[Ninety-Six]

i'd say kill it with fire but it looks like someone already did that

[Radar]

gud j0b Graf!!.!

better than eduk32

[NightFright]

So you can play the game with red tint applied everywhere or what? In that case: Wow.

[ReaperAA]

This bug is already known. Note that the rendering side of things are still being worked on so the classic/8-bit mode is broken in current dev builds for the moment. Rest assured that will get fixed (and a stable release will only happen after it gets fixed).

[Master O]

It is important to note that Raze is currently in Alpha, so all the people celebrating its failures need to keep in mind that it's nowhere near ready.

[Phredreeke]

Given all the jabs Graf have made at Build and EDuke32 I don't think my joke is out of line.

[Hendricks266]

Master O, on 28 August 2020 - 11:10 AM, said:

It is important to note that Raze is currently in Alpha, so all the people celebrating its failures need to keep in mind that it's nowhere near ready.

Raze, verb. To completely destroy what came before.

Graf's conduct shows Raze's posture.

The development we've seen so far has consisted of replacing our functioning systems with code mostly written by Graf, providing less value in the process by breaking feature after feature as they strive to satisfy their Not Invented Here syndrome.

Ken's software renderer was ripped out. I presume they want to write their own. I wonder what will happen when they discover Build doesn't hand them a BSP tree on a silver platter like Carmack's map format does. Even now their hardware acceleration still uses Ken's Polymost algorithm. Just the GPU dispatch and texture management have been replaced.

There is a branch on their repository that removes libdivide, a small library that optimizes integer division by divisors known at runtime but not at compile time. I am sure that the sole reason behind this is that it doesn't fit with Graf's rigid coding style. In practice, this removal is purely a performance downgrade, while the benefit of the library is critical on some platforms such as ARM.

Accurate palette emulation, accurate sound mixing, Fury's new game menu, SSI file loading for the Sunstorm expansions, and Adlib music from the best-in-class Nuked OPL are all casualties of Raze's development principles.

You, Master O, are not one to talk. You have a bad habit on this forum of finding a post from an important person in a thread, and immediately asking them an annoying question unrelated to the topic. Moreover, you originally named this thread "New Build Engine Being Developed", which demonstrates your ignorance and willingness to parrot exaggerated claims.

Phredreeke, on 28 August 2020 - 11:29 AM, said:

Given all the jabs Graf have made at Build and EDuke32 I don't think my joke is out of line.

It's not just jabs, Graf makes outright false statements to prop himself up. For example, his "findings" that he quotes in the thread above are 1) not the source of the issue he originally went looking to diagnose, which actually stems from details of how our timers, game loop, and interpolation work, but they also 2) are a problem he entirely brought on himself by ripping out the texture atlas we implemented to minimize state changes. It only would have come up otherwise when using hightile, which none of the games do, Ion Fury included. Furthermore, our graphics engineer examined his supposed fix and found that 3) while it might increase performance on Nvidia cards, they would likely make it worse on all other vendors. Nvidia cards already get the best performance, so this demonstrates the project's backwards priorities.

Graf made a big deal about linking all the games together into a single binary. However, when he tried to merge the Rednukem and EDuke32 cores together into a single set of code, he abandoned the idea because it was too hard. Likewise, when Rednukem got Duke 64 support which included a port of its renderer to OpenGL, he complained because this code got in the way of his ability to siphon off changes we make as part of our own development that we are capable of doing but he is not. Current plans for unifying the games' modding support consist of bolting on ZScript, a bespoke language based on DECORATE scripting for Doom, "just for the HUD and menus".

Separately, I have been informed that if EDuke32 adopted Raze's code as it stands now and continued development from there, Graf would consider his job done. This is detached from the reality of the damage he has done to it and shows he isn't in it for the long haul. He puffed out his chest and claimed he was saving EDuke32 from itself but has caused more harm than good and his lofty claims have yet to come to fruition. There are formidable challenges ahead of Raze leaving "alpha". They have torn down many pieces that contribute value to our projects, rearranged some other parts, and stabbed in systems from GZDoom, but I have yet to see any significant Construction.

[Fox]

Graf Zahl is free to make a port that fits his preference. However, I don't see Raze's code being useful for anyone who is not Graf Zahl.

[Phredreeke]

Hendricks266, on 28 August 2020 - 02:27 PM, said:

Ken's software renderer was ripped out. I presume they want to write their own. I wonder what will happen when they discover Build doesn't hand them a BSP tree on a silver platter like Carmack's map format does. Even now their hardware acceleration still uses Ken's Polymost algorithm. Just the GPU dispatch and texture management has been replaced.

My understanding is that they're just gonna do Polymost with a software rasterizer.

[Hendricks266]

Phredreeke, on 28 August 2020 - 02:56 PM, said:

My understanding is that they're just gonna do Polymost with a software rasterizer.

They may want to look at Ken's old code for rendermodes 1 and 2. (0 being classic software, 3 being GL Polymost, 4 being Polymer.)

[Fox]

[Ninety-Six]

At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, this really seems to be a result of the already existing bad blood between our two communities, and Graf trying to erase our community from the equation by making his own so that duke4 and eduke are considered "redundant".

Or it's a pure ego trip for him. Or both. Knowing him any are equally likely.

[Morpheus Kitami]

Graf? Erasing something? Nah, there's no history of that. Its not like he had a tantrum so hard about a mod that it ended up in the ZDoom forums Outhouse or anything.

Honestly, if Graf wasn't the lead on the biggest sourceport he'd be persona non grata across the whole community.

[Ninety-Six]

Morpheus Kitami, on 28 August 2020 - 08:11 PM, said:

Graf? Erasing something? Nah, there's no history of that. Its not like he had a tantrum so hard about a mod that it ended up in the ZDoom forums Outhouse or anything.

Honestly, if Graf wasn't the lead on the biggest sourceport he'd be persona non grata across the whole community.

There's probably something to be said for the fact that Raze seems more interested in playing oneupsmanship with eduke and less interested in making a good source port.

I know it's in alpha but the foundation appears to be built on pure spite rather than any general sense of wanting to provide the best experience possible.


Maybe I'm wrong and I sort of hope I am. But given Graf's history as well as how mishandled GZDoom has been in the past in terms of user-friendliness, I kinda have my doubts.


Multiple source ports can be a good thing but I don't have a lot of faith in Raze, personally. Too much stained history to see anything other than spite for eduke.

[gibfrag]

I tried Raze, and found the options menu to work much like GZDoom. I see why people who like GZDoom might prefer a port like this, but I have not found it to be any better than EDuke32 for me as a Duke player. I play in software and don't care about OpenGL much at all. When I tried Raze, it didn't crash or anything and I was able to get through Hollywood Holocaust. I didn't notice the difference in smoothness that has been mentioned here already, but I did find the game to be user configurable much like other ports, but it had a GZDoom feel to the menus. I asked a few questions on Doomworld and got answers from Graf that made me realize that there isn't too much different in terms of modding, which makes me wonder why are some hailing this to be the next best thing since sliced bread? CON editing isn't that hard to do for some of the most basic things. Changing par times and other small things take no time at all. The level editor is not as hard to use as some seem to think it is either. People have been making Duke usermaps for a long time now. There is a 3D mode, a way to select sprites, etc. What is it that is exactly missing that makes it any harder than Doom? Remembering which keys to press? There's plenty of documentation, you can even print them out. Everyone has to learn somewhere, and with this Raze port it appears you won't have to look far, because it requires the same mapping tools as other ports of DN3D. So in my opinion, I'm not going to hate on Graf for what he is doing, but I am not going to blindly follow Raze as the next best thing, because it clearly isn't. It may be the solution for some, and I would have no problem making my projects compatible if I find it necessary to do so in the future, but I'm sticking with what I know when it comes to playing the game for myself, and that's EDuke32.

I have seen this same sort of drama in the Wolfenstein 3D community. If you think this community is small, then you really don't know what small is until you've been there. Everyone knows everybody there. Wolfenstein 3D modding has always had its quirks that only Wolf 3D modders truly understand. ECWolf comes along, which supports all the games (at least Wolf 3D, SOD, and the "Lost Episodes") under one EXE, doesn't require you to do nearly any of the things you'd have to do with the DOS code or even SDL code to make a mod, and it caught on very quickly with the Doom community. ECWolf having similar systems to what you'd see in a port like ZDoom made an impact in giving fans of Doom the chance to make some Wolfenstein 3D mods in a way familiar to them, but it didn't make the same impact with the Wolf 3D community. Instead, a few took strong interests into ECWolf, while many others chose to ignore it and stick with the original DOS or SDL way of doing things and it has been that way ever since. I think a very similar situation will happen here, but the thing ECWolf has going for it is you can mod it more like ZDoom, but with Raze it doesn't give you any advantage to developing a Duke mod compared to EDuke32, so what is the advantage then here?

[markanini]

So far Raze runs best on my system out of all available source ports. I couldn't care less about about the egos of developers. I only get skeptical about claims of accuracy when the Duke64 port clearly lacks the video and audio filtering of the original.

[Hendricks266]

markanini, on 28 August 2020 - 09:34 PM, said:

So far Raze runs best on my system out of all available source ports. I couldn't care less about about the egos of developers.

I know you're just saying that since you've lackeyed up to Graf after getting banned from the Blood and Duke4 Discords.

markanini, on 28 August 2020 - 09:34 PM, said:

I only get skeptical about claims of accuracy when the Duke64 port clearly lacks the video and audio filtering of the original.

There is always more to build. Could you tell me where in GZDoom I can enable three-point filtering?

[markanini]

Hendricks266, on 28 August 2020 - 11:37 PM, said:

I know you're just saying that since you've lackeyed up to Graf after getting banned from the Blood and Duke4 Discords.


There is always more to build. Could you tell me where in GZDoom I can enable three-point filtering?

So what? Raze fixed issues for me since the first release, many of the same issue I brought up with the eDuke32 team over the years that are still unresolved. I'd still give credit to your team for the ground work. Exactly what good does do if I offer you sycophantic loyalty you seem to demand?
3-point filtering is moot for Build and Doom games, none shipped with it. DN64 used it's own renderer.

[gibfrag]

 4733010-8380799852-dukex.jpg (287.28K)
Number of downloads: 47

[NightFright]

I was kinda excited about Raze at first, but then I realized EDuke32 has everything I ever needed from a proper Duke3D port, even more so after Polymost rendering got even more refined and Adlib/SF2 selection options got added. That and ofc you have some of the best mods that only work with EDuke32.

Raze would first have to get there, and since Graf seems to be busy taking it apart to turn it into what he would like it to be, I just don't see the point in waiting for something we already have. Playing Duke3D with a GZDoom-like system or menu is probably an amusing gimmick, but if you look beyond that, there isn't really much. That's why I just tried it once, went back to EDuke32 again and never looked back.

[Jblade]

not to jump in on the circlejerk but Raze containing the hideous default menus of GZDoom told me all I needed to know about the port.

[Phredreeke]

markanini, on 29 August 2020 - 12:22 AM, said:

DN64 used it's own renderer.

It's funny you mention this given Graf's complaints about Nuke putting the DN64 renderer in the RedNukem source code.

[Jimmy]

>thinking the Nintendo 64's shitty blurriness is a fucking feature

lol

[Putrid Pete]

I was one of the first to notice Graf's little jabs at Build and EDuke32 before Raze was even a thing. I remember talking about it in the forum's discord, and speculation was made that he must have been working on his own port for Build games, which turned out to be true. Back then I expressed my disdain for these disparaging remarks while admittedly engaging in some of my own; what I ran into as a result was a very strange cult of personality that has been constructed around GZ. I am in no way denying that he is talented, but the almost messianic attention that he gets, complete with disciples that overlook and protect his gospel, is kind of insane. Considering he is very flawed as a person as exemplified during the whole lilith.pk3 fiasco, his always out of control ego and his poor communication skills evidenced by this Raze situation itself, it is inevitable that much like all figures that reach a particular mythical status through an epic rise, he is setting himself up for a hard fall. Staying grounded can be an antidote to this type of situations, but that is hard to do when you are the creator of the most popular Doom source port and have surrounded yourself with individuals that praise you indiscriminately without giving you a reality check, at least not often enough.

I suppose I don't share an adoration for Graf that a lot of people seem to have because Doom isn't really that important to me as a game. It's not even my favorite Doom Engine game. That distinction goes to Strife. I started using source ports really late, mostly because I hadn't concerned myself with anything other than Dosbox until around January of 2019. GZDoom was the first port I tried and used it for about two or three weeks until I switched to Chocolate Doom for the main games and Crispy for mods. As a result, I don't have any emotional attachments to it and if you couple that with the fact that I'm simply not that interested in Doom mods, you can understand why I am not in constant awe of his work. It's not a disregard of it, but it simply plays no role in my gaming experience for the most part. I usually stick to playing the official releases of Doom Engine games myself. I have tried several mods, but not enough to consider GZDoom a necessity. There's a reason I have a duke4 account and not a zdoom or even doomworld one.

Now, regardless of my feelings towards Graf, I was looking forward to trying out his port. I can separate the creator from the creation just fine, and any new attempt to create a source port for games I like is something that I welcome and wish to see succeed. For this matter I went in with an open mind and put aside my bias as best I could to appreciate Raze in separation of any petty squabbles. I'm not a programmer nor am I familiar with coding or anything related to it, so I can only give you the perspective of a regular user. In that sense, there simply wasn't anything I needed from Raze that I wasn't getting already from the ports I had. If anything, it currently offers me less because it doesn't have the classic renderer that I use for all Build games with the exception of Ion Fury, for which I prefer Polymost. I can't vouch for some sort of increased performance or stability that some users have experienced with it: personally, I felt no particular improvement on these regards as opposed to what I experienced with EDuke32 and variants. I'm just speculating here, and keep in mind that I don't mean this in any sort of negative light but more of a reflection of events, but the strange identity crisis that Raze suffers from has me wondering if it is due to how it came about: Graf wanted his own way of playing Build games and therefore made his fork to tweak the experience to his liking. That doesn't sound like a passion project to me, and the end result speaks of that. Perhaps after he was done playing the games in the manner he wanted, it has now became obvious to him that Raze served it's purpose and this is why development has stagnated somewhat. Maintaining GZDoom alone must be hard enough work, and to add the majority of Build games to the workload, with many people also expecting to see extended modding capabilities added as well has to really weigh in on anybody, specially if the project isn't coming from a place of passion and fandom. Now like I said, this is just speculation I've engaged in and for all I know Graf has a lot of passion for Raze and is currently working on some super duper update that will turn the thing around into an essential addition to all Build ports. Granted I don't believe that is the case, but my point is that I'm happy to wait and see what happens.

Since I know my post could be misinterpreted I should end things by clarifying my stance regarding some things: I don't hate Raze and I wish to see it succeed. I also don't hate Graf himself, just not a fan of his attitude and the way he can conduct himself at times. I like and enjoy Doom thoroughly, and the fact that I have little interest in its modding scene is in no way a criticism or dismissal of it. It's simply a reality of the type of player that I am, being more into Quake mods and Build mods due to personal preference. The fact that I like them better doesn't mean I think other modding scenes suck.

[Forge]

[Phredreeke]

Salty Chicken said:

If there was usable code for these games it might be possible in the future. But having the choice between backporting GDX's Java code and trying to work with the half-finished stuff of Witchaven and TekWar in the NBlood repo, I'd rather put this off.

Source: https://www.doomworl...um/post/2178930

[markanini]

Phredreeke, on 29 August 2020 - 05:27 AM, said:

It's funny you mention this given Graf's complaints about Nuke putting the DN64 renderer in the RedNukem source code.

That's because I'm not Graf. It tells of how your're unaware that people outside your circle can operate as individuals.

[Phredreeke]

Well this thread isn't called Markanini developing hostile EDuke32 fork

[Player Lin]

markanini, on 29 August 2020 - 09:23 AM, said:

That's because I'm not Graf. It tells of how your're unaware that people outside your circle can operate as individuals.

So what? TBH, the same thing can be apply to them too, if you really following both side.

It(saying such things) won't get anywhere and just increasing this so called "hostile" situation...

[Phredreeke]

Player Lin, on 30 August 2020 - 03:19 AM, said:

So what? TBH, the same thing can be apply to them too, if you really following both side.

It(saying such things) won't get anywhere and just increasing this so called "hostile" situation...

Have you ever owned a business?