Mean Girls style of moderating would probably consist of some subtle form of manipulation, things women resort to because traditionally they didn't wield overt power. I've been in communities run by women and they rarely kicked anybody out. They tried to solve everything with diplomacy, almost to a fault. Now look at what happens when men with firm & unwavering ideals do once they get some power... they abuse the shit out of it. Your Hitler's and Stalin's, etc. It's establishing social order through brute force, a typically male tactic.

Hitler and Stalin were fops.

 Danukem, on 10 September 2020 - 02:42 AM, said:

If you put aside gender for a minute, Jimmy's claim is interesting and explains a lot about his attitude towards forum moderation. He's saying that left without intervention, forum members will naturally compete socially and a hierarchy or "social order" will form. So out of anarchy comes a pecking order. Based on what, though? Presumably, on what the community members tend to value in each other (speedrunning example). But (again, this is Jimmy's analysis, not mine) if moderators cut off debates/fights then this disrupts social competition and prevents a proper social order from forming.

It also leaves ideas, arguments, etc unresolved which foments destructive social disorder. We have seen this here. Topics get locked or deleted and inevitably that wound festers and pops back open months later. You can set your clocks and place bets.

This attitude in moderation actually began it's life here (before things changed so much) and cemented itself in Bohab Central (GWAR fansite) where I was a moderator. When it was a forum we never banned anyone (except legit spammers and we never used spam as a mental gymnastics excuse to ban legitimate people.) Mods only ever did things to antagonize posters that weren't liked. Change their names, avatars, signatures, or even entire posts. If it was decided by the community that they didn't like someone they would be belittled mercilessly until they decided to leave on their own.

 Cartaphallus, on 10 September 2020 - 03:11 AM, said:

Yeah, mom will say, "Boys, stop fighting!", but when they don't, it's dad who has to put his foot down.

Because he is at the top of the social order. Mothers who end up at the top of the social order usually end up with unhappy broken men, abused children, and unhappy, mean unfulfilled women.

 Cartaphallus, on 10 September 2020 - 03:11 AM, said:

The pecking order thing, well, who is to say what's proper? Maybe the owners of the website want discussions to be limited to certain topics, maybe they don't. Doomworld is a much bigger site than Duke4 and most members seem happy with it.

Pecking orders will always be established regardless of any person or group's interference. They can be manipulated but they cannot be avoided.

 The Overman, on 10 September 2020 - 05:14 AM, said:

Is sexist as it implies that all women fit under your statement.

This is also a broad overreaching sexist statement.

I am sexist. I love women because they are different from men. I treat them differently, and not because I think they are less than. I open/hold doors, give wifey and close friends thoughtful gifts and letters, do "man jobs" for them around the house and yard, make sure to compliment their appearance/personality every so often, have one-on-one "feelings" conversations with them, etc etc because these things are more important to them than they will ever tell you openly. Buy a woman in your life some nice flowers, a vase, arrange them yourself and give it to them and see how they light up. (Don't do it to a random woman you don't know you fucking neckbeard.) Do that to a man and he's gonna call you a [REDACTED] and laugh at you.

 The Overman, on 10 September 2020 - 05:14 AM, said:

4chan and 8kun allow echo rooms for hatred
and if such echo rooms are left unchecked
there may be real life consequences

More likely than not these "echo rooms" have prevented more tragedies than they have caused. I've seen some people really get the help they needed from places like this because they were able to vent and get these feelings out of themselves in a more constructive way. Anonymity can make it easier for some people to pull their guts out, which we all have to do at some point in our lives or we'll absolutely go bonkers. The pain that men experience these days can be brutal and is often completely disregarded, with no clear path to recovery. Men successfully commit suicide the most for a reason. It is a solution, although not a great one. But it's easy.

 Forge, on 10 September 2020 - 05:16 AM, said:

I was part of a mostly female admin team on a Sims 1 web forum.

Jesus Christ.

 The Overman, on 10 September 2020 - 05:35 AM, said:

I mean I'll get titties later
but right now I'm still relying on testosterone.
Same as you.

You could actually have an imbalance of female hormones.

 Forge, on 10 September 2020 - 06:05 AM, said:

also behavioral "science" is never exact, but there are patterns

Guys who don't understand the differences between men and women expose their insular lifestyles. They don't have a group of men in their life (and if they do, they are not older men) or much experience with women. This breeds an imbalance in their Divine Femininity and makes them say things like "Not all women are X" while completely missing the point. The ability to generalize groups and situations is the greatest survival tactic man ever evolved into having, "trusting your gut" can save your life a million times over. Pretty much all women understand the differences between men and women and if you don't think they're using it to their full advantage all the time, you've been duped. They typically have the most social power, because men seek to protect them on an instinctual level. This instinct has largely been misappropriated in the first world because it is so safe, the things women "have to be" "protected" "from" are largely shadows on the wall compared to the third world.

[Aristotle Gumball]

 Jimmy, on 10 September 2020 - 07:54 AM, said:

Pecking orders will always be established regardless of any person or group's interference. They can be manipulated but they cannot be avoided.

Well, it's not wrong to manipulate or guide their formation. If you had siblings, your parents were hopefully doing that. An online community is similar. Much like parents, though, mods can be assholes.

I've repeated this ad nauseum at this point, but if you have a community with little to no enforcement of rules, then the loudest and most aggressive people take over. It's fine to not want every forum to turn into 4chan.

We can have a healthy meld of the two philosophies. Some chaos and some order, without one eclipsing the other.

[Danukem]

 Cartaphallus, on 10 September 2020 - 05:32 AM, said:

96, I might not agree entirely, but you're so passionate about this subject that I applaud you.

Same. I don't frequent Doomworld so he could be making it all up and I wouldn't know, but it's still compelling!

[dnskill]

Well put, 96. I agree with you. Yes, there are good mods and levels being released for Doom but the ones that get the most attention all feel the same and come from the same few people, or are just gore mods that I would’ve made when I was 12.

Mods like those are easier to do in Duke 3D anyhow because you just have to change how many JIBS spawn in GAME.CON to get a more “brutal” gore effect. You don’t have to mess with anything other than a couple numbers. Doesn’t get much simpler than that.