[ck3D]

lol @ 'acerbic', did that post really piss you off? Which part was it, was it the word naive? We're all naive by definition, like I was saying earlier and there's nothing wrong with that. Growing up in a given environment, one can only make assumptions about foreign perspectives and cultures until they actually get to know them in more detail, that's you, me, everybody because that's how existence naturally works. Is that what got you worked up? Usually when people blow a fuse online it's really their own limits that they're fighting. I took the time to think about something you posted and write something I intended as considerate and now you sound like you just endured a meltdown pre-edit, did I look like that much of an enemy to you or something? You just provided more detail to your story, that's cool, I'm interested in your experience or I wouldn't be replying. But you really didn't need to feel challenged, just thought we had grounds for a discussion there is all. Power to you!

edit - ah, someone told me that what you originally said was that I was missing the point. That's fine, I can actually take that. The whole idea of a discussion is for both parties to evolve, of course I'm not going to know all your life story in advance but the bits you're posting. Not sure why you got upset, if you did.

[Aristotle Gumball]

ck3D, on 15 October 2021 - 04:01 AM, said:

Which part was it

We've had extensive conversations both in public and in private, and I figured you knew me better, or thought better of me (at least when I'm attempting to be serious). You just went on a tangent based on something I wrote that was kind of an emotional outburst, and not anything I intended to dissect further or be "analyzed", except maybe in private (doors always open). Besides, this was meant to be a COVID thread anyway.

I mean, "everything he saw about the U.S. positively existed; but it's not like that's all there ever was to the U.S" - it's like you think I don't realize this, when I do. You've been involved in discussions where I've heavily criticized the US, past and present. What more can I say? It's not some fairytale land of badasses and hot chicks and freedom. But it is MUCH MORE that than almost any other place, lol.

You know a TV show I really loved growing up? Married with Children. Hilariously dysfunctional, but totally honest. I saw European shows, listened to European music as well. American creative products were simply more honest, more real, and consistently so, over a pretty long period of time. This has complex historical reasons. Nothing about what I said is so clearly "delusional" that you can just throw that word out there. It says more about what you think about me, than what the actual reality is.

In my daily life and patterns of thinking, I take the good and discard the bad. I also don't care for utopianism. However, things can be broadly true about a specific geographic location and its culture to be worth caring about, and grieving over once it passes away. What I wrote was just a personal expression that didn't require third party approval or disapproval.

Obviously since this is public, I will get both, and that's fine. But I don't have to accept the specific content of what gets written in response, and in this case I disagree. Think you were reading it like I have a serious mental illness and possibly brain damage. Maybe I do, but you're not gonna get far by insinuating that when talking to me.

Bottom line: no, I don't think America is or was great because of pop culture, nor is that my one metric for deciding if a country has gone to shit.

[Jimmy]

Imagine actually finding it hard to believe that someone growing up in the Eastern Bloc after the fucking fall of the Soviet Union might find hope in the richest country in the world at the time holy shit lol

[ck3D]

I mean, you posted publicly in the first place, with all the humble responsibility that that might entail (public interpretations and replies). Maybe it would have been more sensitive to PM you but this was just faster, felt more open to possible participation from others (because again, why shame?) and it just didn't exactly make sense to suddenly switch an active discussion from public to private.

Yes we've talked before and that's also why I was intrigued by your story here, I thought it was interesting to compare the nature of those early inspirations and aspirations with how critical you are now. I feel like you've been quick to lend me present day accusations and simplifications when the bit I quoted from your post literally starts with 'as a kid', and I think it's generally pretty obvious in my messages that I'm not talking about present day you but the delusions we all have to various extent growing up.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post; it's good discussion. I'm sorry you felt attacked but I think there really was zero rational reason to get defensive, unless you keep reading my posts in a tone I don't intend. If I somehow did hit a sensitive spot with that point now though then maybe that's something to think about on some level, I don't know - I'm not trying to be your psychotherapist or drill my own bullshit into your brain. Just whenever people's bubbles seem apparent, whether that's a hit or a miss I'm into going and popping them just like I'd expect them to go and pop mine whenever given the chance, because I find that to be the greatest help one can give, tickling people towards the confrontation of their own limits and I'm frankly really sick of a society where honest interactions are a no-no. That only instills fake senses of importance and pride into people, nurtures mediocrity and discourages progress.

I'd shoot the shit about why exactly you saw more or less authenticity in this or that aspect of certain cultures because that was the point that originally interested me but now I'm running out of time and you're right that this may be straying towards O/T too much. But escapism, naivety, delusions are all parts of our lives and important concepts to consider and discuss. I expected you to be able of that detachment since in general you show a lot of it.

Jimmy, on 15 October 2021 - 09:07 AM, said:

Imagine actually finding it hard to believe that someone growing up in the Eastern Bloc after the fucking fall of the Soviet Union might find hope in the richest country in the world at the time holy shit lol

I've actually studied that shit to an extent. Some regions in the Eastern Bloc had variations in their aspirations in detail, it's actually a really interesting topic. Hungary in particular always seemed more protective of its heritage.

[Jimmy]

I've never met someone who can write so many words that mean so little.

[ck3D]

Thanks for the laugh!

[Aristotle Gumball]

ck3D, on 15 October 2021 - 09:30 AM, said:

I feel like you've been quick to lend me present day accusations and simplifications when the bit I quoted from your post literally starts with 'as a kid', and I think it's generally pretty obvious in my messages that I'm not talking about present day you but the delusions we all have to various extent growing up.

Delusions we all have? At least own up to the fact that you were talking about me. Dude, there's been a pattern in all my discussions with you: you write a lot of words, going on massive tangents, while ignoring or simplifying what I wrote. You do this with other people too.

"I never developed those frustrations and delusions that you have and I wanted to analyze why. "

" I'm not trying to be your psychotherapist or drill my own bullshit into your brain" (LOL)

"What I suspect you were looking for was a natural, open experience of the world as a whole and perspectives not limited to your narrow surroundings and so you projected that over the U.S"

"A country without flaws doesn't exist but if you used to believe that"

No, don't believe in any of that (then or now), but what I did believe about the topic at hand, I still believe today. Maybe make less annoying assumptions and people won't treat you like an asshole. A question would've been fine.

[ck3D]

I don't have to own up to anything malicious and mysterious since I've always been honest with you from the start: I wasn't singling you out and I even said a lot of your background resonated with mine, wouldn't that make me a braindead moron too by association and so should I take offense of my own? I guess I underestimated how deeply my post would actually affect you when all I was interested in was getting a sincere discussion going until you started pouring your feelings into the thread about how I dared getting a sincere discussion going, because it implied the possibility of you being as misguided as the next person when younger.

But I refuse to believe that you can't own up to having delusions, yeah (past or present and to which extent, none of my business). I have no problem admitting that I probably have mine too, it's easy since, again, it's natural to have them (and I think always great to fight them when you find them), just like it's natural to project shit and to have behavioral patterns (I actually appreciate you pointing mine out to me). Or maybe you think you're exempt? Also, to me you seem like the one simplifying my words into attacks, so perhaps we just suck at communicating on a personal level. I also see a lot of my points getting ignored, including my original interest and you don't see me throw a fit about it.

About the tangents, you're seriously expecting me to come on here sober? This whole convo was never reasonable, fuck it. I'll go crack one open and drink to ye.

[Aristotle Gumball]

ck3D, on 15 October 2021 - 12:02 PM, said:

I don't have to own up to anything malicious and mysterious since I've always been honest with you from the start: I wasn't singling you out and I even said a lot of your background resonated with mine

Well, you didn't elaborate, so I have no idea what actually resonated.

ck3D, on 15 October 2021 - 12:02 PM, said:

But I refuse to believe that you can't own up to having delusions

Sure, just not anything re: what I wrote on this page, lol. That's it.

[ck3D]

Yo, that's cool. You really didn't need the drama to clarify.

What resonated was pretty much all of it. Obviously first and foremost growing up geographically outside the U.S. on the most basic of levels, just in different countries (which leads me to wonder how 'Americanized' for the lack of a better term Estonia was in your kid and teenage years; I know France was just on the verge of giving up on its heritage for good in mine, so part of my upbringing really felt like witnessing a transitionary stage; and like I was saying earlier, I'm aware different countries or regions in Eastern Europe have been more or less embracing of the general Western influence at different periods). A lot of random detail too, oddly enough, such as only getting your first computers thanks to a richer relative or being misunderstood at school (I was three years younger than everyone on my program throughout my entire schooling; didn't help).

But then on a personal level, relating to American culture in general. That doesn't have to mean pop culture (like I'd suspect you're going around in Estonia wearing a Compton hat, lol; well scratch that, that almost sounds pretty sick), in fact most of my American references were too sharp for my direct environment, from classic hardcore to free jazz. A lot of it was also 'fucked up' or just straight up too impenetrable for mass marketing and consumption, leading me to later gravitate around D.I.Y. culture in general. I believe it's the effervescence that was appealing in comparison to a lot of our generally old-fashioned, rigid, classic ways (at least that's how they felt as a kid who's only ever been exposed to them), so I always embraced American culture as an alternative (although not exclusively) - maybe integrated the lifestyle in ways that make me stand out like a sore thumb in my French landscape to the point where society points it out to me that I really should live the boring local way, shut my windows on existence and start working a 9-to-5 with nothing in sight for the next day but the same old bullshit, instead of believing in something and going for it. It also hailed freedom, similarly to my own country which - growing up there - also prided itself on freedom but under different terms that to me felt a lot more restrictive, before I realized they really were just different and the best of their concepts not necessarily incompatible, which again makes you wonder. France has no business criticizing the U.S.A. anyway given how hard it's been trying to live up to their model (without the resources) for half a century now, jettisoning many a tradition.

I'm as harsh as myself as you thought I was on you, see - rereading this I'm trying to decipher, does that make me, or this person, or anyone in Europe with U.S. influences a poser of sorts to an extent? Realistically I don't think so. People just aspire to certain universal values, in given universal contexts (for instance oppression). And from then on it's just funny seeing the different forms that they can take at times, and the various (and more or less original) interpretations.

Now I was intrigued by your mention of authenticity because it's a metric I never really considered comparing in between countries, I feel like every country really has their scene of creatives crafting authenticity because that's just a very natural, human thing to do. So of course I was going to wonder how much of that early observation may or may have been influenced by exoticism - which is a thing, so why deny the possibility. I don't think that's underestimating you (lol), just being critical. Looking back at my own history I can easily tell which stages of my development I was more or less influenced by exoticism in my perception of literally most every culture until actually introduced to it - only if one doesn't refine their observation over time, that makes them an idiot. And regardless of that altogether, I'm still intrigued about the authenticity bit, but also I don't want to go down to the Outhouse.

Perhaps leading with that post would have been better etiquette, I can give you that. Just had no time earlier and really I hate exposing myself to people a lot more than you assume I do I'm sure. Not shy, I just don't expect their time to be worth my bullshit unless they start asking for it (beware!).

[Aristotle Gumball]

ck3D, on 15 October 2021 - 01:19 PM, said:

Now I was intrigued by your mention of authenticity

Where did I use that word? I've said repeatedly now that the culture I consumed simply fit my own proclivities, and I mourn the loss of said culture. It's nothing more complicated than "old man yells at cloud".

ck3D, on 15 October 2021 - 01:19 PM, said:

I feel like every country really has their scene of creatives crafting authenticity because that's just a very natural, human thing to do. So of course I was going to wonder how much of that early observation may or may have been influenced by exoticism - which is a thing, so why deny the possibility.

Yeah, cultural relativism. I think everything is equally valid too blah blah blah. No, I really do. But there are some things that just feel right for me, and other things that don't.

If life had gone worse for me I might've really ended up being a school shooter. Just not a mosque shooter like someone said. I'd only have killed people who did something to me personally.

But I am a somewhat aggressive person and there is enough evidence to point to those traits being somewhat inborn. So I am what I am, and like what I like. Nothing else that you said I wanna elaborate on or discuss further. Sorry. You remind me of a postmodernist tbh. I'm much more "math and logic" combined with occasional outbursts of emotionality that scares everyone. You should join a book club.

[ck3D]

Ah yeah, I fucked it up. It wasn't authenticity that you were referring to but honesty, as in:

Futa Orc, on 15 October 2021 - 05:37 AM, said:

American creative products were simply more honest, more real, and consistently so, over a pretty long period of time.

But I guess you won't address that either, making drama the only important thing this whole time. That's cool, moving on.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Edit: deleting this garbage in the interest of not derailing the thread further. Bye bye.

[Sangman]

Meanwhile in our government it seems like cooler heads have prevailed - mask mandates are scrapped in most places and there's none of that certificate QR code scanning BS either. Hope it stays that way.

(edit: I should point out that about 70% of the population is fully vaccinated... Well, according to the definition of fully at the time of this post :-))
https://covid-vaccinatie.be/en

[ck3D]

-

[Forge]

[Sanek]

Finally had a vaccine yesterday.
The day went okay, but just when i was about to sleep - slight headache started and temprature increased (not much - by 1 point only).
But the biggest issue is that i didn't had any sleep. I spent most of the time lying in bed, but the fact is that i didn't sleep since vaccination at all (for almost 24 hours)!
Right now i want to get myself to sleep but can't do it no matter how hard i try.

Now I'm worried that vaccine wouldn't work as well as it would, since every article that i found says that a good sleep is crucial after vaccination.

Does anyone expierenced smtn like this?

[Sangman]

The vaccine mobsters got you man, RIP

[Aleks]

Sangman, on 19 October 2021 - 10:01 AM, said:

The vaccine mobsters got you man, RIP

He drew the "sleepless elite" augmentation, lucky bastard...

[Danukem]

Sanek, on 19 October 2021 - 07:59 AM, said:

Finally had a vaccine yesterday.
The day went okay, but just when i was about to sleep - slight headache started and temprature increased (not much - by 1 point only).
But the biggest issue is that i didn't had any sleep. I spent most of the time lying in bed, but the fact is that i didn't sleep since vaccination at all (for almost 24 hours)!
Right now i want to get myself to sleep but can't do it no matter how hard i try.

Now I'm worried that vaccine wouldn't work as well as it would, since every article that i found says that a good sleep is crucial after vaccination.

Does anyone expierenced smtn like this?

[Jimmy]

Which one did you take?

[Sanek]

Thank you guys,I should have expected such responses

@Jimmy Sputnik.

[Danukem]

I've never heard of a vaccine not working because you had trouble sleeping. Your immune system works better when you are rested, but that's just one factor and if you worry about it you just make it worse.

[Sangman]

Sanek, on 19 October 2021 - 11:18 AM, said:

Thank you guys,I should have expected such responses

Relax, you'll be fi

Quote

Sputnik.

Oh.

[Danukem]

Meh, it's probably not bad:

https://www.nature.c...586-021-01813-2

Keep in mind that we are naturally exposed to deadly radiation from the sun every day and our genes naturally get fucked up due to that and errors in replication and other damage sources. We will all get cancer if we live long enough. Aged 49, I took the pfizer jabs early this year at the first opportunity. I figure whatever side effects it might have are outweighed by the reduced risk of dying or getting seriously ill from covid. I'm going to die anyway and probably get cancer at some point, it seems like a strightforward cost-benefit analysis. Fortunately the government wasn't trying to force it on us at that time. If they had been, I probably would have not gotten it.

[Sangman]

I'm just joking around about Sputnik, but

Quote

If they had been, I probably would have not gotten it.

What's your reasoning there?

[jkas789]

Sanek, on 19 October 2021 - 07:59 AM, said:

Does anyone expierenced smtn like this?

I did. Although when I got the first pfizer dose I also had general muscle pain, strong headache and a slight fever of 37 C almost 38. And i still had to work that day kek.

Sputnik seems fine all things considered, so don't worry too much about it.

Quote

I figure whatever side effects it might have

I mean, if you get moderna...

[Jimmy]

What if the person administering it didn't aspirate and it went straight into your bloodstream? Whoops.

[Fox]

Sangman, on 19 October 2021 - 12:19 PM, said:

What's your reasoning there?

[Danukem]

You can't comply your way out of tyranny.