[Player Lin]

Phredreeke, on 30 August 2020 - 03:23 AM, said:

Have you ever owned a business?

Sadly, no...

Now I feel I should just be silent...

[ReaperAA]

As someone who is into both Doom and Duke/Build games and their communities, seeing the past few posts on this thread and the posts on the "Doucheworld thread" make me pretty sad that there exists such a divide between the 2 communities.

Now regarding this Raze vs EDuke32 situation, I don't wish bad for any port and I want both ports to do well. Each of these offer something for me that the other doesn't. EDuke32 has Ion Fury support, better modding support for newer mods and palette emulation, while Raze has better VSync (smoother framerate) and better mouse handling for me. I only wish both parties could have worked together instead of shitting on each other. Granted, it was Graf who started this by taking jabs at EDuke32 and this hasn't helped him, not now and not in the past either (Lilith fiasco resulted in many Doomers becoming hostile towards him). But some of the last few posts here and changing of the thread title aren't any better either and just results in further bad blood.

[MrFlibble]

ReaperAA, on 30 August 2020 - 03:36 AM, said:

I only wish both parties could have worked together instead of shitting on each other.

There's no need for them to work together, but it'd be nice to have mutual respect instead of pointless rivalry. There's also seemingly nothing anyone can do to make Doom fans appreciate Duke3D more than they do.

I liked Hendricks266's summary of what was changed in Raze and how this might not be desirable. But thankfully, as I understand it, the development of Raze cannot influence the development of EDuke32 or Rednukem in any meaningful way. It's ultimately up to the user to decide which port they like better, after all.

[Phredreeke]

I think it's less a lack of appreciation and more a lack of understanding

[The Battlelord]

Phredreeke, on 30 August 2020 - 08:19 AM, said:

I think it's less a lack of appreciation and more a lack of understanding

"the math routines in Polymost are just like the rest of it: Hideously dirty code doing black magic that is virtually impossible to derive any formula from", lol i knew that! Eduke32 mappers are all dark wizards! what kind of sorcery you do!?

Spoiler

Sorcerers!

[NightFright]

Graf Zahl already stated more than once he doesn't understand how EDuke32 works, at least not fully. Considering that, his attempts to take the code apart and fiddle around with it anyway are... rather ambitious, to put it in a diplomatic way.

[gibfrag]

ReaperAA, on 30 August 2020 - 03:36 AM, said:

As someone who is into both Doom and Duke/Build games and their communities, seeing the past few posts on this thread and the posts on the "Doucheworld thread" make me pretty sad that there exists such a divide between the 2 communities.

Now regarding this Raze vs EDuke32 situation, I don't wish bad for any port and I want both ports to do well. Each of these offer something for me that the other doesn't. EDuke32 has Ion Fury support, better modding support for newer mods and palette emulation, while Raze has better VSync (smoother framerate) and better mouse handling for me. I only wish both parties could have worked together instead of shitting on each other. Granted, it was Graf who started this by taking jabs at EDuke32 and this hasn't helped him, not now and not in the past either (Lilith fiasco resulted in many Doomers becoming hostile towards him). But some of the last few posts here and changing of the thread title aren't any better either and just results in further bad blood.

The Doucheworld post was stupid. I'll give you that, but all of the past few posts I've seen in this thread have been legitimate criticisms over Raze and ignorance from others that refuse to accept different opinions. If seeing what people dislike about the port and its developer(s) makes you sad... then maybe you should not look on these types of threads. The title alone should've saddened you away to not even bother to click if you were THAT upset.

You said it yourself anyways. Graf started the BS that created this "divide". Look at how Rednukem and EDuke32 get along yet, hell look at how fucking xduke has gotten along too, EDuke32 isn't trying to kill anyone's port, and neither are Duke fans. Graf might not be trying to kill anyone's port either, but his behavior and attitude (along with some of his flock) don't reflect that view as far as I have seen.

I don't know Graf personally, but I think people hail him to be some sort of authority when he really is only an authority over GZDoom, not Doom as a whole, and definitely not Duke Nukem as a whole either, with or without Raze.

[Phredreeke]

Rednukem is kind of the opposite of Raze. Rednukem shares the same backend code with EDuke32 that Graf rips out for Raze. Meanwhile Raze depends on upstream for game code, while Rednukem's game code is separate from EDuke32's.

[Jimmy]

The problem is that the Raze development team walked into this thinking that the work of Todd Replogle would be like the work of John Carmack.

In reality this is like trying to jump into a painting by Rembrandt and accidentally ending up in a painting by Salvador Dali. Up is down and everything is held together by corn syrup and now you don't know where the fuck you are or why any of this works because it shouldn't but it does.

[Player Lin]

Phredreeke, on 30 August 2020 - 02:57 PM, said:

Rednukem is kind of the opposite of Raze. Rednukem shares the same backend code with EDuke32 that Graf rips out for Raze. Meanwhile Raze depends on upstream for game code, while Rednukem's game code is separate from EDuke32's.

I want to upvote this post but mis-click to downvote...sorry.

[Morpheus Kitami]

Jimmy, on 30 August 2020 - 04:44 PM, said:

The problem is that the Raze development team walked into this thinking that the work of Todd Replogle would be like the work of John Carmack.

In reality this is like trying to jump into a painting by Rembrandt and accidentally ending up in a painting by Salvador Dali. Up is down and everything is held together by corn syrup and now you don't know where the fuck you are or why any of this works because it shouldn't but it does.

Speaking as someone who doesn't really understand all this coding stuff, I think that's true of well, everything coding related. A lot of programmers, especially more novice ones, make code that's really only understandable to them, even with comments. Duke seems to me like something just modern enough to not be simple to understand but just old enough to be appealing to make a port for.

[Jimmy]

Morpheus Kitami, on 30 August 2020 - 08:54 PM, said:

Speaking as someone who doesn't really understand all this coding stuff, I think that's true of well, everything coding related. A lot of programmers, especially more novice ones, make code that's really only understandable to them, even with comments. Duke seems to me like something just modern enough to not be simple to understand but just old enough to be appealing to make a port for.

While that's fair, Doom's engine is notorious for how well built it is. It is easy to understand whats going on if you're an experienced programmer. Duke's engine on the other hand is notorious for how insane it can be. Ken's BUILD engine was already quirky, but Todd was more of an idiot savant compared to Carmack. A lot of the things that have held back speedy development over the years relate to Todd's duct tape and bubblegum approach.

[Tea Monster]

Nobody has ported Duke Nukem 3D to work on an oscilloscope, a digital camera or an MP3 player. This isn't favouritism. The code base, according to accounts that I've read, is a dog's breakfast of hacks.

[Balls of Steel Forever]

I might get hate for this,
but I tried out GZDoom a While back
And it isn't for me per se

I like doomsday alot better,
sure it's not faithful at all
but gzdoom isn't faithful either

If i wanted faithful I'd get chocolatedoom
I like chocolatedoom

The quake sourceport community is more comparablish to how things are going with duke now
I think EDuke32 has already established itself as the quakespasm/vkquake or darkplaces of Duke sourceports.
Raze will probably establish itself in the niche of a FTE or directq equivalent.
I don't think Raze will be a threat, but there's a possibility.

The nice thing about the doom source port community is that there's alot of choices based on individual preference,
This doesn't matter to me with duke, as I'm going to stick to the source port I'm used to (darkplaces for quake, doomsday for doom, Eduke32 for duke)
However I feel like even though I dislike gzs preferences, and that I'm not going to download raze.
Maybe some healthyish hostile competition might be a good thing.

[Tea Monster]

Healthy competition is a good thing. I don't see how this is any kind of threat against EDuke. Multiple Doom and Quake ports exist side-by-side - if not happily, then without actively threatening each other.

I don't understand how you can have a 'hostile fork' as the OP stated in the thread title if you are dealing with open-source software. Isn't that a feature, rather than a problem? You have a different idea on how to make something work, you fork the project and see if your ideas will work. That was my understanding about how all this was supposed to be done.

If Raze eventually gets a next-gen renderer that works, that might be fun. Last time I tried it, I liked how I could open multiple different BUILD games on one engine.

Development seems to have been slow recently, but it will be interesting to see how it develops.

[Phredreeke]

It's more about Graf's attitude.

Tea Monster, on 07 September 2020 - 02:43 PM, said:

Last time I tried it, I liked how I could open multiple different BUILD games on one engine.

[Hendricks266]

http://meatballwiki....iki/HostileFork

A better example than the one given here is libav vs ffmpeg.

[Phredreeke]

Magnets - how do they work?

[NightFright]

That GDX launcher pic is where EDuke32 will hopefully be. One day.

[gibfrag]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't get the obsession with needing all the games to be selectable under one EXE. Is it really that complex to run games on separate EXEs these days?

[MusicallyInspired]

Ease of use for newcomers. Look at ScummVM or MAME. Super popular. I'd rather use DOSBox for adventure games but ScummVM is the pick of choice, even by some of the original developers.

[Mark]

My desktop is always cluttered with separate game and mapster icons for each project or mod. I don't combine things. It leads to trouble sometimes.

[Phredreeke]

Raze ditches EDuke32 and Rednukem

Quote

After months of refactoring work it is finally time to make an announcement. Expect a 0.7 release soon.
This new version will be very different than the last one.

The biggest change has been that I decided to go back to the roots with Duke Nukem support. I removed both the EDuke32 and the RedNukem game module and instead created a new one that is based on older sources that are closer to what the code looked like when 3D Realms released it in 2003. The bases I used for this are: Primarily JFDuke, plus WW2GI extensions from EDuke 2.x and Nuke.YKT's reconstructtion of the original Redneck Rampage code with World Tour support being based on DukeGDX.

[NightFright]

Well, I guess he expects applause for that now. Most reasonable explanation is he considers EDuke32 flawed in some weird, inexplicable way. Or he just wants to do his own thing.

At least he isn't trying any longer to undo the most substantial achievements of EDuke32 in the last few years. It can actually only be for the better, all things considered.

I think it's time to rename the thread again. Suggestion: "Graf Zahl developing... something".

[Mark]

I haven't followed this subject in the last few months and even back then not very closely. I've forgotten what the end goal was. Now it sounds like he is just recreating a redundant port of the original Duke3d experience. Or is he bringing something new to the table?

edit: I gave a quick browse of the first page of the thread. I see the plan is to add a few GZdoom features to Duke3d. So I guess a nevermind is in order for the first part of my post.

[Doom64hunter]

NightFright, on 16 September 2020 - 12:56 PM, said:

I think it's time to rename the thread again. Suggestion: "Graf Zahl developing... something".

"Graf Zahl developing JFDuke fork"

[DisgustedGrunt]

how about "Graf Zahl Razes EDuke code from his port"

[NightFright]

"E-Duke32 is getting E-Razed", to make the pun complete.

[MrFlibble]

Seems like interesting developments!

[Player Lin]

That's sounds better.

Still, it just yet other Build Engine port that with different target users anyway.