[Mark]

I fired off an email a few minutes ago for a router with 300Mbps throughput. I don't think my older devices support 5 GHZ. For $10 and free local pickup this sounds like a good candidate. Since the ad was short on details I asked to confirm if the wall pack is included and if the router works. Its going to be used seldom. Its mostly for when I head down to my basement workshop and I need to access some info on the equipment I'm working on if I didn't make a printout. Or once in a while check my email if I'm expecting one. I'll use it on my otherwise unused smartphone or if it turns out to be handy I'll buy a cheap used tablet. If for some reason it bogs down my speeds I can leave it disconnected most of the time. I'll know ahead of time when I'm going to need it and then connect it.
https://milwaukee.cr...6892425090.html

[Paul B]

Mark, on 08 June 2019 - 02:40 PM, said:

I fired off an email a few minutes ago for a router with 300Mbps throughput. I don't think my older devices support 5 GHZ. For $10 and free local pickup this sounds like a good candidate. Since the ad was short on details I asked to confirm if the wall pack is included and if the router works. Its going to be used seldom. Its mostly for when I head down to my basement workshop and I need to access some info on the equipment I'm working on if I didn't make a printout. Or once in a while check my email if I'm expecting one. I'll use it on my otherwise unused smartphone or if it turns out to be handy I'll buy a cheap used tablet. If for some reason it bogs down my speeds I can leave it disconnected most of the time. I'll know ahead of time when I'm going to need it and then connect it.
https://milwaukee.cr...6892425090.html

Yes, I am very familiar with the DIR-615. As i've seen and used them before. The problem with the DIR 615 is it is very old. You shouldn''t have to pay for something that old. Also the two routers I quoted you on are Dual Band which means they support devices running simultaneously at 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz for your newer mobile devices like laptops, cell phones tablettes etc. I wouldn't spend any money on the DIR 615 it's over 10 years old. A DIR 615 won't have a fast enough WAN Port for your internet connection. Mark you're kind of a magnet for problems. lol

[Mark]

Wireless is just a gimmick that I don't really need. I thought if I could get into it for almost nothing it was worth playing with. It doesn't matter though. I just received my reply and it doesn't include the power pack so I passed on it. If its 10 years old I'm suprised it still shows up as for sale new in a google search. Thats why I considered it. That it was still fairly new tech. Amazon, Walmart and Newegg still show it for sale for 36-38 dollars.

I googled those 2 suggested routers. Way more than I want to spend. If I had a real need and consistant use for one I wouldn't hesitate to pay that. But for something I may not even use after the ooh fun factor, its too much.

[Paul B]

Mark, on 08 June 2019 - 03:43 PM, said:

Wireless is just a gimmick that I don't really need. I thought if I could get into it for almost nothing it was worth playing with. It doesn't matter though. I just received my reply and it doesn't include the power pack so I passed on it. If its 10 years old I'm suprised it still shows up as for sale new in a google search. Thats why I considered it. That it was still fairly new tech. Amazon, Walmart and Newegg still show it for sale for 36-38 dollars.

I googled those 2 suggested routers. Way more than I want to spend. If I had a real need and consistant use for one I wouldn't hesitate to pay that. But for something I may not even use after the ooh fun factor, its too much.

Let me see if I can do better. Now days it's very handy to have local WIFI there is no way your ISP should be charging you for that. Maybe consider changing your ISP to one that will supply you with better equipment and service with free local WIFI. I haven't heard of any ISP charging for WIFI capability locally in your home that is ridiculous.

[Mark]

I have phone, internet and cable TV bundled together. Wanting wifi is no reason to switch to someone else. I've gone 20 years of internet without wanting wifi or a smartphone. Its not a large part of my life like most others. But you're right. I didn't even find that added charge on Spectrum's website.

[Paul B]

Come to think of it, the only network equipment I know of that charges for WIFI devices would be Cisco devices and their Airport access points. Cisco charges you for every single feature and marks it up 8000% just because they think they are the only player in the space. Wonder if that's the equipment they are using for your connection? Cisco\Airport\Meraki devices. A standard power cable for their layer 3 switches costing around $3000 is also used for 99% of all PC's is $15.00 and not included with the purchase of their devices. Talk about price fixing this company should be sued and shutdown for their criminal activities.

[Mark]

I think I'll just wait for a cheap used gigabit router to show up on Craigslist.

Look what showed up. https://milwaukee.cr...6905679630.html
Newegg shows 1 refurbished for $30 + free shipping.

[Paul B]

Mark, on 09 June 2019 - 08:12 AM, said:

I think I'll just wait for a cheap used gigabit router to show up on Craigslist.

Look what showed up. https://milwaukee.cr...6905679630.html
Newegg shows 1 refurbished for $30 + free shipping.

Cool, if you buy used just perform a factory reset on the device before you use it. Still has the original plastic attached. I wonder why they are selling.

[Mark]

I went with this instead. An "opened box" unit from Newegg.com.
TP-Link Archer C900 AC900 Wireless Dual Band Gigabit Router for $29.50 with tax and shipping.

If it ends up being just a fun distraction for a short time I can always sell it for half price on Craiglist.

BTW, if it doesn't restrict airflow or viewscreen visibility I leave protective plastic on my equipment too. I have a camera and a digital volt meter that have had their plastic on for probably 4-5 years now.

[Paul B]

Mark, on 09 June 2019 - 10:21 AM, said:

I went with this instead. An "opened box" unit from Newegg.com.
TP-Link Archer C900 AC900 Wireless Dual Band Gigabit Router for $29.50 with tax and shipping.

If it ends up being just a fun distraction for a short time I can always sell it for half price on Craiglist.

BTW, if it doesn't restrict airflow or viewscreen visibility I leave protective plastic on my equipment too. I have a camera and a digital volt meter that have had their plastic on for probably 4-5 years now.

Glad to hear you found something. When you get the router remember to call your ISP and have them Bridge your Modem so that it doesn't get in the way of your internal network. Then just connect your modem to the WAN port of the Router and you're set. Otherwise you'll run into that double NAT problem and if both subnets are the same it won't be able to route packets through your gateway.

[Mark]

Ah Geez. If I knew I had to contact customer support again I wouldn't have bought the darn router. I guess I have to now. Along with the frustration of dealing with customer support I worry that they will ask why I want them to bridge the modem and try to get a monthly charge out of me for wifi.
So if the modem goes into bridge mode I'll have to connect my other computer to the wireless router along with my regular computer because the modem will now be a single input instead of 4 ports?

[Forge]

I run mine unbridged
but I can access both mine and comcasts, so I can shut their broadcast completely off and only use it for lan. No interference signals.

if you're going to physically lan-wire them together, you really don't need to bridge them

my setup:
comcast modem connected to wall cable - lan wire out to netgear modem - netgear lan wire out to computer
comcast wifi shut off, netgear broadcasts

the netgear is powerfull enough to cover my house, but I have an extender at mid point anyway (just to drown out any broadcasts from my neighbors and my appliances - like the remote thermostat sensor for my pellet stove).

I did it that way because initially comcast allowed no way to password protect your home wifi -they wanted that socialized net neutrality coverage. Anybody could connect to your network and use your bandwitdth and there wasn't anything you could do about it - except what I did. It was also a security issue to allow anybody driving by on the street with a laptop to be able to connect to your home modem & network.

Even better - most normies don't know much about networking - they had comcast come install their equipment, set it up, then they'd just watch their cable tv and look at cat videos. They didn't realize that all comcast modems at the time had default "admin:password" as for logins.
I freaked my aunt and uncle out when I walked out to the sidewalk in front of their house with a laptop, logged into their modem, changed the user name & password, and shut all their services off.
Asked him if he wanted to take a ride around the neighborhood with the laptop.

If people upgraded to the x1 infinity service which became available a couple years ago w/new modem & cablebox, the policy was changed & all the modems come with unique passwords. People with the older equipment are still vulnerable.

[Paul B]

Most ISP's at least where I live buy a specific type of modem/router made by a third party where they force their own custom firmware onto the device which reduces their functionality. This is why I recommend bridging the modem to prevent the ISP from controlling the network, like what Mark is experiencing.

Sure you can run your third party router to handle the Internal network on the same network segment but that defeats the purpose of buying your own router. At the end of the day your Edge router is still controlled by your ISP and not your own device.

The purpose of Mark buying a router and not an access point/switch is to stop his ISP from controlling his network. Not all ISP's allow for functionality as what Mark is experiencing. Mark would be much better off simplifying his network as much as possible without needing to deal with his ISP's router interfering with his network.

I've setup thousands of Business edge routers and SOHO devices to know that I'd never setup a site like your home config Forge because when a device updates or defaults it's config you need to go back through all your settings to manually adjust the settings to make it work again or re-import a previous config assuming Mark knows how to change his router's internal subnet to match that of his ISP's LAN without causing an IP conflict before he can re-import the config.

Mark needs a simple setup where he can just plug and play. Not a network where he needs a custom gateway or having to shut off a rogue DHCP server. By the way bridging the modem eliminates the need to worry about the ISP controlling the routers username and password in case they use a cookie cutter deployment like you mentioned above Forge and prevents the ISP from controlling your internal network which should never happen.

Anyway the writing is on the wall. He can operate however he pleases but I sure know what I would do.

[Mark]

Part of the problem is that along with turning off wifi, Spectrum has somehow locked me out of logging in to their modem/router. I'm guessing they may have done a firmware update that changed the default username and password because they no longer work. Even after disconnecting the cable and doing a hard reset. I think thats a rotten thing to do.

[Forge]

Paul B, on 10 June 2019 - 12:06 AM, said:

Sure you can run your third party router to handle the Internal network on the same network segment but that defeats the purpose of buying your own router. At the end of the day your Edge router is still controlled by your ISP and not your own device.

completely false for this practical application.
the network can control their own router, but it does not have access to my unbridged one unless they brute force their way past the security - my router acts like a firewall between my equipment and the comcast router.
I can run my own router and put the comcast one on a shelf, but the network provider will still charge me for "renting" their modem & then charge me again for using my own equipment.

the router Mark has will broadcast wifi - the provider cannot see what it is doing, unless Mark leaves the security features off.

Quote

because when a device updates or defaults it's config you need to go back through all your settings to manually adjust the settings to make it work again

the only thing I have to do when the network forces their setups is to shut off their wifi, they can't access my router. Mark can't stop them from accessing their router, so your point is moot.


To ice it, I seriously doubt the network provider is just going to give Mark the SSID, WiFi security mode, wireless password, and operating frequency to their modem without a bunch of questions, then telling him no because it's obvious what he's doing.


The biggest advantage to bridging is for speed and coverage - Mark doesn't need them - and in my case, neither do I. Security and the network having control of their own modem are no different. If the network decided to change something about their wifi setting on their modem, it just destroyed the bridged connection, and there's nothing Mark can do about it.

[Mark]

One small piece of good news. I checked with my phone and the Spectrum wireless signal is no longer broadcasting like it had been. Now it no longer shows up on the list of neighborhood signals.

[Paul B]

Forge, on 10 June 2019 - 05:35 AM, said:

completely false for this practical application.
the network can control their own router, but it does not have access to my unbridged one unless they brute force their way past the security - my router acts like a firewall between my equipment and the comcast router.
I can run my own router and put the comcast one on a shelf, but the network provider will still charge me for "renting" their modem & then charge me again for using my own equipment.

the router Mark has will broadcast wifi - the provider cannot see what it is doing, unless Mark leaves the security features off.


the only thing I have to do when the network forces their setups is to shut off their wifi, they can't access my router. Mark can't stop them from accessing their router, so your point is moot.


To ice it, I seriously doubt the network provider is just going to give Mark the SSID, WiFi security mode, wireless password, and operating frequency to their modem without a bunch of questions, then telling him no because it's obvious what he's doing.


The biggest advantage to bridging is for speed and coverage - Mark doesn't need them - and in my case, neither do I. Security and the network having control of their own modem are no different. If the network decided to change something about their wifi setting on their modem, it just destroyed the bridged connection, and there's nothing Mark can do about it.

I'm sorry Forge but your statements are absolutely incorrect. I believe you are talking about double NAT'ing his network and he risks running into routing issues with the TP-Link being on the same default subnet as his ISP's internal network, which can cause routing problems. You can ask just about anyone how to setup a simple network and you're over complicating a simple setup by introducing more unnecessary hops and configurations to the internet than is necessary. God forbid if he has an Xbox other devices which requires ports to be opened. With a double NAT you just double your problems unnecessarily. Once a bridge is set on a modem I have never had an ISP change its roll unless it has been authorized by the customer. I also manage company’s all across Canada and the US and your means of connecting Mark to the internet is unorthodox for a home network.

Forge, on 10 June 2019 - 05:35 AM, said:

If the network decided to change something about their wifi setting on their modem, it just destroyed the bridged connection, and there's nothing Mark can do about it.

WIFI is not toggleable\visable or allowed to be enabled when the ISP's router is bridged. There is no firewall, DHCP or WIFI services available which means less headache for the customer and it limits what the ISP can do running in that mode. The modem would need to be re-provisioned which would require customer authorization.

[Forge]

you're right in what you're thinking, but you're wrong in how I have it set up

I have mine in the "After" scenario (with the "public wifi" in the server's modem shut off)

But you want to be the subject matter expert, so go ahead. Take charge, I won't say anything else to distract.


https://kb.netgear.c...with-Double-NAT

[Paul B]

Forge, on 10 June 2019 - 09:45 AM, said:

you're right in what you're thinking, but you're wrong in how I have it set up

I have mine in the "After" scenario (with the "public wifi" in the server's modem shut off)

But you want to be the subject matter expert, so go ahead. Take charge, I won't say anything else to distract.


https://kb.netgear.c...with-Double-NAT

The "After" picture you posted depicts exactly what I am trying to have Mark setup. The before picture (Not shown here) describes the way you are explaining how your connection to be setup which I am not in agreement with. Mark also was previously setup with a double NAT and had problems which he really needs to get away from. This requires the ISP modem to be bridged or Port Pass through to be enabled.

[Forge]

Paul B, on 10 June 2019 - 09:50 AM, said:

The "After" picture you posted depicts exactly what I am trying to have Mark setup. The before picture (Not shown here) describes the way you are explaining how your connection to be setup which I am not in agreement with. Mark also was previously setup with a double NAT and had problems which he really needs to get away from.

You're saying it has to be bridged to get the after.
It doesn't. They can be hard wired with lan cables

This is what you're telling him to do:




so he has to get the cable company to set it in bridge mode for him - or give him access to his modem - which they might not be willing to do.
But go on with the direction you're driving. I can't wait to hear wht his cable provider has to say about monkeying with his modem.

[Paul B]

Forge, on 10 June 2019 - 09:58 AM, said:

You're saying it has to be bridged to get the after.
It doesn't. They can be hard wired with lan cables

This is what you're telling him to do:




so he has to get the cable company to set it in bridge mode for him - or give him access to his modem - which they might not be willing to do.
But go on with the direction you're driving. I can't wait to hear wht his cable provider has to say about monkeying with his modem.

It's a simple call and if you can't set the setting yourself which I doubt he can since they seem to lock him out of changing anything he needs to call his ISP and request the modem be bridge on their end. It's really not a difficult thing to do and Mark doesn't even need to change anything. Just plug and play after that.

[Forge]

or he can just wire the together with lan cables, and not have to call his provider at all

but you keep fighting the good fight. Charge on trooper.

[Paul B]

Forge, on 10 June 2019 - 10:03 AM, said:

or he can just wire the together with lan cables, and not have to call his provider at all

but you keep fighting the good fight. Charge on trooper.

Does the ISP's Modem have a Public WAN port on it? So he can go from the ISP''s Public WAN port to the WAN port of his Router? I think your terminology is off which is why I am getting confused with what you are saying. You can't use a LAN to LAN to circumvent the problem. Otherwise what is the point of buying your own router if you're just going to bridge the two routers together internally. That's a big no no.

[Forge]

I was talking about the cables, not the ports. I should have simply used "ethernet" cable instead.

[Forge]

For Mark:

https://www.wikihow....ect-Two-Routers

[Mark]

[Forge]

lol
you probably want LAN to WAN. Like Paul said, LAN to LAN is kinda useless in your case.
LAN to LAN is kind of a dumb use for a second router - might as well just get an extender and save some money.

[Forge]

Apparently the subject matter expert disagrees - go ahead and go through the headache of dealing with your isp and get your server's modem Bridge turned on.

That way you can have your other modem rendered useless when they decide to update your firmware and reset their modem back to Bridge off.
It's what Paul would do, and he teh expurt.

[Mark]

Obviously I'm going to see what happens without bridging first. If its a can of worms I'll deal with it then.

If I don't get the main router bridged, would I be better off attaching the ethernet cable for the 2nd computer to the main router or my new one? If it makes a difference, I do not share files between them.

[Forge]

Just do what Paul said and call your ISP and tell them to shut off the NAT / turn on the bridge in your modem
When they ask why, tell them it interferes with your fathers pace-maker updates that come through his cell phone.