[Perro Seco]

Mark, on 30 March 2020 - 08:37 AM, said:

the first screen shot

First screenshot shows how jumping becomes suddenly useless. ;)

[Mark]

Jump height was already limited in code to keep the player from jumping on top of zombie hoardes. ;) I still think its better than having an invisible blocking wall with no explanation why you can't get past it. The barriers at least give you a hint you weren't meant to go past.

I think it was oasiz that posted about having a secret way to get into a non-playable area. I did that in an upcoming project. The map ends within a couple of seconds after reaching it so whether its considered a "playable area)...

[Mark]

Good question. With the exception of the one example I just mentioned, non playable means the player never enters it. I guess I should use the term non-enterable because if there is an enemy it could be shot in that area if you shoot between the blocking gaps. Most times there are no shootable enemies. Just architecture.

[Merlijn]

To me, unreachable areas are like custom skyboxes. They're there to provide some context and scale to your location, and they can make a map more immersive.
For instance, Shaky Grounds wouldn't be the same without those broken city scapes in the background.

You just have to make sure that the borders of the playable area are well defined and that the playable area itself isn't too small.
Being against unreachable areas just because Romero said something 28 years ago seems needlessly purist to me.

[Lazy Dog]

yet even e1m1 had one unreachable area.

[Fauch]

it also makes me think original Duke maps tend to be enclosed with tall bland buildings using repeated textures. If a building stands out, you can usually enter it.
Now if a building stood out, but couldn't be entered, had no gameplay purpose, would that be kind of an unreachable area, something players would think they should be able to enter?

There was mention of Half Life 2, from what I remember playable areas were often enclosed with walls / rocks too high to climb, so it was obvious anything beyond was just for look. Of course this gets more complicated when you can have a jetpack.

[ck3D]

Been doing some progress, celebrating 1111 sectors and breaking the old wall limit (well, this, not so much) with more sneak peaks at map two, first one is a simple pharmacy I did a few days ago, second one is a bit more representative of the rest of the map although only a tiny fraction of it, I built that section months ago, it's just some moody shot because again I'm trying to save all the sweet stuff, pretty bare because I place decorative sprites and detail in open sections last. Also background will have something eventually but right now you can have fun imagining the texture 0 wall in the far, undistinguishable background if you want (not recommended).

Map scale is getting seriously ridiculous, not just on the horizontal / vertical axis in terms of looks but also in terms of distances to cover and terrain variation, honestly I think it will make for some pretty unique gameplay, I'm not worried about finding workarounds for the troubling aspects of the experience bigger scale maps can represent but by the wall limit closing in, every time. I'm at half of them now, but I feel like there's way more I would like to put into this one than twice what's already there. Ah well as usual I'll somehow make it work.

Side note - it's kind of funny how I'm easing into the habit of building specific city map segments to the point of increasingly successfully guessing in advance how many resources this and that construction should take up beforehand, and starting to think of them like actual currency. Like OK, I want to build a train system with two stations, this will cost roughly 350 sectors, I can do it. But then I'll be dry bones for this and that other specific thing, so I gotta pick wisely, etc. It almost feels like putting pieces of a puzzle together as I'm drawing it.

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[Sanek]

@ck3d it's cool that you can actually estimate how much sectors you'll spend here and there (sectors counter is not as critical as walls though). What I'm usually doing is just keeping thing low, i.e. don't make everything super-detailed right of the bat, even if my maps rarely if ever reach any kind of a limit.


On the side note, I was thinking about my Dark Seed/Station sequel and I'm kinda confused right now. I want to make the next map more story-driven, with you reading logs and stuff like that. And the space station that will have all the stuff you expect like cargo bay, crew quarters, mess hall etc...so it'll be Dark Seed all over again? I don't know if it'll make much sense, making essentially the same map but with only slightly different layout and story. I have some kind of unique gameplay in mind that'll require some CON enhanced stuff, but don't know if it'll justify the semi-remake of sorts. Dark Station was the only map of mine that gave me sort of 100% satisfaction with it, to the point when the sequel can be a let-down.


It sucks that Dark Seed was a better-known map (since Loke made a video on yt) than Dark Station (which is so much better) and it's presumable sequel if it'll ever be made. ;)

[ck3D]

There are no rules but the ones in your head, you should totally feel free to work on and release any map with the concept of your choice without worrying too much about reception as long as you yourself are satisfied with your body of work, and confident in your output. Go for whatever you're inspired for or else what, you're probably going to settle for something less exciting to you and make a worse map (in general that's exactly how bad maps happen).

Feel you on the wall limit, forever the average Build creative's arch-nemesis.

[Dukebot]

ck3D, on 02 April 2020 - 05:05 PM, said:

Been doing some progress, celebrating 1111 sectors and breaking the old wall limit (well, this, not so much) with more sneak peaks at map two, first one is a simple pharmacy I did a few days ago, second one is a bit more representative of the rest of the map although only a tiny fraction of it, I built that section months ago, it's just some moody shot because again I'm trying to save all the sweet stuff, pretty bare because I place decorative sprites and detail in open sections last. Also background will have something eventually but right now you can have fun imagining the texture 0 wall in the far, undistinguishable background if you want (not recommended).

Map scale is getting seriously ridiculous, not just on the horizontal / vertical axis in terms of looks but also in terms of distances to cover and terrain variation, honestly I think it will make for some pretty unique gameplay, I'm not worried about finding workarounds for the troubling aspects of the experience bigger scale maps can represent but by the wall limit closing in, every time. I'm at half of them now, but I feel like there's way more I would like to put into this one than twice what's already there. Ah well as usual I'll somehow make it work.

Side note - it's kind of funny how I'm easing into the habit of building specific city map segments to the point of increasingly successfully guessing in advance how many resources this and that construction should take up beforehand, and starting to think of them like actual currency. Like OK, I want to build a train system with two stations, this will cost roughly 350 sectors, I can do it. But then I'll be dry bones for this and that other specific thing, so I gotta pick wisely, etc. It almost feels like putting pieces of a puzzle together as I'm drawing it.

The screens are looking really good and if you've surprassed 1000+ sector then I suppose that this map it's quite big! Looking forward to see more images.

[ck3D]

Thanks, yeah this is map 2 of an episode, map 1 is pretty big too with 2200+ sectors IIRC, managed to fit it just under the wall limit, hopefully this one will be alright too. I wish I could show more too because I keep building stuff I'm happy with but the episode follows a certain concept that is nothing revolutionary at all, but I would still like to keep a surprise if I can manage to, and showing all those constructions would be a giveaway. But yeah I've been into large scale levels these days, that's also why I'm looking forward to your map, big open spaces with massive constructions make for the best Duke environments in my opinion, I always wished I could make them and am just now getting there which is satisfying.

[Dukebot]

ck3D, on 03 April 2020 - 02:24 PM, said:

Thanks, yeah this is map 2 of an episode, map 1 is pretty big too with 2200+ sectors IIRC, managed to fit it just under the wall limit, hopefully this one will be alright too. I wish I could show more too because I keep building stuff I'm happy with but the episode follows a certain concept that is nothing revolutionary at all, but I would still like to keep a surprise if I can manage to, and showing all those constructions would be a giveaway. But yeah I've been into large scale levels these days, that's also why I'm looking forward to your map, big open spaces with massive constructions make for the best Duke environments in my opinion, I always wished I could make them and am just now getting there which is satisfying.

Great job, I will try to play your first episode map then when I have some time. If there is a thread for that map let me know and I will post my opinion there when I have finished it.

[ck3D]

Dukebot, on 04 April 2020 - 02:54 AM, said:

Great job, I will try to play your first episode map then when I have some time. If there is a thread for that map let me know and I will post my opinion there when I have finished it.

Ha thanks, for your interest too, regarding map 1 I'm keeping sitting on all the levels until I can release the whole pack at once, so that's definitely not going to be for today (I'm estimating I can make 2/3 maps per year tops) but my latest released map is what finally convinced me I was ready to tackle such a project: https://forums.duke4...e-poison-heart/ it's already quite large, not exactly on the scale I'm going for with those two first maps that are more open and twice the size, and I guess it has its flaws but upon completing it I did feel like OK, I can now go in for the real thing.

Work usually gets in the way of mapping and makes my rhythm unpredictable a lot but right now with the lockdown I can be back at it to a comfortable extent and try to make 100 sectors a day on average, so the progression stays real.

[Maarten]

Looks good here, folks!
@MRCK I reconize some things you're pointing out, I even have to "split" my idea in at least 2 maps haha. Gotta love that shadow @ staircas shot.

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Meanwhile I've LOTS of inspiration while building on my map. It will contain a HUUUGE outdoor town location (more about that...later!), but I also felt like mapping some inside locations to make this town feel more "alive". Keep in mind: I might be polishing it a bit more in the futher.
Right now it's 1260+ sectors, 10100+ walls.

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[ck3D]

Hahaha, is that a Funny Comedy Dog that I'm seeing?

Thanks, it's funny our WIP maps currently are at the exact same stage, not even kidding. I've been happy with my progress too so I can relate to the stoke you're feeling!

Love the style in those screenshots. Last one in particular is so sweet with the creamy textures and architecture work. Good luck with the rest!

[Sanek]

@ck3D, Maarten - you should make a map together! ;)

[Dukebot]

Maarten, on 05 April 2020 - 04:03 AM, said:

Looks good here, folks!
@MRCK I reconize some things you're pointing out, I even have to "split" my idea in at least 2 maps haha. Gotta love that shadow @ staircas shot.

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Meanwhile I've LOTS of inspiration while building on my map. It will contain a HUUUGE outdoor town location (more about that...later!), but I also felt like mapping some inside locations to make this town feel more "alive". Keep in mind: I might be polishing it a bit more in the futher.
Right now it's 1260+ sectors, 10100+ walls.

Liked to read 1260+ sectors and 10100+ walls, this means that another huge map is comming, love this kind of maps, and for the screenshoots it is looking really good!


I'm also working on a big map (at the moment 1100+ sectors, 13500+ walls), in my case it's an outdoors land with some temples, a cementery, some old ruins and stuff like that. Right now I'm trying to give some "vitality" to this natural landscapes:

https://i.imgur.com/av4Hwjc.png

[ck3D]

Sanek, on 05 April 2020 - 04:55 AM, said:

@ck3D, Maarten - you should make a map together! ;)

Honestly I have a concept ready if anyone is down, was planning to use it for a possible future one-off level of mine but it would work well with the community project format (and then maybe it would also come out); now let's hold our horses, realistically everybody seems to be focused on their personal projects with real life on the side, so I'm not sure many people would have the luxury for something like this (I suspect a lot of them are only getting ahead in their own stuff because of the lockdown, too, at least that's my case). I do have pleasant memories of sending map files back and forth with Maarten for AMC Pleaser though, or even Roch Island, wow, time flies.

The only way this could work would be if people needed an outlet to go nuts with on the side of their personal projects to let off some steam, but we're at a stage where most currently active mappers work on their personal projects for fun just to let off some steam in the first place, we'd need 48-hour-long days, or a delivery of Vitamin X.

'Come eat a, delicious. DUKE NUKEM boi-ger'

[11bush]

After a bunch of messing around, I managed to make fire that spreads.

[ck3D]

Was the fuse for some cosmic spree on map two over the last two days, it's now 1400+ sectors and IIRC about 11500 walls (and 4000+ sprites but still missing most of the detailing), in fact I realized that I was closer to finishing the main area than I thought, for the longest time it was still completely open in all fourth main cardinal directions which I thought was going to be a hassle to work with, but then the next natural additions to the level ended up encircling the layout and filling its most major gaps entirely. Now the three main tasks I have left for this map are: 1/ decoration of the few bare buildings/streets left that I'm hoping to make detailed, but hopefully not too resource-consuming, 2/ the underground network of areas I've been envisioning for this level since the start and 3/ the inside of one specific building needs a few more rooms (basically a whole floor). 5000 walls might be extremely tight, so now the challenge really comes down to using those wisely but it's going to be a fun one. Wanted to add a subway system but given the conditions, that's no longer a priority right now (although something I'd still hate to have to pass on).

I'm pretty happy that I just managed to optimize and actually turn into meaningful areas gameplay-wise segments of the map that were originally intended to just be unreachable scenery as well, expending its scale even further than expected. Also somehow managed to pull off an almost map-wide three-second explosion (with subsequent destruction effects) that uses 350+ C9's, that was pretty fun. Map 3 might be closer than I thought it'd be, but now I have to dive back into work for the day.

[Perro Seco]

ck3D, on 07 April 2020 - 02:21 AM, said:

Wanted to add a subway system but given the conditions, that's no longer a priority right now (although something I'd still hate to have to pass on).

I also hope you still can build it, I like maps that use the train effect. ;)

ck3D, on 07 April 2020 - 02:21 AM, said:

I'm pretty happy that I just managed to optimize and actually turn into meaningful areas gameplay-wise segments of the map that were originally intended to just be unreachable scenery as well, expending its scale even further than expected.

I don't want to trigger the previous discussion again, but I think it's a great idea to make most of the areas available to the player.

[ck3D]

Perro Seco, on 07 April 2020 - 03:44 AM, said:

I also hope you still can build it, I like maps that use the train effect. ;)

I don't want to trigger the previous discussion again, but I think it's a great idea to make most of the areas available to the player.

Ha, yeah actually I had you in mind when forced to consider scrapping the subway. 'No! One less treat for Perro Seco!'. I don't think the underground sections I have in mind will be that resource-consuming though (mostly sectors will get eaten up, but I have enough of those left and in those areas, the way I envision them, I expect wall use to be a lot less complex than in other sections of the map), so maybe the subway will be doable, just under the form of the cherry atop of the cake if I can implement it, and so far I've found other ways to speed up walking distances/covering terrain so technically at least the gameplay is safe on that side.

And yeah, no, good on you for referring back to those discussions, they were constructive, but yeah I was agreeing with that point too and tend to try and apply that logic to my current maps as much as possible or else they'd just feel incomplete with the idea of connections missing. In this case it was funny because I legitimately had in mind to build a simple background scenery without expanding the map limits, but then I realized the whole zone could be perfectly retcon'd into the gameplay area without touching anything.

[Slap McBald]

This isn't really anything as of right now but i thought i'd just share it with you.
These are supposed to be storyboards for an opening scene of blood and ice. supposed to replace the nuclear symbol intro.
basically it's supposed to show what happened after duke's battle with the rigelatins (in an alternate version of duke 2's story)

(fyi, cycloidian women are supposed to have human shaped bodies with a weirdly shaped head. they have a human looking mouth with normal teeth. the cycloid emperor's mouth is a common birth defect for male cycloidians)

the nurse is supposed to look like a female firefly trooper. the doctor is a normal assault trooper with a doctor's outfit.
i'll make more of these later.

[ck3D]

From map 2, random little E1L1 secret room tribute with a view:

https://i.imgur.com/iAZyLk1.png

[Mark]

A lot cozier looking than the original. ;)

[Sanek]

Looks like something inspired by Ion Fury to me.


Stop teasing us man. ;)

[ck3D]

Thanks, the idea of remaking this room is directly inspired by Ion Fury now that you mention it, and the cozier take on it makes sense in the level's context. For some reason, that room was one of my favorite locations in the entire game long before I even knew other people also liked it - to this day I have it on my mind with every secret apartment thing I design.

Rest of the level has nothing to do with Ion Fury in terms of looks or settings at all, but I do admire and take notes of the mapping in that game or in the DNF mod - works that really leave me with the impression of the original engine, but pushed to new heights. In general I'm also trying to apply more FPS level design theory I've read or observed in general, and from what I've seen Ion Fury very much got all that right.

[brullov]

Good job ck, love that background buildings https://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

[Sanek]

The only thing I don't like is the title. "Blast Radius" sounds so generic and boring, almost like a space-themed episode of some kind. Something like "Anarchy Rising" would be much more fitting!

[ck3D]

brullov, on 10 April 2020 - 10:38 AM, said:

Good job ck, love that background buildings https://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

Thanks - similar constructions serve as backdrop in both maps so far and complement the sceneries a lot. Always loved that style in beta screenshots and whatnot. As far as the ones in this shot are concerned, there's some funny shenanigans going on in-game with those buildings too, bunch of jokes and detail that I kept out of view here.

Sanek - so far that's obviously a working title, but I might end up keeping it, I just realized there was some PlayStation game with that name already too, whole thing is probably going to be done in at least a year or two anyway - who knows what might happen by then. Also, I think right now I would love to make a space map.