[Aristotle Gumball]

I've underestimated how fucked up your country is to be honest. I had no clue you could open carry military grade weaponry on the streets of Seattle, but evidently you can.

So I don't see how the CHAZ is an armed insurgency or whatever the fuck Fox news is claiming compared to just your average day.

[Danukem]

thricecursed, on 15 June 2020 - 11:21 PM, said:

BTW, I had no clue about Washington law, but it's legal to open carry rifles there.

It's not legal to hand them out to people, though. Openly carrying is more honest and gives everyone an opportunity to know. For example, law enforcement can stop and ask you about it. Conceal and carry usually requires a special permit because of the extra dangers it presents.

Quote

(1) All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law.

I don't suppose he was doing background checks that got edited out of the video.

To be clear: state perpretrated violence is an especially reprehensible form of violence and, other things being equal, it is worse than when individuals perform the same kinds of acts not acting under the color of authority. I was pointing out that the form of defense was equivalent (those bad X don't represent the larger group)

EDIT: I'm not familiar with Washington state law in particular, but I know that in many places where it is legal to openly carry around a firearm you are still not allowed to do so with it loaded.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Trooper Dan, on 15 June 2020 - 11:38 PM, said:

It's not legal to hand them out to people, though. Openly carrying is more honest and gives everyone an opportunity to know. For example, law enforcement can stop and ask you about it. Conceal and carry usually requires a special permit because of the extra dangers it presents.



I don't suppose he was doing background checks that got edited out of the video.

To be clear: state perpretrated violence is an especially reprehensible form of violence and, other things being equal, it is worse than when individuals perform the same kinds of acts not acting under the color of authority. I was pointing out that the form of defense was equivalent (those bad X don't represent the larger group)

EDIT: I'm not familiar with Washington state law in particular, but I know that in many places where it is legal to openly carry around a firearm you are still not allowed to do so with it loaded.

I feel like I'm just gonna drop this argument since it seems neither of us are that well versed in Washington firearm law and I'm honestly too lazy to go searching right now. "As a general rule, a person may legally open-carry in Washington state in any place it is legal to possess a loaded handgun" - that's all I bothered to find.

I can tell you since we started talking about this, I brought it up with someone who was at the CHAZ recently and they told me the logic of handing out the rifles was to intimidate groups like Proud Boys who were coming in and starting shit with the protesters. It's not a good image, though, and I'll admit that. I still don't see any equivalency ("the same kinds of acts" - Huh? Who is committing the SAME kind of violence right now as the police?) and for the record, I DON'T believe all cops are bad cops.

[Aristotle Gumball]

https://www.washingt...RCrW-lkuG--pjvw

Some transfers between non-licensed sellers and buyers are exempt from the background check requirement including:

Bona fide gift transfers between spouses, domestic partners, parents, parents-in-law, children, siblings, siblings-in-law, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles;

Transfers to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm so long as the temporary transfer lasts only as long as immediately necessary to prevent such imminent death or great bodily harm. The transferee must not be prohibited from possessing a firearm under state or federal law.

Temporary transfers if: (1) the transfer is intended to prevent suicide or self-inflicted great bodily harm; (2) the transfer lasts only as long as reasonably necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm, and; (3) the firearm is not utilized by the transferee for any purpose for the duration of the temporary transfer.

You could argue that they felt an imminent threat. Hell, maybe they were all his cousins too. (JK)

[Danukem]

It wouldn't be "imminent" though unless the proud boys were known to be in the vicinity and on their way to do harm. Otherwise we could just say that about any gun transfer we want to defend and completely bypass the background check requirement. "Hey, I'm handing out guns to all my buddies in the neighborhood for the neighborhood watch against rioters, and I'll get them back as soon as the threat is over...in 2030 or whenever that is." Now if the rioters are literally coming up the street with weapons and have made their intentions clear, then yeah that would be an imminent danger.

As for the "They don't represent the majority" defense...it's an empirical claim. It's not a formal fallacy like denying the consequent and it's not strictly an informal fallacy either. But the problem is that in most contexts where you are arguing against someone who holds the group you are defending in low esteem, it is a question-begging empirical claim to make. That doesn't make it false, just unpersuasive.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Trooper Dan, on 16 June 2020 - 12:44 AM, said:

It wouldn't be "imminent" though unless the proud boys were known to be in the vicinity and on their way to do harm.

That's what I was told was going on, but you weren't there and nor was I. Let's leave it at that.

Trooper Dan, on 16 June 2020 - 12:44 AM, said:

As for the "They don't represent the majority" defense...it's an empirical claim. It's not a formal fallacy like denying the consequent and it's not strictly an informal fallacy either. But the problem is that in most contexts where you are arguing against someone who holds the group you are defending in low esteem, it is a question-begging empirical claim to make. That doesn't make it false, just unpersuasive.

You're saying you're not convinced. OK, fine. I said what I thought and I'm not gonna go all out defending a place I've never been to and people I've never met. But let's not jump to negative conclusions either.

[Radar]

Let's face it, you already know a lefty is up to no good if he wants a gun.

[Aristotle Gumball]

R A D A Я, on 16 June 2020 - 03:58 AM, said:

Let's face it, you already know a lefty is up to no good if he wants a gun.

Which hand do you use to jerk off?

[Radar]

Left because it feels like someone else is doing it.

[Aristotle Gumball]

I rest my case.

[Radar]

You're about to rest a lot more right on my balls.

[Aristotle Gumball]

R A D A Я, on 16 June 2020 - 06:54 AM, said:

You're about to rest a lot more right on my balls.

Nah, everyone knows Carlton is the bottom.

[PokeThePower]

Forge, on 15 June 2020 - 10:48 PM, said:

that would suit me just fine.

As a child who grew up with two police officers and two prison guards as parents... I'm 100% in support of cities having the freedom and option to pursue abolition of state funded police, fire, etc. and returning that power to the people to organize and regulate abuse of the use of force among themselves. If you leave the city limits you will of course relinquish whatever standards your city operates under... and no State or Federal law enforcement will be provided in the case a city chooses to abolish their own forces that are accountable to other agencies.

thricecursed, on 15 June 2020 - 11:55 PM, said:

Who is committing the SAME kind of violence right now as the police?

We're not allowed to talk about the predominate source of violence in America.

[Radar]

Yeah but knowing leftist policy, they'll abolish the police and then if the intruder you shot happens to be black you'll get 100 years in prison.

[Mark]

I don't doubt these cop free zones would end up employing the same profiling and bias that they SUPPOSEDLY abhor. Nothing accomplished other than the chaos and destruction. Blatant racism continues, just directed at a different skin color and/or gender.

[Danukem]

R A D A Я, on 16 June 2020 - 11:04 AM, said:

Yeah but knowing leftist policy, they'll abolish the police and then if the intruder you shot happens to be black you'll get 100 years in prison.

Why does prison still exist and who is going to put you there?

The main thing that police are good for is deterring violent crimes and property crimes. But both of those can be done by private individuals and groups of private individuals. The other things that police do are mostly what statists want, such as giving out speeding tickets and enforcing quarantines.

A rational conservative or libertarian does not respond to the defund police drive by going on the defensive. Instead, he rubs his hands together in glee and says, "That's great! What else do we get to defund!"

[Forge]

thricecursed, on 15 June 2020 - 11:27 PM, said:

military grade weaponry

your opinion is yours to keep and cherish
but this term doesn't mean what you think it means.

all military grade / mil spec indicates is that an item is mass produced to be interchangeable.
every blanket is exactly the same, every nut and bolt is exactly the same, etc., etc.
when used towards weapons, all that means is you can take a part off one rifle and put it in another rifle of the same model & it will fit and function

[Forge]

As for Washington State firearms laws
why is it even a debate?
The terrorists seized private and public property and set up their own compound; which does not recognize any outside law or authority.
They do what they want.
Including rape, extortion, child molestation, vandalism, assault, and whatever else they do after it gets dark and the mainstream media camera crews go home.
Giving semi-automatic rifles to people under 21 is not one of their major concerns.

[Aristotle Gumball]

"what you think it means"

Nigga plz. Get out of my head.

What I meant is weapons that are most commonly used by the military. You have to realize how uncommon open carry of anything is in Europe. Automatics/semi's are unheard of. So excuse my shock when I realize how "different" your country is.

[Radar]

Trooper Dan, on 16 June 2020 - 12:33 PM, said:

Why does prison still exist and who is going to put you there?

The main thing that police are good for is deterring violent crimes and property crimes. But both of those can be done by private individuals and groups of private individuals. The other things that police do are mostly what statists want, such as giving out speeding tickets and enforcing quarantines.

A rational conservative or libertarian does not respond to the defund police drive by going on the defensive. Instead, he rubs his hands together in glee and says, "That's great! What else do we get to defund!"

Because I'm not an anarchist, which is what that actually is. And either way, anarchy can only function under a society of highly principled individuals, which is certainly not any leftist city.

I have a theory that Anarchy is to the right what Communism is to the left: ideal yet utterly impractical utopian visions. Functional Western societies meet somewhere half way.

[Danukem]

R A D A Я, on 16 June 2020 - 01:12 PM, said:

Because I'm not an anarchist, which is what that actually is. And either way, anarchy can only function under a society of highly principled individuals, which is certainly not any leftist city.

I have a theory that Anarchy is to the right what Communism is to the left: ideal yet utterly impractical utopian visions. Functional Western societies meet somewhere half way.

Anarchy is a transitory condition. It's unstable. Anarchy is not the end-game, it shouldn't be an ideal. Maybe it is an ideal for certain lucky individuals who know they will have the power and resources to come out on top, but I'm not one of those. I don't think for a moment that the outcome of anarchy in California will be the same as anarchy in Texas. But if given a choice between anarchy and a totalitarian state, I will choose anarchy every time, because at least in anarchy there is hope. In the midst of anarchy, people can band together and make something better. Under the totalitarian state, those people get shot or put in the gulag.

[Radar]

I believe the left and right play tug of war between two poles: totalitarianism and anarchy. Most people aren't extremists, so when one side gets too powerful that's when people switch voting patterns. But there are fringe ideologues on both sides. Thrice has already explained Totalitarianism 101 to us. Maybe Jimmy or Wieder could extrapolate on the glories of an Anarchist state.

[Mark]

I can't imagine what type of uprising the right could have that would force politicians to vote themselves out of a job. We all know that government has become a bloated job placement service at all levels. Yeah, we get token promises every now and then to downsize government and it's spending but if it happens at all its not in a meaningful amount. The peaceful Tea Party is about the only "weapon" used by the right and it mostly was about who were the best candidates to vote for. I just can't see the right stepping it up a few notches and act like the left has been for decades.

Maybe its all moot. In another generation the last of the boomers are gone and the right may still have a few million stragglers from those households but the indoctrinated lefties will continue to multiply because of fewer conservatives to fight their agenda. Our only chance is that the lefties have a change of heart after years in the real world and come to their senses. I wouldn't bet on it though.

[PokeThePower]

I'm pretty ambivalent at this point in my life. It's clear to me that these swings through the various forms of organizing humans have more in common with physics and chemistry than philosophy so I am prepared for whichever dangerous wild animal I'm eventually presented with. Including the possibility the movement might kill me and anything I ever cared about.

[Jimmy]

Hahahahahah how fucking retarded do you have to be to consider AR-15s military grade weaponry.

[Hank]

[rant]
Why such extremes? Anarchist vs totalitarian? During hard times, and this Covid-19 Con is and will be harsh to everyone, crimes go sky high. Solution? Dissolve the police, because the city is broke, and can’t afford a large police force anyway, and tell everyone, we doing it to please the BLM.

How about this democracy thingy? Let everyone be heard, extremes and rational ideas, and come to a conclusion.

Or better yet, accept that police brutality and racism exist, should be worked on, but the main focus right now is to get peeps back into business. I’m still working on my website, but so far 3 million businesses, and their livelihoods, are down the drain. Permanently. What we need are coherent leaders. I see none. Let’s get rid of those morons first. No brain, no office. Then the police issue will solve itself.



[/rant]

[PokeThePower]

Hank, on 16 June 2020 - 05:52 PM, said:

Why such extremes? Anarchist vs totalitarian?

Hank, on 16 June 2020 - 05:52 PM, said:

How about this democracy thingy? Let everyone be heard, extremes and rational ideas, and come to a conclusion.

Hank, on 16 June 2020 - 05:52 PM, said:

What we need are coherent leaders. I see none. Let’s get rid of those morons first.

Without being extreme?

Hank, on 16 June 2020 - 05:52 PM, said:

Then the police issue will solve itself.

https://twitter.com/...864699537854465

[Balls of Steel Forever]

thricecursed, on 15 June 2020 - 11:27 PM, said:

I've underestimated how fucked up your country is to be honest. I had no clue you could open carry military grade weaponry on the streets of Seattle, but evidently you can.

5.56 and 7.62 will do nothing against level 3 armor, which is what cops would walk in there with. Sure you could use tungsten ammunition, but that is 20 bucks a core and I don't think these people know how to load rounds or have the money for that kind of ammo.

If they were smart, they would have ar 15s modified with a 22-250 barrel and shoot high velocity 22-250 rounds
which cut through 3+ like butter(without burning a 5.56 barrel that isn't meant for high velocity). Or 30-06s with black tip ammunition that does the same thing.

Swat police they're fucked, it's typically level 4 armor and they need the previously mentioned tungsten ammunition or .50 BMG (which are f'in expensive), large or medium sized hunting ammo such as 45 90 .338 or nitro express would probably deal enough of a shock trauma to debilitate a person. But they wouldn't penetrate.

Have to aim for neck/face or they most likely are going to shoot you while they're down.

Imo "military grade" would be a m240 bravo with black tip ammunition, which none of them have.

[Hank]

RunRonRun, on 16 June 2020 - 06:26 PM, said:

Without being extreme?

[rant continue]
The truth is extreme?

Show the vast damage caused by politicians who listened to and enforced sciencism priest doctrines, and let the people decide what to do with them come voting time. If the people vote for them again, fine. But I have faith in my neighbors.
[\rant]

[PokeThePower]

Hank, on 16 June 2020 - 08:45 PM, said:

The truth is extreme?

Well... yes actually. But I meant ousting the entrenched network that operates under the surface of whatever elected facade is currently taking the heat... without being extreme.

Hank, on 16 June 2020 - 08:45 PM, said:

Show the vast damage caused by politicians who listened to and enforced sciencism priest doctrines, and let the people decide what to do with them come voting time.

I don't think the people are lacking for comprehension of the abundance of damage caused by politicians. The culture war isn't a debate on whether the damage is there... but which damage matters and which damage is actually good for you... and who we're gonna choose to do the next round of damage and to whom while trying to convince them it's good for them.

Hank, on 16 June 2020 - 08:45 PM, said:

If the people vote for them again, fine. But I have faith in my neighbors.

If your neighbors were ever going to vote well, they'd have already done it. Just like if Democrats were ever going to help the condition of Blacks in America, they'd have already done it. Just like if Republicans were ever going to bolster Main Street businesses against off shoring, they'd have already done it.