[Forge]

justified wars are justified; wars built on false pretenses are not.

remember the maine

[Kyanos]

Radar 100 Watts, on 10 January 2020 - 08:41 AM, said:

Don't you know Soleimani was an austere religious scholar? Clown world, man.

Is solomon a common iranian name?

[Radar]

Forge, on 10 January 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

justified wars are justified; wars built on false pretenses are not.

remember the maine

How were Vietnam and Iraq built under false pretenses? Vietnam was clearly a war against the communist baddies. As for Iraq, years of Saddam's word games and cryptic language fueled the claim that he had nuclear weapons. The war was part of a series of renewed intervention in the middle-east post-911. And retribution for a failed assassination attempt against a US president was icing on the cake.

Photonic, on 10 January 2020 - 08:55 AM, said:

Is solomon a common iranian name?

Not that wisdom is a common attribute in that region of the world.


Also @thricecursed, could you actually respond instead of blindly downvoting?

[Aristotle Gumball]

Oh it's not blind.

[Danukem]

Radar 100 Watts, on 10 January 2020 - 08:41 AM, said:

I personally just find the whole "War is bad mkay. Our troops should have stayed home since 1945." to be fairly shortsighted and lazy reasoning. Millions of lives were saved because of US intervention in Korea, Chile, pre-revolution Iran, etc. People also have the tendency to view a war as "unjustified" just because we lost, instead of looking at the full context of the millions of lives we were trying to save. Ironically enough, this is something you'd think the left would understand better due to their self-less empathy for the plight of others, but they're even more anti-war as a consequence of their fascination with communism and authoritarianism. According to the left, atrocities only occur within America's borders. But other countries just have their own cUlTuRe. Don't you know Soleimani was an austere religious scholar? Clown world, man.

And btw, regarding the Gulf of Tonkin incident, nobody is saying atrocities aren't a component of war. The difference is, atrocities at home aren't the only ones worth fighting for.

I feel like I've been transported back in time and I'm listening to the neo-con version of myself from 1990. And now I'm the older conservative that was trying to tell me back then that it's not going to accomplish anything useful in the long run. Don't be goaded into supporting a war because people on the left are saying stupid stuff. The Middle-East is not Europe, and it's not Korea.

If this is about the humanitarian goal of saving / improving millions of lives, then it makes infinitely more sense to invade Mexico. Wipe out the cartels. Enforce the rule of law and let them enjoy our bill of rights. Make people who can't afford kids use some goddamn birth control. Fuck that; start with California instead. And for anyone who wants to screenshot this against me someday -- I'M JOKING about some of that.

[Forge]

Radar 100 Watts, on 10 January 2020 - 09:52 AM, said:

How were Vietnam and Iraq built under false pretenses?

we got involved because we "felt" that a U.S. ship (running secret cia operations in north vietnam) was unjustly attacked twice. The first time the U.S. ship was dipping in and out of northern vietnam territorial waters & opened fire first. The second time no attack actually happened, faulty equipment and weather anomalies were blamed by the ship's captain, but that report was buried and ignored.
Bad Intel and cia manipulation

we invaded iraq because we "felt" Saddam had those pesky mass-destruction weapons. The ones that didn't exist. And the very thin connection between the iraqi government and terrorist cells. (a different group of terrorist that weren't directly involved in the 9/11 attacks). Cia operatives made false reports that the iraq government were making purchases of uranium and the equipment to make a radioactive material enrichment centrifuge, in order to produce weapons grade material.
Bad intel and cia manipulation.

those two conflicts are built on a bed of lies.

[Hendricks266]

Mark, on 09 January 2020 - 07:15 AM, said:

I can only speak for myself and those I've talked to that share my opinion on the subject. It has zero to do with racism. We did not like the politician and his policies. So people looked for a legal way to disqualify him for the office. Many of the conservative talking heads say the same. ( the ones not running for re-election )

It's possible to claim something is not racist, and to keep overt racism out of your rhetoric, but still have racist intentions. No one can prove that racism is there, but you cannot provide proof you are 100% racism free even if you claim that. Instead it's simply ambiguous, and it's up to others to make their own judgment. Plausible deniability is awfully convenient.

Mark, on 04 September 2019 - 03:52 PM, said:

Ahh, I'm so happy to see that turd out of the spotlight. Although maybe a spotlight needs to be shined on his activities behind the curtain now.

If you had said "piece of shit" I wouldn't have given it a second thought, but your particular choice of the word "turd" leads me to believe you were referencing his skin color. Again, it's impossible to prove what was inside your head at that moment, but it's a bad look.

Radar 100 Watts, on 09 January 2020 - 07:59 PM, said:

Vietnam was justified.

No, it was not, and that fact is made manifest by the state of US-Vietnam relations today.

Radar 100 Watts, on 09 January 2020 - 07:59 PM, said:

Iraq was also justified.

During Bush Sr.'s first intervention the US damaged Iraq's water supply infrastructure for... reasons(?) and the Iraqi people are still suffering from it today. Even if you claim the atrocities committed against the Kurds as justification, the second Iraq War resulted in a far greater number of civilian casualties.

Radar 100 Watts, on 10 January 2020 - 08:41 AM, said:

Chile, pre-revolution Iran

Do you have any evidence that this saved any lives? "Muh communism bad" isn't evidence.

We armed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan against a moderate democratic state just to piss on the Soviets. How well did that turn out for us in 2001?

[Mark]

Hendricks said: "If you had said "piece of shit" I wouldn't have given it a second thought, but your particular choice of the word "turd" leads me to believe you were referencing his skin color. Again, it's impossible to prove what was inside your head at that moment, but it's a bad look."

And thats the problem. People are looking to be offended. They find racism where it doesn't exist. They actively go out looking for it. Thats their problem not mine. I'm not going to walk on eggshells because of an easily offended SJW. Were I a overt racist I had plenty of other more inflammatory words than turd and would not have been afraid to use them. I used the word turd because in everyday conversation I don't usually swear.

[Danukem]

Mark, on 10 January 2020 - 07:28 PM, said:

I used the word turd because in everyday conversation I don't usually swear.

That's the way I interpreted it, and that's consistent with your other posts. Now if you were constantly swearing up a storm around here, and then suddenly decided to use the word "turd" it would have raised more eyebrows. I don't have any personal dislike for the man, but to each his own.

Plausible deniability, if it's actually plausible, should not be an issue imo. On the other hand, there are cases in which the denial is NOT plausible. For example, if someone frequently has a problem with Jews over the course of many posts, and then makes what seems to be an anti-Jewish slur... well at that point it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Hendricks266]

Mark, on 10 January 2020 - 07:28 PM, said:

Hendricks said: "If you had said "piece of shit" I wouldn't have given it a second thought, but your particular choice of the word "turd" leads me to believe you were referencing his skin color. Again, it's impossible to prove what was inside your head at that moment, but it's a bad look."

And thats the problem. People are looking to be offended. They find racism where it doesn't exist. They actively go out looking for it. Thats their problem not mine. I'm not going to walk on eggshells because of an easily offended SJW. Were I a overt racist I had plenty of other more inflammatory words than turd and would not have been afraid to use them. I used the word turd because in everyday conversation I don't usually swear.

I believe you, especially with Dan's testimony. If I had read more off-topic threads I probably would have picked up on the pattern Dan mentions.

Trooper Dan, on 10 January 2020 - 09:01 PM, said:

Plausible deniability, if it's actually plausible, should not be an issue imo. On the other hand, there are cases in which the denial is NOT plausible. For example, if someone frequently has a problem with Jews over the course of many posts, and then makes what seems to be an anti-Jewish slur... well at that point it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I also agree. There is plenty of room for plausible deniability when considering something rationally.

[Radar]

LMAO @ Evan hunting for racists ghosts. According to the left there's a racist hiding under every nook and cranny of right-wing thought.

thricecursed, on 10 January 2020 - 10:54 AM, said:

Oh it's not blind.

Typical limp-dick response. You have no point.

Trooper Dan, on 10 January 2020 - 10:59 AM, said:

I feel like I've been transported back in time and I'm listening to the neo-con version of myself from 1990. And now I'm the older conservative that was trying to tell me back then that it's not going to accomplish anything useful in the long run. Don't be goaded into supporting a war because people on the left are saying stupid stuff. The Middle-East is not Europe, and it's not Korea.

You're right. These countries cannot be trusted with Democracy or they will elect terrorist regimes as seen with the rise of Hamas and Hezbollah. The best option is to back dictators who will allow their population to live in relative peace and economic freedom, who also back the interests of America. But then those same anti-war Americans will criticize our relationship with Saudi Arabia or Pinochet. There's really no way to make an isolationist happy because any foreign policy action is unwarranted based on principle of it existing.

Trooper Dan, on 10 January 2020 - 10:59 AM, said:

If this is about the humanitarian goal of saving / improving millions of lives, then it makes infinitely more sense to invade Mexico. Wipe out the cartels. Enforce the rule of law and let them enjoy our bill of rights. Make people who can't afford kids use some goddamn birth control. Fuck that; start with California instead. And for anyone who wants to screenshot this against me someday -- I'M JOKING about some of that.

Mexico is not an open threat to the United States via the forces of Communism or Islamic terrorism.

Forge, on 10 January 2020 - 03:52 PM, said:

we got involved because we "felt" that a U.S. ship (running secret cia operations in north vietnam) was unjustly attacked twice. The first time the U.S. ship was dipping in and out of northern vietnam territorial waters & opened fire first. The second time no attack actually happened, faulty equipment and weather anomalies were blamed by the ship's captain, but that report was buried and ignored.
Bad Intel and cia manipulation

You are the one who is misinformed. Vietnam began 9 years before the Gulf of Tonkin incident. The war started in 1955 when we were compelled to take control because the French had screwed up in that area and backed out.

Forge, on 10 January 2020 - 03:52 PM, said:

we invaded iraq because we "felt" Saddam had those pesky mass-destruction weapons. The ones that didn't exist. And the very thin connection between the iraqi government and terrorist cells. (a different group of terrorist that weren't directly involved in the 9/11 attacks). Cia operatives made false reports that the iraq government were making purchases of uranium and the equipment to make a radioactive material enrichment centrifuge, in order to produce weapons grade material.
Bad intel and cia manipulation.

those two conflicts are built on a bed of lies.

I also heard Saddam was a great man who loved children and pets. He will be deeply missed.

Hendricks266, on 10 January 2020 - 05:23 PM, said:

No, it was not, and that fact is made manifest by the state of US-Vietnam relations today.

And this matters why? They are just a useless commie country oppressing their own people on a daily basis.

Hendricks266, on 10 January 2020 - 05:23 PM, said:

During Bush Sr.'s first intervention the US damaged Iraq's water supply infrastructure for... reasons(?) and the Iraqi people are still suffering from it today.

Ok? Criticize the war for what it is, but why is it our fault the third world can't build anything?

Hendricks266, on 10 January 2020 - 05:23 PM, said:

Even if you claim the atrocities committed against the Kurds as justification, the second Iraq War resulted in a far greater number of civilian casualties.

All at the hands of American forces? You sure the neglect these countries have for their own people isn't a major factor?

Hendricks266, on 10 January 2020 - 05:23 PM, said:

Do you have any evidence that this saved any lives? "Muh communism bad" isn't evidence.

Regarding Iran:

Spoiler

Regarding Chile, just compare nationwide deaths at the hands of left-wing dictators and compare it against right-wing dictators.

Here are my, frankly conservative, estimates:

Stalin: 15 million +
Mao: 50 million +
Pol Pot: 1/3 of the country

Pinochet (U.S. installed right-wing dictator): <50,000


Keep in mind that Pinochet is considered one of the worst right-wing dictators. Even survivors in Chile had the benefit of living in a country with economic freedom in the most basic sense.

Hendricks266, on 10 January 2020 - 05:23 PM, said:

We armed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan against a moderate democratic state just to piss on the Soviets. How well did that turn out for us in 2001?

This is one policy I regret. We should have let the Soviets overrun the entire middle-east (except Israel). That way all the Islamists would have been exterminated in gulags.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Radar: get out of your mom's basement once in a while, there's a whole world out there. Who knows maybe you'll even lose your virginity. Dude, it's funny reading your shit because it literally sounds like somebody with zero experience outside of their gated community who gets all their information from right wing blogs and Ben Shapiro.

[Radar]

That's an ad-hominem attack that should be reserved for the Outhouse. To keep this thread clean I've responded appropriately to your post in that section.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Not going there, so I guess it'll have to be a fart in the wind, like the rest of your diatribes...

[Radar]

LMAO. Too afraid to engage me in a subforum where I'm not moderated. I don't blame you.

[Aristotle Gumball]

You sound like those nerds in school who act like being scolded by a teacher is the worst thing that could ever happen. Is your name Melvin?

[Radar]

You know dude, here you are just insulting me, and you know darn well I can't retaliate in the same way because the moderation team here keeps a close eye on me. Like a typical coward, you only engage with an opponent when you have the upper hand. And on cue, you reject my offer to level the playing field. I'm sure you won't be reprimanded for insulting me twice in a row either.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Ever watch Fresh Prince of Bel-Air? You're Carlton. "You know darn well I'll be reprimanded Will, and yet you insist on insulting me not once, but twice in a row! Unfair!"

Playing field's pretty even from where I'm standing. I don't care if I get banned and you do. All those internet points gone...

Don't worry, though. I'll take off and let someone else respond to your "My hero Ben Shapiro" writing assignment. God knows they love arguing with sheltered children around here.

[Radar]

Daily reminder the scope of this thread is to have civil, moderated, political discussion on duke4.net

So far, 10 pages of this thread proved this is fully possible. The only person in violation of that was you. It's not a coincidence you aren't an Outhouse frequenter. You can refer to Wieder's and Sledge's signatures as to why.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Well, as you so eloquently put it, "convincing people is a waste of time", so why waste my articulation ability on you? I'd rather just troll.

And no wonder it went on for 10 pages, the people you named are part of the Duke4 right wing circlejerk that keeps it going. This is essentially a closed loop, lol. A few interlopers wander in, add their two cents, get bored and leave. Dan is fascinated or intellectually stimulated, so he sticks around. I dunno, man. Your types speak horribly about other countries, other people and cultures and then wonder why someone might want to insult them. Again - sheltered. Get out of your room, son.

[Radar]

thricecursed, on 11 January 2020 - 12:43 PM, said:

Well, as you so eloquently put it, "convincing people is a waste of time", so why waste my articulation ability on you? I'd rather just troll.

Convincing people is a waste of time. A discussion isn't.

thricecursed, on 11 January 2020 - 12:43 PM, said:

And no wonder it went on for 10 pages, the people you named are part of the Duke4 right wing circlejerk that keeps it going. This is essentially a closed loop, lol. A few interlopers wander in, add their two cents, get bored and leave. Dan is fascinated or intellectually stimulated, so he sticks around.

This is not true. I thought the world of you, thrice. When you joined the forum posting Jordan Peterson videos, I thought you might just be a chill dude. It's sad how you've fallen.

thricecursed, on 11 January 2020 - 12:43 PM, said:

I dunno, man. Your types speak horribly about other countries, other people and cultures and then wonder why someone might want to insult them. Again - sheltered. Get out of your room, son.

yOuR tYpEs SpEaK hOrRiBlEy AbOuT OtHeR cOuNtRiEs. You know why? Because I am from another country. Europeans have a knack for talking down to Americans for all their historical failures, when in reality the reason Europe hasn't conducted any major foreign policy since 1945 is because the entire continent is inept and incapable of exerting any positive global influence.

[Aristotle Gumball]

A discussion is useful for what then? Intellectual masturbation? Rallying the troops as Dan said?

You have a hateful sneer to your comments, way before I started calling you any names. Massively biased, over-emotional (I have no idea why you thought the world of me - I hardly even know you? For real, we've not spoken privately or anything - Edit: scratch that, you told me who Wiederhold was. That's about it), and acting like you're somehow the victim of unfair modding. I haven't been around for a few months and don't know why anyone's keeping tabs on you, but the fact that they do... well, there's gotta be a reason. Oh yeah, and here we go again: "the entire continent is inept"

Congrats, seriously. What a great discussion.

[Radar]

thricecursed, on 11 January 2020 - 01:39 PM, said:

A discussion is useful for what then?

Why are you here?

[Aristotle Gumball]

Radar 100 Watts, on 11 January 2020 - 03:13 PM, said:

Why are you here?

Nuhuh, I asked first. That's cheating and we know how much you hate unfairness.

Anyway, I've already explained my general purpose in online debates, discussions, etc. It's a few pages back.

[Mark]

Not pages back. Just a few posts ago... you said: "I'd rather just troll."

[Radar]

thricecursed, on 11 January 2020 - 03:34 PM, said:

Nuhuh, I asked first. That's cheating and we know how much you hate unfairness.

Anyway, I've already explained my general purpose in online debates, discussions, etc. It's a few pages back.

Yeah I just read through them. Something something I innately respond to arguments based on reason something something I agree with Bernie Sanders. lol, sure.

[Danukem]

@Radar @thricecursed

Well I hope you two are enjoying yourselves sending your signals into the void, because you've both agreed a few pages ago that trying convince people is a waste of time. I'm not judging your choice of entertainment.

@Radar: remember you started this thread because you wanted to have a political discussion in the public part of the forum. You may not like being called a basement dweller, but it's not surprising when you do stuff like call the entire continent of Europe incompetent, which naturally Europeans are going to take umbrage with. As a defense, you could say that one is impersonal and the other is personal. But right now I'm trying to appeal to common sense, rather than forum rules. Ever heard of malicious compliance? [It's fun but it doesn't make friends]

If you want to have a serious discussion, then my advice would be to go ahead and have one. thricecursed doesn't give a single fuck about posting here (no offense intended to thricecursed, just my interpretation), so responding to him in a way that causes escalation can only work to your disadvantage.

[Radar]

Trooper Dan, on 11 January 2020 - 06:52 PM, said:

Well I hope you two are enjoying yourselves sending your signals into the void, because you've both agreed a few pages ago that trying convince people is a waste of time. I'm not judging your choice of entertainment.

I was going to say this to thrice but I didn't think it was worth the time. I actually agree with him that much of our political leanings are innate. IMO The value behind discussion is to better understand the logic (or lack thereof) of folks with different temperaments and personalities. I don't look to convince others, but I do desire to understand how people think. I was actually quite interested in hearing thrice's response to my opinions, but he only resorted to personal attacks. Well I already know some folks out there think "war is bad mkay" so thanks for providing no insight.

Trooper Dan, on 11 January 2020 - 06:52 PM, said:

@Radar: remember you started this thread because you wanted to have a political discussion in the public part of the forum. You may not like being called a basement dweller, but it's not surprising when you do stuff like call the entire continent of Europe incompetent, which naturally Europeans are going to take umbrage with. As a defense, you could say that one is impersonal and the other is personal. But right now I'm trying to appeal to common sense, rather than forum rules. Ever heard of malicious compliance? [It's fun but it doesn't make friends]

With that comment I was trying to subtly reference my own background as a European myself living in diaspora. Yeah I get the context wasn't clear. But I hate being the dude that starts his sentences with aS a X nAtIoNaLiTy Y gEnDeR pErSoN Of Z cOlOr HuRr DuRr.

Trooper Dan, on 11 January 2020 - 06:52 PM, said:

If you want to have a serious discussion, then my advice would be to go ahead and have one. thricecursed doesn't give a single fuck about posting here (no offense intended to thricecursed, just my interpretation), so responding to him in a way that causes escalation can only work to your disadvantage.

OK BUT FOR CALLING ME CARLTON I JUST WANT TO LEAVE HIM WITH ONE LAST THOUGHT

[Aristotle Gumball]

"providing no insight"

A - You agreed with me that convincing people is a waste of time.
B - I already understand your logic, after which...
C - Releasing my frustrations on the internet can be therapeutic.

A possible take away for you could be that if you say the types of things that you say, and you go out into the real world, people will want to make fun of you. And in some places they'll probably beat you up, or worse. That's why you come off sounding like a basement dweller. A normal person wouldn't be saying the things you do, lol. Especially the way you say them. Either you're really rich and sheltered by your wealth, or average and dealing with some form of mental illness. I do however believe that suffering can change a person's mind in cases where logical argumentation can't, so where I can bring some suffering to the equation, I will. All in the name of love and understanding. Amen.

[Mark]

Mark, on 11 January 2020 - 04:35 PM, said:

Not pages back. Just a few posts ago... you said: "I'd rather just troll."

Hmm...seems he doesn't like to have his own words shown back to him.