[Sanek]

ck3D, on 10 April 2020 - 02:01 PM, said:

Sanek - so far that's obviously a working title, but I might end up keeping it, I just realized there was some PlayStation game with that name already too, whole thing is probably going to be done in at least a year or two anyway - who knows what might happen by then. Also, I think right now I would love to make a space map.

Allright. It'll be very cool to have a space map from you - it seems like you avoid making any like a plague or something. If you'll ever make one, it should be called "fish out of water". ;)

[ck3D]

"Protozoid Slimer Breaks Out Of Shell"

[Merlijn]

Great to see you making so much progress CK3D! The screenshots look really nice.
Fun thing is, I also made a tribute to that same room in my latest AA map. So you're not the only one who really likes that room haha.
Although I have to say yours looks a lot better. ;)

I'm also making solid progress with my map, it's currently at 1026 sectors so it broke the old limits (for some reason, I still consider that to be a milestone).
Currently playing around with red lightning and heavy contrasts, which is a lot of fun. Pretty proud of this room:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/482426023963787266/698430083291021312/shaky3red.png?width=996&height=560

[ck3D]

Thanks, Merlijn! Which map is it that you made in that new AA installment? I've only seen reviews and videos so far - the whole piece looks so coherent it's hard for me to distinguish different people's styles in the mapping.

Looking forward to your map as well as Maarten's. Loving the 2005 AMC vibe hitting this thread for the past few weeks. Shot looks really moody, could see the scenery in a Red map (literally, too)!

[Merlijn]

Thanks! I made the final map in the new AA episode, Illegal alien. But I don't think any of the streamers actually found that secret room yet haha.

[oasiz]

Some cool stuff here ;)

FYI, Shadow warrior also had the red room in E1L1

[Mark]

I also had fun with the E1L1 secret room. On the far end is a girl cooking body parts for the liztroopers.
In the ceiling is the front of Duke's ship from the crash sequence at the level start.

Attached thumbnail(s)

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[ck3D]

Love that style of visual storytelling! Ship remains are a nice touch.

You added a girl, I added a second martini - could it be the current lockdown that's making people subconsciously yearn for company?

Currently at 12121 walls (...) with the three quarters of the outdoor area done. Resources really are getting tighter but hopefully I can still cram all my things in, if I have to prioritize one aspect that'll be the gameplay over the detailing but I kinda want the quality of both the atmosphere and the action to be on equal footing.

[Mark]

There have been a few times I reached the 16,000 wall limit and had to look over the map and decide what I could delete to make room for the "neat new thing" I wanted to map.

[Kyanos]

I've been working on a small dm map. Very shy of the wall limit, inspired by iod style head to head maps.

[Dukebot]

It seems that everyone loves that secret from E1L1, I remember loving that secret on Duke Nukem 64, but never thought about doing a tribute. All of them look really nice!

Mark, on 11 April 2020 - 06:19 AM, said:

There have been a few times I reached the 16,000 wall limit and had to look over the map and decide what I could delete to make room for the "neat new thing" I wanted to map.

Yeah, soon I will have to start doing that. I am on 14500+ walls and I've already identifiyed some areas where I will simplify the geometry. Thinking about doing columns octagonal or hexagonal since circular shapes are the ones that most consume in wall speaking.

Here's some progress!

https://i.imgur.com/gL18z1y.png

[ck3D]

Looking great, I'm really liking how you're giving each region (they look too large to be called zones at this point) of your map different atmospheres and 'color codes', also your shadows look so much better now. Maybe that staircase should also cast some, if you end up finding yourself with walls left (ha!), that's just nitpicking though, most players probably won't even realize its absence.

[Dukebot]

ck3D, on 12 April 2020 - 01:18 PM, said:

Looking great, I'm really liking how you're giving each region (they look too large to be called zones at this point) of your map different atmospheres and 'color codes', also your shadows look so much better now. Maybe that staircase should also cast some, if you end up finding yourself with walls left (ha!), that's just nitpicking though, most players probably won't even realize its absence.

Thanks for your comment! Yeah, following your shadow advice I've been applying into all things that clearly cast shadow. I've obviated the small terrain elevation because there's simply too much of them and I won't have walls for all of that. But besides that I've been putting shadows almost everywhere I could! Yeah, stair shadow is wall consuming, maybe I'll do a simplifyed stair shadow version.

As for "colour codes" I love to mix multiple environments inside the same map so it don't look all the same and gets repetitive. I also did this on my old map Europe, but I did it in a bad way, were transitions from one environment to other where too forced and didn't feel natural. This time, I've added variation but I'm trying that this things fit the environment in a natural way and not seem to be putted there by force.

[Sanek]

ck3D said earlier that he often makes the bare layout of the map right from the start. I wonder how much of you people is making maps like that? Is there any "benefits" in comparison to the regular stage-by-stage method?

[Ninety-Six]

I never realized how popular that one lone secret room was...

Merlijn, on 10 April 2020 - 11:13 PM, said:

Pretty proud of this room:

Man, that looks so gorgeous. It's amazing what can be done with one single color when combined with strong shadowing.

Super looking forward to when this releases.

[oasiz]

Sanek, on 13 April 2020 - 10:14 AM, said:

ck3D said earlier that he often makes the bare layout of the map right from the start. I wonder how much of you people is making maps like that? Is there any "benefits" in comparison to the regular stage-by-stage method?

I tend to do both.

My go-to tool is to use mspaint and a 256x256 "bitmap" where I just doodle areas.

Powerslave map (first map from rtr)
https://i.imgur.com/a2djWZB.png

Attached also is the start for zone3 in fury, I went a bit further than this but you can kind of see the start of the lobby area.
Also is attached a hypotetical Doom map I did back in 2015 or so.

I started level design by doodling things on grid paper before I knew how to use any tool (or even had access to!).
To answer the question, I do a bit of both. I find it very easy to visualize a whole map in "3D" inside my head and travel around.

While I did the first floor of zone3 this way, I sketched the rest of the floors in mapster way back in 2015 and worked on from there.
Final product is quite changed visually and I can't help myself when it comes to adding more and more interconnections.

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[brullov]

I've tried several times to do a blockout first and always had no success. I love to go slowly from beginning to the end, part by part. Get inspiration from what is done and move further.

[ck3D]

Sanek, on 13 April 2020 - 10:14 AM, said:

ck3D said earlier that he often makes the bare layout of the map right from the start. I wonder how much of you people is making maps like that? Is there any "benefits" in comparison to the regular stage-by-stage method?

That's not exactly true, I've only done it for a whole map once as an experiment and that was Siebenpolis. Sometimes I just like the idea of a Duke 3D level being essentially three-dimensional terrain that's fun to jump around and explore the raw intricacies of in the first place, just in a certain camouflage and then make use of the Build sector effects to manipulate said environment around the gameplay (i.e.. when you realize a specific sector connecting two places would be perfect for this or that trick in a player's progression, etc.), as opposed to improvising the design of successions of rooms without even just elements of a bigger picture for context. If anything though, that map demonstrated the limitations of such an approach to me in that working from the outside in won't just magically make for the lack of a specific idea or theme for it to support - in the case of Siebenpolis the map turned out to be so large it wasn't really functional as a city level anymore, because all the indoors areas were so disconnected and spread apart - if anything, out of the same terrain I should have made a canyon map. Working on that map was really a formative experience though and taught me a whole new scope to consider and study level layouts under.

Nowadays I'll still occasionally do it for map sections (i.e.. big outdoor plazas, large building interiors) where it just makes sense to design a coherent architecture and layout first to then fill in as opposed to just improvising little decorative rooms with no form and barely any vital function. The more monumental the construction, the further back the mapper's hindsight should be set in my opinion. A factory and a small apartment should probably be approached differently, for instance (the small apartment being an individual unit, the factory representing one hopefully cohesive and interconnected ensemble of similar-sized units). I'm guessing that type of big scale approach is probably the best way to design space levels and hi-tech bases too.

I think what I meant to say is it's not necessarily a bad thing to build stage by stage, but it's probably better to start doing it once you know exactly what it is you're drawing as in, when you have a structured and detailed vision of bigger chunks of the map (if not the whole thing), for them to have actual style and not just feel like little spontaneous bits that were just hand knit together eventually.

[Mister Sinister]

The epidemic is the perfect time to resume working on DN3D maps.
Here's a thingie:
https://sun9-15.userapi.com/c854220/v854220886/21e0a4/ieNN2U9LaT0.jpg

[ck3D]

Nice thingie! Pretty classic looking, the fact that your loading dock incorporates lights probably calls for stronger contrast in the shading of that section though. For instance it makes little sense that the diagonal wall on the right appears to have the same shade value as the one further back (with the large door) when they are positioned at different distances from the light sources, or that the ceiling is looking so uniformly dark. As it is right now, this room is actually the opportunity for some great lighting/shading, I'm guessing you plan on considering this type of stuff later but in its current state already, I think it would lend itself very well even to some simple lighting effects (working/blinking/cycling lights etc.).

Besides this little nitpicking, I like the vertical action, structure/geometry of the room and trimwork.

[Dukebot]

Mister Sinister, on 14 April 2020 - 10:30 AM, said:

The epidemic is the perfect time to resume working on DN3D maps.
Here's a thingie:
https://sun9-15.userapi.com/c854220/v854220886/21e0a4/ieNN2U9LaT0.jpg

This is looking good! It reminds me a little bit of quake1, maybe for the geometry of the map, not sure, but it's really nice!

[Mister Sinister]

Here's another thingie and that's it for now.
https://sun9-50.userapi.com/c855532/v855532100/21e34c/WmDgU3t6nGA.jpg

Thanks for the lighting tips. I'll see what I can do, but for now the main focus is getting the layout of the map done and all things gameplay.

Quote

This is looking good! It reminds me a little bit of quake1, maybe for the geometry of the map, not sure, but it's really nice!

It is a bit quake inspired though not through the obviously restricted colour palette, but in the way the difficulty is implemented. Play HEALTH to see what I mean as this new map is part of the series I plan to release.
The general look and feel is a bit of everything: Doom, Quake, classic DN levels - you name it.

[ck3D]

Wow I just realized I don't think I ever played Health. Adding it to the never-ending (sigh) queue of sweet looking maps I'm trying to play when I can. Kinda waiting for the right impulse to go on a map marathon and catch up with tons of releases I've been missing.

The layout of that room looks like a lot of fun by the way, digging the use of the vertical axis/jumping mechanics (or so I'm assuming) and that detail with the broken frame is well done and a welcome addition to the atmosphere. Most of the time this type of detail in user maps can feel forced, but here it totally fits right in with the style and environment.

[Darkus]

I'm thinking to regroup the official addons in one directory, and giving them the same treatment that I did with my GAME.CON fixes (maybe more by adding some remade enemies that are in the community stockpile):

https://i.postimg.cc/3N0z613b/duke-addons-mockup.png

Anyone knows if that feasible?

[Ninety-Six]

I can't comment to the feasibility, but I am certainly in support of the idea (to the con fixes at least if nothing else. Ever since I discovered your fixes I've pretty much refused to play without them. Seeing the same done to the expansions would be awesome and bring total cohesion to my Duke 3D setup).


Actually, I may have one suggestion. Some time ago some dude did something similar for Doom, wrapping up every single official classic doom release into one single file. He wrote an external program to do this, extracting data from those official wads (as proof you owned them) to create the combination (there were some minor texture glitches so the result wasn't perfect, but that's neither here nor there). I admit my knowledge on how this all works is limited, but in theory you might be able to pull something similar. However I would imagine the result would need to place the new textures in different tilesets that don't overlap, and probably adjust each individual map file so that they redirect to the appropriate new locations. Probably something similar for the enemies too since some of those enemies overwrote the base monsters. No idea how the caribbean weapons would work though...

I don't think this will apply for PnP though, since currently the only real way to play it is through the TMTC, with all the chunky PS1 textures and sounds. There is that unofficial PnP recreation, but having played both pretty thoroughly several times... the recreation was nice before the TMTC was done, but is not really very accurate. It lacked all of the new art and pig varieties, and a lot of the level design was a bit buggy. There would need to be some kind of demake/remake/remastering I think, unless there is some way to insert all of that as-is into this theoretical supergroup file. But that's also way beyond even my limited (and possibly entirely wrong) understanding.

[Mark]

Sounds like it might overlap some of what Firefly Trooper has been working on. Maybe combine ideas or work already done if possible.

[oasiz]

Problem is that in build things are referenced by index numbers and not letter tokens.
There is a ton of hardcoded behavior, CON needs to be compiled on bootup and whatnot.

To get a "seamless" experience, you'd have to hand construct a lot of things painstakingly.
Each textured enemy variant in carib would need to be a new enemy essentially in order not to overlap existing things.

TCs outright overwrite elements, they do not co-exist with the original game data.

Closest you could get without tons of manual labor is some way to soft relaunch the whole game with new assets but this again would need something specifically planned for eduke, i.e. a mod template that tells what assets to load, etc... There have been discussions but that's all.

[Phredreeke]

Ninety-Six, on 19 April 2020 - 03:09 AM, said:

I don't think this will apply for PnP though, since currently the only real way to play it is through the TMTC, with all the chunky PS1 textures and sounds.

For most part they still use the same tilenums. For my upscale pack I replaced the textures with ones from the PC version recoloured to look like the PS1 counterparts.

Ninety-Six, on 19 April 2020 - 03:09 AM, said:

There is that unofficial PnP recreation, but having played both pretty thoroughly several times... the recreation was nice before the TMTC was done, but is not really very accurate. It lacked all of the new art and pig varieties, and a lot of the level design was a bit buggy.

There are several. The one in the Duke Nukem addon compilation is rather basic, but there's another one that uses the ripped PS1 art and gets pretty damn close

[Ninety-Six]

Phredreeke, on 19 April 2020 - 08:38 AM, said:

For most part they still use the same tilenums. For my upscale pack I replaced the textures with ones from the PC version recoloured to look like the PS1 counterparts.



There are several. The one in the Duke Nukem addon compilation is rather basic, but there's another one that uses the ripped PS1 art and gets pretty damn close

I only knew of the former, but that second one could be a possible candidate I suppose.

[Fox]

Darkus, on 19 April 2020 - 01:51 AM, said:

Anyone knows if that feasible?

There's a lot of conflict between the code of each one.

If possible, it's not really worth the work it would take.