[KaijuTurtle]

Altered Reality, on 07 March 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

Where was it originally posted?

A thread on 4chan, of all places.

[Duke4Beta]

What the hell is going on?


Wait...some guy has "hacked" into the servers @ Gearbox/3D Realms and is leaking stuff? Is that my understanding?

Is that the real story?

Do you think this could be Fred/Pitchfork trolling us again?

I REALLY WANT THOSE DAMN BUILDS!

-Duke4Beta

[OpenMaw]

Duke4Beta, on 07 March 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

Wait...some guy has "hacked" into the servers @ Gearbox/3D Realms and is leaking stuff? Is that my understanding?

I doubt it. Those fuzzy images look like they screen grabbed from a stream or something. Either someone at 3D Realms leaked it out themselves, or someone who was given exclusive access put this out there. There has been no indication anywhere as yet of a hack.



To my knowledge neither Fred nor Randy have ever actually trolled us. Oh, there's been some shady shit, sure, but I don't recall any trolling per se.

[Never Forgotten]

I've been thinking of this non-stop for the past few days now.... I reeeally want this to happen. I remember back in 2002 when my dad brought home Manhattan Project. I was so excited because I'd only ever played DN 1, 2, and 3D. So when my mom told me that dad was bringing another one home, I was hyped beyond belief. I wasn't disappointed, either. I didn't make it far in the game before it messed up, but I enjoyed it. But one thing I absolutely adored was the 2001 trailer for DNF. I watched that thing countless times, I have the entire trailer branded into my brain by now. I was upset when I realized that was not the one we would be getting years later, but I kept up with DNF so I was prepared for it by the time they revealed it. But now that there's a glimmer of hope that the one that should have been could be released, I feel that childlike joy springing back. I really want this to happen, and I honestly don't care if/how much I have to pay for it. I'll pay for it. It's that important to me. This is my childhood dream right here... to play that version of DNF. I don't care if it's complete, or if there are some irritating bugs, or anything. As long as I can finally, after all this time, play the friggin' game.

[KareBear]

There is also a Max Payne alpha shot in that 4chan thread.

[Lunick]

KareBear, on 08 March 2018 - 01:03 AM, said:

There is also a Max Payne alpha shot in that 4chan thread.

Like most of the shots in that thread, it's not new. It was posted in the Slipgate Discord server months ago.

[Forge]

So many pipe-dreams, so much fanboy drool.
This thread looks like an underwater mario world level.

When Randy figures out how to bilk enough money out of this to make it worth his time and effort, then it'll get released (maybe).

That'll be after he "honors" the i.p. with a AAA release that exceeds expectation.

[PikaCommando]

Maisth, on 04 March 2018 - 06:31 PM, said:

Let's take a guess what all those weapons are!

1. Mighty Boot, Chainsawhand
2. Pump Action Shotgun, American Rifle, Laser Sniper/Railgun
3. Pipebomb, Tripmine, RPG
4. Shrink Ray, Flamethrower, Freeze Cannon
5. S.O.S modes (Standard vision, Nightvision, Thermal vision, Stun vision)?
6. Medkit, Adrenaline Injector?, Scuba Gear, EDF Keycard?, no idea what the last two are (Flashbang? Holoduke?)
7. ??? (Mission Objectives view?)

[OpenMaw]

The 5 selection set looks to me like various bombs and boobytraps. Trip Mine, Pipebomb, etc...
6.4 looks like the EDF riot shield to me.

Edit: Oops, meant 6.

[necroslut]

PikaCommando, on 08 March 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

Let's take a guess what all those weapons are!

6.6 looks a bit like a blood bag. Could 6.7 be the mini-nuke? Interestingly there's no pistol in that list, and no beer.
At first I thought 6.2 was a sentry turret, but your guess is probably more accurate.

Commando Nukem, on 08 March 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

The 5 selection set looks to me like various bombs and boobytraps. Trip Mine, Pipebomb, etc...
7.4 looks like the EDF riot shield to me.

They do, however both the pipebomb and tripbomb can be seen under 3. Yeah, 7.4 might be the shield.

[PokeThePower]

PikaCommando, on 08 March 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

Let's take a guess what all those weapons are!

Many/most of these had multiple firing modes and/or ammo types.

1. Yes, Yes
2. Yes, Yes (m16 with flag), Yes
3. Yes, Yes, Yes
4. Yes, Yes (the gas cloud that ignited with ANY spark was hilarious... also had the FlameWall from ROTT at one point), Yes
5. Zoom, Yes, Yes, iForget
6. Yes, Sorta (multiple effects), Gas/Water mask, Riot Shield, iForget, Jetpack
7. Yes

[KareBear]

6.5 looks like some kind of keycard to me.

I wonder did this version of DNF have the Devastator?

[necroslut]

KareBear, on 09 March 2018 - 01:46 AM, said:

6.5 looks like some kind of keycard to me.

Seemingly the player has five of them though, which speaks for it being a consumable item unlike a keycard.

Quote

I wonder did this version of DNF have the Devastator?

When you mention it, I can't remember seeing the Devastator in any of the older DNF footage or screens... On the other hand, that screen doesn't list the pistol either, which has been shown plenty of times, so there's no guarantee that's the complete inventory of the game.

[OpenMaw]

There is something similar to a Devastator in the trailer, around 1:50 into the trailer there's a weapon that has alternating barrels firing.

[HulkNukem]

I figured that was a stationary turret

[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 09 March 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

There is something similar to a Devastator in the trailer, around 1:50 into the trailer there's a weapon that has alternating barrels firing.

It's weird watching this trailer these days: when this came out everyone thought this was the best thing ever but I imagine that nowadays the Youtube comment section would be full of complaints about how scripted the game looks like. Unskippable dialogue sequences, turret sections upon turret sections, vehicle shooting galleries, lots of set pieces: it's everything we hate about Call of Duty in this day and age.

But man, the nostalgia factor and just the sheer "epicness" to it all is amazing to this day!

[spessu_sb]

Zaxx, on 09 March 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

It's weird watching this trailer these days: when this came out everyone thought this was the best thing ever but I imagine that nowadays the Youtube comment section would be full of complaints about how scripted the game looks like. Unskippable dialogue sequences, turret sections upon turret sections, vehicle shooting galleries, lots of set pieces: it's everything we hate about Call of Duty in this day and age.

But man, the nostalgia factor and just the sheer "epicness" to it all is amazing to this day!

Can't agree with such call of duty/modern fps cliché comparison at all. If anything, it's like Doom 3 and Half-Life because atleast according to my observations, Duke Forever was heavily inspired by Half-Life 1 as were most games like the mentioned id's Doom 3.

Game being scripted is no kinda problem because Quake 2, Unreal and Half-Life are stil great to this day regardless of them having scripted sequences in them. Scripting is wrong when it's done the Call of Duty way though, where you have literally no freedom but you play basically simon says the game. And that DNF 2001 most certainly was not.

You seem to be extremely negative towards this DNF 2001 and I am legitmat interested what it has possibly done to you for such reactions to be given?

[Zaxx]

spessu_sb, on 09 March 2018 - 01:41 PM, said:

Can't agree with such call of duty/modern fps cliché comparison at all. If anything, it's like Doom 3 and Half-Life because atleast according to my observations, Duke Forever was heavily inspired by Half-Life 1 as were most games like the mentioned id's Doom 3.

Game being scripted is no kinda problem because Quake 2, Unreal and Half-Life are stil great to this day regardless of them having scripted sequences in them. Scripting is wrong when it's done the Call of Duty way though, where you have literally no freedom but you play basically simon says the game. And that DNF 2001 most certainly was not.

I was talking about the trailer, not the game.

Quote

You seem to be extremely negative towards this DNF 2001 and I am legitmat interested what it has possibly done to you for such reactions to be given?

I'm not negative towards DNF 2001, I'm negative towards DNF in general. I don't think that needs much of an explanation, I mean it's only the most embarrassing thing in game development history. But anyway, let's see:

- DNF ruined the Duke Nukem franchise. I honestly think that there is no coming back from this (especially with Gearbox's thinking where everything has to be AAA), it's dead thanks to that turd. Even Shadow Warrior is a bigger success now while a previously underdog franchise, Serious Sam is waving at poor fucked up Duke from the top of the money mountain. Now we're at a time where every single classic FPS franchise is coming back and even new ones like DUSK, Amid Evil and Ion Maiden are created... except for Duke, his balls are still aching from the beating DNF got.
- DNF is the project that ruined 3D Realms as a company.
- I didn't like the finished product very much: there is roughly 20% of the game that I love, 30% that I tolerate and 50% that I absolutely despise.
- DNF is what made me start viewing 3D Realms as an incompetent company. How on Earth was there no way to just get Broussard away from the project is something I'll never, ever understand.
- I'm sure that the time and money 3D Realms wasted on DNF had an effect on other franchises as well. That's why the original Prey never came out and that's why Human Head's Prey never got a sequel. Every time those jokers produced a hit they just blew the money on DNF.

Well, I guess that sums it up.

And as for DNF 2001: you may be right about the game but guess what, we'll never fucking know because it doesn't exist. Reality just called, its name is DNF 2011 and it stinks.

[PokeThePower]

Zaxx, on 09 March 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

How on Earth was there no way to just get Broussard away from the project is something I'll never, ever understand.

It's easy to understand. Go be a true 50/50 owner of a company with someone else and then you'll find out the hard way what your options really are if you reach irreconcilable differences. Neither person can make the other do anything and a legal battle would likely result in losing what value can still be salvaged from the company even with a train wreck like DNF in the mix.

[Zaxx]

SpotsSpot, on 09 March 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

It's easy to understand. Go be a true 50/50 owner of a company with someone else and then you'll find out the hard way what your options really are if you reach irreconcilable differences. Neither person can make the other do anything and a legal battle would likely result in losing what value can still be salvaged from the company even with a train wreck like DNF in the mix.

Yeah, that's what I figured too but it's still just too crazy that Scott Miller couldn't do a damn thing about it. I mean it was what, 12 years of development and really George never finished that game because it could only see the light of day when he was already out of the picture. A while back he even said publicly that the version of DNF that got released should have never seen store shelves and while I wholeheartedly agree with that opinion it's just another sign that the game would have never been finished if he stayed with the project. Based on that my conclusion is that George is a mentally ill person (I'm sorry but I can find no other explanation) and there are legal ways to get a crazy man out of your company.

[OpenMaw]

From everything we've ever been told or seen the build of DNF around this time had scripted events and sequences to be sure, but by and large you were going to be exploring environments, solving puzzles, and shooting badguys in levels that were seemingly at least pseudo open ended/non-linear.

A couple things... I wouldn't say Quake 2 had anything remotely like the kind of scripting that Half-Life or more modern games had. It had a few set pieces here and there, but for the most part, 99.9% of the game is you shooting dudes and solving puzzles.

Everything we ever heard indicated that you would not leave the first person view, and that the gameplay would not be interrupted, per se.

SpotsSpot, on 09 March 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

It's easy to understand. Go be a true 50/50 owner of a company with someone else and then you'll find out the hard way what your options really are if you reach irreconcilable differences. Neither person can make the other do anything and a legal battle would likely result in losing what value can still be salvaged from the company even with a train wreck like DNF in the mix.

So, your take is that the whole thing was down to... Creative differences between Scott and George?

Zaxx, on 09 March 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

Based on that my conclusion is that George is a mentally ill person (I'm sorry but I can find no other explanation) and there are legal ways to get a crazy man out of your company.

No. George may have been many things, but crazy isn't one of them. I'd say he was overly ambitious and too busy looking at other people were trying to do.

[Altered Reality]

Hindsight is alwys 20/20, but 3DRealms employees should have started a strike back in 1998 when George suggested to switch to Unreal. "No, the Quake 2 engine is what we've got and it's what we're gonna use to finish the game. And if that Hoover Dam you're getting boners about doesn't work with it, we're gonna cut that part altogether. We won't work anymore until you agree, and we are going to post all over the Internet why we're on strike."

Zaxx, on 09 March 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

Yeah, that's what I figured too but it's still just too crazy that Scott Miller couldn't do a damn thing about it. I mean it was what, 12 years of development and really George never finished that game because it could only see the light of day when he was already out of the picture.

Something even crazier is that some people want him back at 3DRealms!

[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 09 March 2018 - 03:35 PM, said:

No. George may have been many things, but crazy isn't one of them. I'd say he was overly ambitious and too busy looking at other people were trying to do.

But it's more than just ambition, really if you take a look at DNF's development (at least at what we can see from the outside as fans) it's a story about gradually losing your grasp with reality. When DNF started development it was an ambitious sequel to one of the best FPS games ever created, when it got released it was just a super outdated wreck of a game because in that 12 years the industry changed... A LOT. There were so many signs that said stuff like "you can't make an AAA game as an independent company anymore, look at all these giant publishers, you don't have the resources they have". Ignoring that because you're obsessed with some vision is crazy. It's not ambition, it's obsession.

[Zaxx]

Altered Reality, on 09 March 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

Something even crazier is that some people want him back at 3DRealms!

He should go and work for Gearbox: he runs the company to the ground in a few years, then Gearbox is forced to sell the Duke IP to Bethesda and we're back in business!

[PokeThePower]

Zaxx, on 09 March 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

Based on that my conclusion is that George is a mentally ill person (I'm sorry but I can find no other explanation) and there are legal ways to get a crazy man out of your company.

He's not and no there wasn't. George mismanaging a project being funded almost entirely by himself and his childhood friend is a far leap away from mental illness.

Commando Nukem, on 09 March 2018 - 03:35 PM, said:

So, your take is that the whole thing was down to... Creative differences between Scott and George?

No, Scott was only ever modestly involved creatively. However either one of them forcing the other to run the portion of the business they had established precedence as overseeing isn't something easily reconciled. You guys think there wasn't plenty of back and forth between them about the problems and costs through the years?

Altered Reality, on 09 March 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

Hindsight is alwys 20/20, but 3DRealms employees should have...

Out of curiosity what do you think the company reaction would be to something like that? There might be some people lurking around that have first hand knowledge how that plays out in real life.

Altered Reality, on 09 March 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

Something even crazier is that some people want him back at 3DRealms!

Acting in the same sort of role he played on Duke 3D would probably be a great thing for 3DR products.

[OpenMaw]

SpotsSpot, on 09 March 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

No, Scott was only ever modestly involved creatively. However either one of them forcing the other to run the portion of the business they had established precedence as overseeing isn't something easily reconciled. You guys think there wasn't plenty of back and forth between them about the problems and costs through the years?

Oh, no doubt. You have to understand though, for an outsider it's very difficult to actually get an understanding of what that relationship was like. Those of us who participated in the forums throughout those years only got slightly more insight than the average Joe public. Even watching the bits of George and Scott in the various pieces of Jace Hall's visit don't quite peel the curtain back, or the magazine interviews that came out over those early years. It's very nebulous. When you think of early id Software you think Carmack and Romero, and you know what their contributions were and how it lead to the excellent things that happened. With Apogee, 3D Realms, things are a lot murkier. Less is known. Especially because 3D Realms seemed to close up and seal itself off from public eye by 2001.

SpotsSpot, on 09 March 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Out of curiosity what do you think the company reaction would be to something like that? There might be some people lurking around that have first hand knowledge how that plays out in real life.

If we're talking 1998, I can only imagine that anyone who did that, something akin to "strike!", would get an "Okay. See ya." from TPTB. In 1998-2001 3D Realms was riding pretty freaking high off of their successes. I can't imagine it wouldn't have been easy to replace people with hungry young designers and artists chomping at the bit for a gig at a recognized game studio.

[William Gee]

I still haven't played DNF did I miss anything?

[Altered Reality]

SpotsSpot, on 09 March 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Out of curiosity what do you think the company reaction would be to something like that? There might be some people lurking around that have first hand knowledge how that plays out in real life.

In the scenario I hypothesized, there are two threats to the company:
1) a strike
2) a diffusion of potentially damaging private information

So, had the employees started the strike, the company could have fired them, and then the employees could have retaliated by suing the company for wrongful termination. As proof, they could release (to the judge, not to the public) emails where the company constantly describes the employees' work as "good", until the order to scrap everything and restart.
Had the employees gone ahead and talked about it on the Internet, only then the company would have a foothold for suing them for violating an NDA. If that, however, remained a verbal threat, we return to the former case: the employees get fired, and then they sue the company for wrongful termination.

[Ronin]

I still play DNF a for bit about once a year, still have fun with it as it's at least interesting.

A parody of a parody.

I wonder how it'd be received now if released now on Steam as a 20 bucks game without the baggage? I know it's impossible to view the game without the baggage as it's woven into the very fabric of the game, but it would be interesting to see, especially in this political climate.

I think it would do quite well.

[PokeThePower]

Commando Nukem, on 09 March 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

When you think of early id Software you think Carmack and Romero, and you know what their contributions were and how it lead to the excellent things that happened.

id had more than 2 owners which allowed for things like votes to resolve issues. I'm not 100% sure but I also think Carmack had the largest percentage ownership which helped establish the ability to break any standoffs that inevitably arise. When you've got 50/50... it's just an entirely different beast. While things are working (all the way up to Max Payne) it doesn't really matter much, but when you get into the iffy game of what to do about DNF there isn't a way to force the issue to resolve.

Commando Nukem, on 09 March 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

If we're talking 1998, I can only imagine that anyone who did that, something akin to "strike!", would get an "Okay. See ya." from TPTB. In 1998-2001 3D Realms was riding pretty freaking high off of their successes. I can't imagine it wouldn't have been easy to replace people with hungry young designers and artists chomping at the bit for a gig at a recognized game studio.

Why limit yourself to 1998? Seemed pretty easy to hire a new crop of experienced designers, producers, and artists in 2006 yeah?

Altered Reality, on 09 March 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

So, had the employees started the strike, the company could have fired them, and then the employees could have retaliated by suing the company for wrongful termination. As proof, they could release (to the judge, not to the public) emails where the company constantly describes the employees' work as "good", until the order to scrap everything and restart.

Texas is an at will state and it wouldn't have been wrongful termination. It is 100% the right and responsibility of the owners to be able to change their mind. We are hired to do what they ask and so long as they aren't asking us to do anything illegal it is entirely within their legal right to have us dig a hole then fill the hole just to dig it again.

If the employees are acting in a way that puts the company at risk (such as a strike) and the company hasn't violated any labor laws and met all the terms of employment people agreed to when choosing to work there, the employees not only have no leg to stand on it is the company's responsibility to get rid of the problem/threat. The only situation your suggestion could possibly apply is if a person had an agreement when they signed up to be employed that guaranteed a project release within a certain window of time, etc.