[Jimmy]

hogsy, on 04 November 2020 - 01:03 AM, said:

Was it? Making a follow-up to an incredibly successful game seems pretty logical to me. Don't disagree on everything that followed though, but that was all just poor management and not necessarily inherit of making a follow-up.

I'm not talking about DNF, genius. I'm talking about Mass Destruction. 3DR didn't have the rights to make another game and they knew it, and they did it anyway. Absolutely [REDACTED] behaviour from people who knew better.

OpenMaw, on 05 November 2020 - 06:09 AM, said:

Also, let me just say this, Fred sucks at video games. It's frustrating to watch him play with DNF because he sucks at it. He's the kind of player who makes you want to reach through the fucking screen and rip the keyboard and mouse out of his hand.

"Bro it just doesn't support controllers I can only play with controllers"
Frederik is just a rich kid filthy casual looking to make a quick buck grifting the retro games market. Yes, he has published some great games (developed not so much) but anyone who trusts him is dumber than a box of rocks.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Video games make me angry too.

[Outtagum]

[ETPC]

i'm going to be 30 in january and i'd just like to see what *was* done, even if it wasen't polished or ever finished, and let people play around and maybe allow the community to finish what is there. i'd love to see duke nukem just given to the community and everyone could make a duke nukem game, however they want.

i'd also love to hear from the developers themselves, and i've been trying to contact a few (so far only charlie has responded to me, which was wonderful!) in my spare time to ask them some questions (being as polite as possible obv because god i can't imagine how traumatic some of these memories are) but i also understand if we never hear about the day-to-day.

i don't know. i wish duke had a future. but maybe it was always going to turn out this way because george never had someone say no to him until it was too late.

the best we can hope for is someone makes a game that delivers on the promise of that 2001 trailer someday. that serious, immersive sim with rpg/horror elements. that's what i want.

[hiczok]

ETPC, on 18 November 2020 - 09:58 AM, said:

i'm going to be 30 in january and i'd just like to see what *was* done, even if it wasen't polished or ever finished, and let people play around and maybe allow the community to finish what is there. i'd love to see duke nukem just given to the community and everyone could make a duke nukem game, however they want.

i'd also love to hear from the developers themselves, and i've been trying to contact a few (so far only charlie has responded to me, which was wonderful!) in my spare time to ask them some questions (being as polite as possible obv because god i can't imagine how traumatic some of these memories are) but i also understand if we never hear about the day-to-day.

i don't know. i wish duke had a future. but maybe it was always going to turn out this way because george never had someone say no to him until it was too late.

the best we can hope for is someone makes a game that delivers on the promise of that 2001 trailer someday. that serious, immersive sim with rpg/horror elements. that's what i want.

I feel You... same here (31). Last night I had a dream that build leaked... I played it.... and then I woke up lol

[icecoldduke]

Corporal Dingo, on 01 November 2020 - 07:55 PM, said:

Found this

https://youtu.be/OX0pfzoFDGU

I've never seen this video before, but it doesn't show any gameplay that's very interesting to me. Looks like experiments with interactive guis and portal skies to me. Based on the footage in this thread, I don't see any reason to disagree with people that assert the DNF builds weren't what we are expecting them to be. It just looks like multiple levels that are to gray box quality, that have mini tech demos inside them(like the interactive guis and portal skies).

[William Beavis]

Didn't somebody once say it was over 90% done?

[PikaCommando]

William Beavis, on 02 November 2020 - 06:47 AM, said:

Huh, why is "Leaving Las Vegas" in the middle of the Vegas episode instead of at the end?

[OpenMaw]

PikaCommando, on 21 November 2020 - 06:14 PM, said:

Huh, why is "Leaving Las Vegas" in the middle of the Vegas episode instead of at the end?

Probably a case of when it was developed.


As to what state what was in. Randy's perspective on things favors downplaying things. Freds favored overselling. We have Weider's words on what was playable and what wasn't in the 2001 trailer, and what kind of content did exist.

For people expecting a fully playable game at "90%" sure, prepare to be disappointed. Charlie mentioned that there was a time when Bombshell had text-to-speech dialogue for one segment in Slick Willy. Patchwork, experimentation. I'm sure things vary all over the game. You go from a very polished section to a very not polished section.

[Kristian Joensen]

OpenMaw, on 21 November 2020 - 08:29 PM, said:

Probably a case of when it was developed.


As to what state what was in. Randy's perspective on things favors downplaying things. Freds favored overselling. We have Weider's words on what was playable and what wasn't in the 2001 trailer, and what kind of content did exist.

For people expecting a fully playable game at "90%" sure, prepare to be disappointed. Charlie mentioned that there was a time when Bombshell had text-to-speech dialogue for one segment in Slick Willy. Patchwork, experimentation. I'm sure things vary all over the game. You go from a very polished section to a very not polished section.

As I said before, and Charlie seemed to agree, it is also a question about talking about different thing in terms of which specific build people are talking about. Fred very specifically was talking about a build from October 2002. The pre-2002/2003 restart version at a high point if you will. While others are talking about the "E3 2001 build" in a pretty loose and not specific way and Randy was never specific either and seems to be speaking about the completion level of the build behind that trailer and not the same build that Fred is talking about. E3 2001 was in May? I think around there. So we might be talking about May 2001 vs October 2002. So we might have Randy underselling May 2001 and Fred overselling October 2002 and then you really end up with quite different perspectives!

I cold see Gearbox at one point releasing a build from around E3 2001 and claiming to prove Fred "wrong", while essentially burning a strawman.

[vini1264]

From the gameplay video that was leaked, it seem that it comes from the 2001 build, because if you see the HUD and compare to the 2001 screenshots in the DNF museum they are the same. But when you compare the video with the 2002 screenshots it seems to be different, for example in the 2001 build Duke uses blue gloves, but in 2002 screenshots he's using black gloves and black boots, also the HUD is a little bit different too.

[Kyeb]

I recall reading that it's a late 2001 build. Makes sense if you look at the outside of Lady Killer in the 2002 screenshot, it looks totally different to the leaked gameplay footage.

[PokeThePower]

PikaCommando, on 21 November 2020 - 06:14 PM, said:

Huh, why is "Leaving Las Vegas" in the middle of the Vegas episode instead of at the end?

Slick Willy was way outside of Vegas City Limits, far into the desert with no signs of civilization nearby other than a two lane highway and a motel ripped off from John Carptenter's Vampires. The actual layout was the motel right off the highway, and then a good ways off the highway along a dirt road was the Slick Willy. You can tell this in particular from some of the 2003 footage released with DNF just how far in the desert it looks. Everything that followed was also outside of Vegas.

Kristian Joensen, on 22 November 2020 - 05:07 AM, said:

As I said before, and Charlie seemed to agree, it is also a question about talking about different thing in terms of which specific build people are talking about.

There are builds where you can walk from the opening level to the ending level where it could be argued that "90% of the game was there". Obvious to most everyone is that 90% of the intended space connected doesn't mean 90% of the game, so that claim is out. You can also go too far the other way, but I'll give Randy benefit of the doubt with his comments that from the perspective of something he could box and sell... the pre-2006 efforts are more smorgasbord than product regardless of how much a 2003 era production manager might have considered it far enough along to start the "cutting is shipping" principle.

So yeah depends on the year. It was very rare that implementation work was done for promo purposes, with the 2001 effort being the most tilted toward video implementation only. I've already noted the breakdown there as best I could. Everything else was tilted FAR harder toward intended to ship efforts when implemented even if that turned out to be folly.

[Jimmy]

I think people associate the Slick Willy in their minds with being a strip club, but think about the name. It's more of a brothel, isn't it? If that's true, it would make sense because Nevada does have some counties where prostitution is legal, but not in the county where Las Vegas resides. And they do tend to be in more rural areas, probably most notably the Moonlight Bunny Ranch. Some people might not know this which is why the perception might exist in this way.

Although, his original point still stands. Why do you go from Slick Willy into Stratosfear? Is that just an error? There is a litany of other erroneous input in that file so it's not unbelievable.

[PokeThePower]

Jimmy, on 23 November 2020 - 10:52 AM, said:

Although, his original point still stands. Why do you go from Slick Willy into Stratosfear? Is that just an error? There is a litany of other erroneous input in that file so it's not unbelievable.

Oh yes... derp! When those level order numbers were written up the Stratosfear missions were you jumping back to play as Bombshell.

Now... that idea changed as often as the seating chart at a wedding... and the level names mean nothing as to the *actual* order the levels could be played in. However that's the main reason for the jump back order originally. Though as I said... there were times where it was assumed Duke was taken back to Vegas after the fight with the chopper in the Slick Willy attic. Sometimes flown back via chopper, sometimes driven back by the friendly pigcop in the PMPN8EZ mobile, etc. I'm pretty sure there were times the Statosfear missions were considered before SW regardless of the level names or order you see in the INI, etc.

Pretty normal game dev consequence... which is why some folks consider it bad form to give levels ANY numerical information during development as they inevitably conflict with the final results and can create an artificial perception gravity about their order that influences people's comfort in thinking about them in different orders.

Jimmy, on 23 November 2020 - 10:52 AM, said:

Some people might not know this which is why the perception might exist in this way.

Yeah, it was as if you took the location vibe of the Titty Twister from Dusk Till Dawn and the motel from Vampires, then gave it a more traditional big ticket Atlanta strip club interior, but with an out back area with trailers for more brothel like activities, and wrapped it all in an old west style wooden building that didn't have any direct footprint inspiration as far as I remember.

The motel was a direct ripoff, the SW was a new creation out a variety of recognizable influences.

[William Beavis]

Made some comparisons of what appears to be the exact same area(outdoor walkway entry to LK casino)

2001,2002,2003,2006

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

[William Beavis]

Whoops, forgot the 2002 shots. The place looks vaguely similar to Freemont street with the dome lit canopy. Is the 2003 version blacked out because of those notorious rending issues when the dynamic lights were implemented?

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 
• 
• 

[PokeThePower]

William Beavis, on 23 November 2020 - 04:29 PM, said:

The place looks vaguely similar to Freemont street with the dome lit canopy.

Yes.

William Beavis, on 23 November 2020 - 04:29 PM, said:

Is the 2003 version blacked out because of those notorious rending issues when the dynamic lights were implemented?

Something along those lines yeah.

[ETPC]

the thing that always shocks me is how the art redesign post 2003 looks no longer like duke and instead like some kind of doom 3 clone. what happened there? did they think the old colorful, yet gritty art style wasen't cutting it anymore?

[PokeThePower]

ETPC, on 24 November 2020 - 08:35 AM, said:

the thing that always shocks me is how the art redesign post 2003 looks no longer like duke and instead like some kind of doom 3 clone. what happened there? did they think the old colorful, yet gritty art style wasen't cutting it anymore?

Doom uber alles.

[ETPC]

god that's depressing.

[PokeThePower]

Yarp.

[hiczok]

ETPC, on 24 November 2020 - 09:03 AM, said:

god that's depressing.

'The Thread'

[Jimmy]

I think if you work on any project for that long it can become easy to lose sight of what the project was supposed to be, especially if it becomes a revolving door of developers with different backgrounds, styles, and ideas. If your project lead is someone who isn't able to focus and always wants to one up his peers, it becomes even easier.

It's funny that the DNF we got was absolutely the most bare bones basic bitch version of itself that it could possibly be, and it was still not even a finished game.

InnervateInna, on 23 November 2020 - 11:18 AM, said:

Oh yes... derp! When those level order numbers were written up the Stratosfear missions were you jumping back to play as Bombshell.

Now... that idea changed as often as the seating chart at a wedding... and the level names mean nothing as to the *actual* order the levels could be played in. However that's the main reason for the jump back order originally. Though as I said... there were times where it was assumed Duke was taken back to Vegas after the fight with the chopper in the Slick Willy attic. Sometimes flown back via chopper, sometimes driven back by the friendly pigcop in the PMPN8EZ mobile, etc. I'm pretty sure there were times the Statosfear missions were considered before SW regardless of the level names or order you see in the INI, etc.

Pretty normal game dev consequence... which is why some folks consider it bad form to give levels ANY numerical information during development as they inevitably conflict with the final results and can create an artificial perception gravity about their order that influences people's comfort in thinking about them in different orders.


Yeah, it was as if you took the location vibe of the Titty Twister from Dusk Till Dawn and the motel from Vampires, then gave it a more traditional big ticket Atlanta strip club interior, but with an out back area with trailers for more brothel like activities, and wrapped it all in an old west style wooden building that didn't have any direct footprint inspiration as far as I remember.

The motel was a direct ripoff, the SW was a new creation out a variety of recognizable influences.

Interesting. I don't really remember hearing about the motel before. Is there any actual footage or screenshots of that out there? When I watch the official releases and even the leaks it seems to focus on Vegas and Morningwood the most. There is a lot of areas from the game throughout development that just haven't been shown off.

Have you played DNF/Doctor Who Cloned Me? How would the Lake Mead Shootout, the Canyon "Independence Day" Shootout, and the Dune Buggy play pen sort of area have fit into the game? Were those Bombshell missions? Was the motorcycle ever really a part of the game? It didn't make it into the final, and even leaked stuff doesn't show it off. Were a lot of the areas that ended up getting cut (even before Triptych had to make cuts) because Bombshell got cut out sometime in the late 2000s?

If you've played the Doctor Who Cloned Me, is the brothel in there basically a shitty version of the Slick Willy? It sounds eerily similar to what you described, minus the Atlanta strip club interior and the Vampires motel. How close is the progression of DNF/DWCM compared to what it was projected to be then? I've always gotten the impression that Area 51 was in the middle of the game and the Dam was the finale. Could definitely be wrong here but that's the impression I even got from the released game. The narrative is so disjointed. And was Dr. Proton always supposed to be such a pushover? It's the most disappointing send-off in FPS history in my opinion. And really the whole story doesn't even make that much sense, if Dr. Proton is the bad guy, shouldn't he be working with the aliens? Why is he trying to defeat them? It seems shoehorned in there. I'm guessing Dr. Proton's original involvement was some X-Files-esque thing about alien human hybrids, because of the greys which got cut. Could be wrong about that though, just conjecture.

[Ninety-Six]

Personally I was under the impression that Proton had sort of a Lex Luthor type thing going on where while he does actually want to keep earth safe to some degree, but he wants it to be him who does the saving and wants to get rid of the actual hero.

[Tea Monster]

I've gotten lost in all the back and forth. Is this gearbox DNF retrospective actually coming out or not?

[Kyeb]

Tea Monster, on 25 November 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

I've gotten lost in all the back and forth. Is this gearbox DNF retrospective actually coming out or not?

Still up in air at the moment. Nothing really solid. GBX have a licence to redistribute DNF and Randy has stated he wants to bundle everything up. But nothing really concrete.

My hope is just a leak, 'cos I really can't see Randy doing anything with Duke again.

[Outtagum]

ETPC, on 24 November 2020 - 09:03 AM, said:

god that's depressing.

hiczok, on 24 November 2020 - 11:20 AM, said:

'The Thread'

[vini1264]

Tea Monster, on 25 November 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

I've gotten lost in all the back and forth. Is this gearbox DNF retrospective actually coming out or not?

Nothing confirmed ATM, I think we just have to wait and see if they will do something about "that collection". Next year will be Duke's 30th anniversary so >maybe< gearbox will finally release the so called collection, but i'm still not so sure about it, so we have to wait and see.

[Green]

Tea Monster, on 25 November 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:

I've gotten lost in all the back and forth. Is this gearbox DNF retrospective actually coming out or not?

The most recent word on it was in May during a live stream of Randy building a PC.

Jimmy, on 24 November 2020 - 04:10 PM, said:

Was the motorcycle ever really a part of the game? It didn't make it into the final, and even leaked stuff doesn't show it off. Were a lot of the areas that ended up getting cut (even before Triptych had to make cuts) because Bombshell got cut out sometime in the late 2000s?

This image was one of several posted on 4chan last year.


Aside from that screenshot the only other piece of media I'm aware of outside of the 2001 trailer that shows the motorcycle is one of the screenshots included as an extra in Duke Nukem Forever labeled as being from 2002. The original filename is "Screenshot_2002_06".