[Zaxx]

William Gee, on 09 March 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

I still haven't played DNF did I miss anything?

Honestly it's worth a playthrough for the few good things it has. There are some genuinely good levels and good ideas in there and it's still a lot better than stuff like Colonial Marines or Hunt Down the Freeman.

[Damien_Azreal]

Zaxx, on 09 March 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

Honestly it's worth a playthrough for the few good things it has. There are some genuinely good levels and good ideas in there and it's still a lot better than stuff like Colonial Marines or Hunt Down the Freeman.

It is worth a playthrough, and it's not nearly as bad as people like to make it out to be.
In ways, yes it is disappointing. But,it's also a victim of it's own hype and development hell. 14 years is an ungodly amount of time for anything to live up to, and it's impossible for any game to really measure up to that.

Specially when you look at some of the behind the scenes stuff, leaked footage and screens... and see that the game from 2006, visually, is what we got in 2011.

BUT...
DNF is a part of history. And it is something that should be played by all Duke fans IMO.
Some will like it, hate it, enjoy it, loath it, love it and feel disappointed by it. But, it should still be played.


Me personally, I enjoy it. It's something I can start up and play and still enjoy. Yes, there are parts I thinks are "under cooked". Elements that are incomplete, levels that feel unfinished. And, I've written out a VERY long bit detailing my personal views on how you could make the 2011 DNF great. Never posted online anywhere, mostly because I don't feel there's really any interest.
But, I feel the opening is great, the casino is unfinished and a half-fullfilled idea. The Vegas levels are again, unfinished. The Hive... looks great, but the tone flip flips around. The Dam levels are really the best, most polished levels visually, but are cut into smaller, odd sections.

And, finally, the DLC I feel... is great.
It shows the potential of what could've been in the full game. The DLC handles the idea and elements of the full game much, much better.

[William Gee]

Zaxx, on 09 March 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

Honestly it's worth a playthrough for the few good things it has. There are some genuinely good levels and good ideas in there and it's still a lot better than stuff like Colonial Marines or Hunt Down the Freeman.

Hmm $11 on Steam for DNF and all add ons is pretty good. Better than $100 Just for DNF. Downloading for a first play. ahaha

EDIT: Its cheaper than Duke Nukem 3D: 20th Anniversary World Tour half the price.

[Forge]

SpotsSpot, on 09 March 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

it is entirely within their legal right to have us dig a hole then fill the hole just to dig it again.

willingly.
it's called job security.
you want me to scrap all this work and start over, so I can keep getting a paycheck? Right Away!

going on strike because they're being asked to continue to keep their job, and keep it longer than originally anticipated, is stupid

[Newken]

William Gee, on 09 March 2018 - 07:41 PM, said:

Hmm $11 on Steam for DNF and all add ons is pretty good. Better than $100 Just for DNF. Downloading for a first play. ahaha

EDIT: Its cheaper than Duke Nukem 3D: 20th Anniversary World Tour half the price.

Some time ago Humble Bundle was offering Duke Nukem Forever (with The Darkness II & Spec Ops: The Line) for a dollar.

[Never Forgotten]

What if, and I stress if, 3D Realms and Gearbox partnered together and got as many of the old team as they could, and finished the game, then released it as "Duke Nukem Forever: 2001" and as a bonus, once you finish playing it, you unlock the 'Time capsule mode,' which is the unfinished 2001 version? They could sell that for the standard $50-$60, and make a pretty good profit... Cause remember, Randy loves Duke, but he loves money just as much... and it would sell well... very well... Hear me, Randy?

[Zaxx]

Damien_Azreal, on 09 March 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

It is worth a playthrough, and it's not nearly as bad as people like to make it out to be.

Hold the horses there because that's all about perspective. I mean if you're looking for a game that's a bit like Half-Life, you're not bothered by stuff like the 2 (or 4) weapons limit and you have no expectations then chances are you'll like it overalll. On the other hand if you're expecting a sequel to Duke 3D (and let's not forget that's what DNF is supposed to be) and gameplay mechanics are important to you then you'll think that it's absolute garbage and the kind of shit that should have never seen the light of day. Personally when I'm playing DNF I'm constantly torn between these two perspectives because I love Half-Life, I really do so stuff like the linearity or the puzzles are not bothering me at all but then I start shooting, it feels awkward as fuck, then I have to drop one of my weapons because I want to pick up another one and I'm like "OMFG, WHAT HAVE THEY DONE!?"

Btw. the DLC is truly better than the main campaign, a lot less of it is shit.

[Forge]

Zaxx, on 10 March 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

then I have to drop one of my weapons because I want to pick up another one and I'm like "OMFG, WHAT HAVE THEY DONE!?"

it's the old, fat, diabetic Duke.
that's why it only takes one 24 oz can of beer to get him drunk, and he can only sprint 10 meters before he's out of breath

from the little bit I played, DNF is a mediocre game. It's okay. It could have been much better, but it also could have been much worse.

I should actually try to play the entire game some day, but I get hesitant when I think of wall-boobs and the allegedly super annoying valve puzzle..

[Zaxx]

Forge, on 10 March 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

I should actually try to play the entire game some day, but I get hesitant when I think of wall-boobs and the allegedly super annoying valve puzzle..

The valve puzzle is very simple, it takes a minute to solve, it's not really an issue. Overall what brings the game down ultimately is the simple fact that it's just boring because compared to other faster paced shooters there is just not much to do in DNF when it comes to the actual shooting. You very rarely face more than 3 enemies at once and the pacing is terrible so the game has a lot of downtime where really not much is happening. On top of that most of the weapons are just not fun to use, overall I only like the shotgun, the shrinker and the rail gun in the game, the rest of the arsenal just feels off.

That's why I think that overall the game is worse than mediocre, it just has a hard time to keep my attention and even most mediocre AAA games can achieve at least maintaining that. A mediocre AAA game is something like Mafia 3 to me where the open world and the mission design is not great at all but the game is still full of competently designed combat and nice story elements that keep my attention.

[OpenMaw]

Never Forgotten, on 10 March 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

What if, and I stress if, 3D Realms and Gearbox partnered together and got as many of the old team as they could, and finished the game, then released it as "Duke Nukem Forever: 2001" and as a bonus, once you finish playing it, you unlock the 'Time capsule mode,' which is the unfinished 2001 version? They could sell that for the standard $50-$60, and make a pretty good profit... Cause remember, Randy loves Duke, but he loves money just as much... and it would sell well... very well... Hear me, Randy?

That won't happen, and it shouldn't happen.

[Never Forgotten]

Commando Nukem, on 10 March 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

That won't happen, and it shouldn't happen.

Okay... Why don't you think it should happen?

[Zaxx]

Never Forgotten, on 10 March 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

Okay... Why don't you think it should happen?

SpotsSpot'sSpots said that the game was not in such a state where it could be finished from realistically. I think that's a strong enough reason.

[Altered Reality]

Never Forgotten, on 10 March 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

Okay... Why don't you think it should happen?

Because, until the 2002 build of DNF remains unreleased, people can dream that it's the best game ever, and nobody can contradict them.
If it's released, reality will inevitably clash with their expectations. The same people who used to hope and beg for a release, far from being grateful, will unleash their hate on the forums and social media, will insult the people responsible for the release, call them traitors or worse, demand the "real" build and issue death threats.

[Forge]

Never Forgotten, on 10 March 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Hear me, Randy?

[Damien_Azreal]

Zaxx, on 10 March 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

Hold the horses there because that's all about perspective.

Of course it is.
Perspective and opinion. Whenever anyone posts about something they liked or enjoyed, they are expressing their opinions based off of their perspective.
That should be the mindset whenever you read someone's views on a game, movie, book... whatever.

[Toxic34]

Given that Randy mentioned a possibility of releasing historical versions, maybe we'll get this build at some point. It would be interesting. Of course, legal issues needing to be ironed out would take quite a while. But I am hopeful that it could work out.

Shame that because of George wanting to update the renderer and it not transferring well, they just decided to scrap everything rather than just finish what was there with the tools they had already committed to using. Again, as someone said, while it wouldn't have looked as amazing as Doom 3, the gameplay would've more than made up for it. After all, BioShock isn't the best in terms of graphical capabilities and photorealism, but the gameplay and the plot keeps you well attached to see it all to the end. I think that if George knew what was going to happen to DNF, he wouldn't have switched so many things on a whim and would've agreed that it was best to simply use what they had committed to use, and have it over and done with.

Would the 2001/2002 build be the best game ever? Absolutely not. But it would be a great game, and would make you wish that it had just been finished. As for simply finishing all the elements to bridge it all, I agree that isn't remotely realistic, but that it doesn't have to be done to be released. After all, River Phoenix's final film ended up getting released for a screening, despite being only 90% complete and with the director, the late George Sluzier, providing narration over black screen to describe what was missing. Likewise with Marilyn Monroe's final film, where all the shot footage being released with a compelling documentary about it. It doesn't have to complete to be enjoyed. Fans of the Black Mesa remake can attest to that.

[Danukem]

Never Forgotten, on 10 March 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

What if, and I stress if, 3D Realms and Gearbox partnered together and got as many of the old team as they could, and finished the game, then released it as "Duke Nukem Forever: 2001" and as a bonus, once you finish playing it, you unlock the 'Time capsule mode,' which is the unfinished 2001 version? They could sell that for the standard $50-$60, and make a pretty good profit... Cause remember, Randy loves Duke, but he loves money just as much... and it would sell well... very well... Hear me, Randy?

This would actually be very expensive to do because Gearbox is a modern developer with modern developer costs. It would not be a good use of their resources -- they are much better off using all of their resources to finish Borderlands 3, which is guaranteed to make them a ton of money if they don't fuck it up. I think you grossly overestimate the commercial demand for something like this.

[OpenMaw]

Altered Reality, on 10 March 2018 - 11:34 AM, said:

Because, until the 2002 build of DNF remains unreleased, people can dream that it's the best game ever, and nobody can contradict them.
If it's released, reality will inevitably clash with their expectations. The same people who used to hope and beg for a release, far from being grateful, will unleash their hate on the forums and social media, will insult the people responsible for the release, call them traitors or worse, demand the "real" build and issue death threats.

No. We're not just talking about putting out the dev build here. That's fine. Please do. As a historical curiosity that would be fantastic to roam around. Just like with the builds of Doom, Daikatana, Shadow Warrior, so on and so forth. But trying to Frankenstein together DNF 01 and sell it? No way!

[Altered Reality]

Toxic34, on 10 March 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

Shame that because of George wanting to update the renderer and it not transferring well, they just decided to scrap everything rather than just finish what was there with the tools they had already committed to using. Again, as someone said, while it wouldn't have looked as amazing as Doom 3, the gameplay would've more than made up for it. After all, BioShock isn't the best in terms of graphical capabilities and photorealism, but the gameplay and the plot keeps you well attached to see it all to the end. I think that if George knew what was going to happen to DNF, he wouldn't have switched so many things on a whim and would've agreed that it was best to simply use what they had committed to use, and have it over and done with.

The proverb says that a symptom of madness is to do the same thing over and over expecting different results. And George did do the same thing (restarting the development of DNF) over and over, fully convinced that "this time it's different! This time everything is planned out! This time the game is gonna come out!"
Yeah, we saw what it took to have DNF come out in any shape or form. A lawsuit against 3DRealms, the company running out of money, the rights on Duke Nukem being sold to another company and George being booted out of 3DRealms.

[Zaxx]

Damien_Azreal, on 10 March 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

Of course it is.
Perspective and opinion. Whenever anyone posts about something they liked or enjoyed, they are expressing their opinions based off of their perspective.
That should be the mindset whenever you read someone's views on a game, movie, book... whatever.

Yes but DNF is kinda like the Phantom Menace: it's a game you want to love and every single Duke fan has a hard time accepting that it's just not really good. The Phantom Menace, just like DNF always gets the same kind of "you know, it wasn't actually THAT bad, it was just disappointing" arguments... and the Phantom Menace was really that bad.

[necroslut]

Zaxx, on 10 March 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

Yes but DNF is kinda like the Phantom Menace: it's a game you want to love and every single Duke fan has a hard time accepting that it's just not really good. The Phantom Menace, just like DNF always gets the same kind of "you know, it wasn't actually THAT bad, it was just disappointing" arguments... and the Phantom Menace was really that bad.

In hindsight The Phantom Menace is hardly the worst of the Star Wars movies.
And DNF is hardly "the worst game" either. I wouldn't even call it mediocre, as that implies an even level of dullness. It's extremely uneven, with great aspects and awful aspects. Is it, in its entirety, good? Not really. Is it bad? For the same reasons, not really.

[Zaxx]

necroslut, on 11 March 2018 - 12:11 AM, said:

In hindsight The Phantom Menace is hardly the worst of the Star Wars movies.

Well yeah, Attack of the Clones is even worse but that movie was already expected to be bad while The Phantom Menace was supposed to be the greatest thing ever in entertainment media. Clones may be worse but The Phantom Menace was more disappointing.

The same goes for Duke: if a shitty Duke game would come out now nobody would be that surprised because DNF may be mediocre by some tastes but it's still one of the most disappointing games ever made right next to something like No Man's Sky.

[Damien_Azreal]

DNF's biggest issue is, despite the length of it's development cycle... the end game just doesn't feel finished.
And it shows in how the quality varies from level to level.

It really does feel like Triptych took what they had, and pieced it together as best they could just to finish. Where as, the game actually probably needed another 6 months to a year.
I actually, would've been completely okay and willing to wait, had GBX announced they had bought the IP. Brought Triptych on board. And were starting the game over from scratch on solid tech, modern UE3. A fully focused team with resources and proper direction.

The DLC, Doctor Who Cloned Me, showed what was capable when proper time, direction and resources were available.
And yes, the DLC was based off of rough levels/concepts from the original game before the 2009 closure. But, Allen Blum and a few others said that they rebuilt the content for the DLC instead of trying to use the old builds they had left over.

The game just does not feel cohesive. Some areas look and play great, and the next can feel rough, unpolished and odd, then you can go back to one that looks great and is fun. It's just unfinished.



But, I started a new game in Manhattan Project yesterday, and had a thought.
It's funny that people think of Duke Nukem as a FPS game franchise. When... there's only two FPS entries. Yet, there's three third person action games, and four side scrolling platformers.

[Maisth]

More leaks it seems.

First one apparently is Bombshell.

[necroslut]

Maisth, on 11 March 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

More leaks it seems.

First one apparently is Bombshell.

That looks to be the Bombshell model from the 1998 E3 video, and the other items also seem (if legit) to be from the same era, being considerably lower detail/poly than the other stuff shown.

[Maisth]

necroslut, on 11 March 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

That looks to be the Bombshell model from the 1998 E3 video, and the other items also seem (if legit) to be from the same era, being considerably lower detail/poly than the other stuff shown.

Agreed, the robot one i believe is the cut gay robot sidekick Duke was supposed to have.

[Zaxx]

Now that these leaks reminded me of the old versions of DNF I remembered one thing I never understood: why was the "American rifle" removed from DNF? I think that they should have kept that in instead of the Duke 3D chaingun since it was always featured in the trailers and on the screenshots.

[Never Forgotten]

Zaxx, on 11 March 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

Now that these leaks reminded me of the old versions of DNF I remembered one thing I never understood: why was the "American rifle" removed from DNF? I think that they should have kept that in instead of the Duke 3D chaingun since it was always featured in the trailers and on the screenshots.

I'm assuming it's because they decided to go with a direct sequel style, rather than another Duke adventure. So they just recycled the old weapons and enemies.

[Zaxx]

Never Forgotten, on 11 March 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

I'm assuming it's because they decided to go with a direct sequel style, rather than another Duke adventure. So they just recycled the old weapons and enemies.

Sure but then why have the golden DE and those piss poor alien weapons?

[Toxic34]

Zaxx, on 10 March 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

Yes but DNF is kinda like the Phantom Menace: it's a game you want to love and every single Duke fan has a hard time accepting that it's just not really good. The Phantom Menace, just like DNF always gets the same kind of "you know, it wasn't actually THAT bad, it was just disappointing" arguments... and the Phantom Menace was really that bad.

The Phantom Menace isn't perfect, but it sure as hell isn't disappointing. The only thing that needed to be fixed was the dialogue by giving the script to Lawrence Kasdan for another pass. Everything else was perfectly fine. The political elements are quite necessary, and the Senate scenes are NOT "Galactic C-SPAN." Jar Jar is certainly annoying as hell, but he's not a racist caricature. It's funny that the accusation came primarily from white viewers, while black audiences didn't think that remotely until they heard the claims and absorbed them into their subconscious.

There's a chance that the infamous cringe-inducing dialogue of Attack of the Clones is purposefully meant to make Anakin look creepy, and that we aren't meant to accept the romance at face value, but as a mistake that occurs because Padme mistranslates platonic compassionate love for romance. George Lucas may very well disagree with that notion, but it is possible.

A lot of the still images and YouTube videos that attack the visuals are often purposefully had their brightness and formatting manipulated with to make it look worse than it actually is. When you view the movies from the actual discs, there is nothing wrong with it. Besides, 2000 practical effects shots (models, miniatures, matte paintings) were used in The Phantom Menace alone. That's three times the number of effects shots in the original trilogy combined. There is also the fact that the sins that the prequel trilogy or the current Disney films are excoriated for, the original trilogy had in spades all along. Rose-colored remembrances obscure that fact. In many ways, the fans couldn't recapture they way they felt when they first watched the original films, and also had invested too much into their own personal beliefs about the series, the characters, and the lore. When reality didn't match their beliefs, rather than admit that they were wrong, they simply stated that their beliefs WERE/ARE true, but that Lucas intentionally fucked it up. The same has occurred in the ridiculous reactions to The Last Jedi, unable to see what was right in front of them, or that the clues were pointing here all along.

The fact remains that for the vast majority of people, all the films succeeded and are accepted wholeheartedly, and they resonated and connected where it actually counted. In every way that actually matters, the films are an unqualified success.

As for the point of saying that expectations of Duke are similar to what happened with Star Wars, that certainly is true to some extent. But whereas Lucas and everyone connected simply saw themselves as furthering the story, making movies, and didn't have control over how the public or how the audiences would react, didn't give statements of "this will be the biggest thing that has ever happened EVER!", how they'd hype it as equivalent the Second Coming of Jesus, George Broussard and 3D Realms definitely do have considerable blame for stoking the crowd and building up the hype. George wanted to create the best video game of all time, and his constant meddling in the process of developing the game tied everyone's hands.

It certainly to some extent makes it like there should've been some kind of staff uprising against George and they should've gone to mat over just simply finishing the game that was emerging, particularly when they were so close to the end. But also, what would've been the point to have a big knockdown dragout fight over the game? If there had been a revolt, George simply would've axed the team, brought in other, more pliable people, and still gotten his way. Nothing would've changed except further grief and heartbreak, and 3D Realms could've easily gone belly up even sooner, getting to the point that not only DNF would never have been released, but Prey wouldn't have either.

In the end, the ball is basically in Randy's court now. Of course, the big question is that if the unfinished 2001 build is released, how should it be done? As part of a remaster of the released version of DNF, along with any other playable builds? As extra content with any potential new Duke game? A giveaway prize? A made-to-order shipment like Warner Bros. does with the movies released in the Warner Archive collection (movies are purchased on a website, are released on DVD-R or BD-R discs and mailed to the buyer, as these are titles that wouldn't sell well at all in brick and mortar stores, or regular digital downloads and streaming services)?