[MetHy]

Sure Wanton Destruction has some rough edges, the best example of that being The Docks, its relative emptiness and its total lack of shading, but overall unfinished or not, the design standards are higher than that of most other expansions, even compared to the likes of Duke It Out In DC.

I've probably already said this multiple times in the past but Monastery must be Robert Travis greatest achievement: it's at the same time conceptually grand, but also pays attention to the small details, probably has the best use of the C key of the editor (to make round shapes) of any Build map ever, and takes Romero's concept of "If you can see an unreachable place, it's actually a secret place you have to figure out how to reach" to an unmatched level.

[Jblade]

just because I'm pretty slow; this project is still active? Is it an official Voidpoint thing or a hobby/side project? Just curious, is all.

[jkas789]

Ninjakitty, on 20 September 2020 - 09:24 AM, said:

There's actually a lot more cohesiveness between maps in Wanton Destruction compared to the main game. Most maps in WD have connecting areas you can see from both maps so it makes sense where you came from and where you're going. Though if you ever stop to think about how there's a fishing market and the ocean on the 100th floor of a skyscraper it makes a little less sense at some points. Imo it's basically finished, it's already got a level of polish you can't find in the main game or other addons. But also I'm fairly sure the add-on is actually two episodes condensed into one since the box mentions two but the released game only supports replacing the code of honor episode. Not sure if that would have played a hand in trying to force maps together that might not really go together.

I would have to take your word for it. I personally don't like the Shadow Warrior expansions (frankly I hate Twin Dragons more than wanton destruction). I think some levels are impressive however others are just to much of a drag with cheap traps. I much prefer Shadow Warriors supperior flow and tighter level design IMO.

Then again I have shit taste (I like Penthouse Paradise and Redneck Rampage, at the very least in concept if not in level design) so for all I know I may be grossly wrong.

[Jimmy]

Nah. Even the base game has pretty shitty level design.

[Phredreeke]

Penthouse Paradise is actually a great map.

[jkas789]

Quote

Jimmy: Nah. Even the base game has pretty shitty level design.

I would hesitantly agree that some maps are a mixed bag. What I do think is that SW had a lot of cheap traps and that shadow ninjas are the worst.

Quote

Penthouse Paradise is actually a great map.

Would you believe if I told you this has become a point of contention between me and one of my best friends. I swear if you look past the porn it is a good map.

[Jimmy]

jkas789, on 24 September 2020 - 09:37 AM, said:

I would hesitantly agree that some maps are a mixed bag. What I do think is that SW had a lot of cheap traps and that shadow ninjas are the worst.

SW tried so hard to be different that it sometimes forgot about what just worked. It does have one the most god-tier weapon selections in any game. Most of the enemies are really good too, like you said, things like the Shadow Ninjas are just cheap, and Zilla is the most disappointing and boring boss fight ever. It's like they just didn't know what to do with the game sometimes. It has some of the best official BUILD engine maps, and some of the absolute worst. SW is absolutely the most intentionally cheap BUILD game. While Duke3D and Blood can be very cheap at times, there are plenty of things the player can do that are just as cheap that even the odds. SW is strongly imbalanced in that regard, because even something like the nuke can't just be used in any situation. And I can't really think of any tricks like using the Shrinker on the Battlelord. There are times in SW when you can just get absolutely rocked by a Shadow Ninja with no warning.

jkas789, on 24 September 2020 - 09:37 AM, said:

Would you believe if I told you this has become a point of contention between me and one of my best friends. I swear if you look past the porn it is a good map.

I find most people just assume it's bad because of the gimmick. And then among those who actually played it with a fresh memory of it that don't like it probably don't even like most of the original game's levels. There are some people out there in the retro community that think anything old is crap and only new stuff is good, which is bizarre. That's much more common over in the Doom community, the type of people that prefer MSPaint mods or abstract things that barely have gameplay. People who can't appreciate a classic map like Penthouse Paradise or other maps from the 1997-2003 period are mostly just spoiled or lack frame of reference.

[Ninety-Six]

Jimmy, on 24 September 2020 - 10:03 AM, said:

I find most people just assume it's bad because of the gimmick.

It's ironic, since I think this is the main the problem when looking at Duke 3D itself though a heavy quote-unquote "modern lens." Only see the sleaze and not the genuinely good gameplay and level design underneath.

Now granted, I don't think PP is a stellar map by any margin, and certainly not one of the most complex, but it has memorable setpieces (simple they may be), good enemy/ammo balance ratio (which I think is worth noting since it sends E2/E3 monsters at you while giving you only the E1 weapon roster, even with all secrets), a good theme, and is overall a very solid experience. At least in my opinion. Not amazing, but perfectly solid and I'm more than happy to replay it as part of my overall Duke 3D rotation.

[oasiz]

Jimmy, on 24 September 2020 - 10:03 AM, said:

SW tried so hard to be different that it sometimes forgot about what just worked. It does have one the most god-tier weapon selections in any game. Most of the enemies are really good too, like you said, things like the Shadow Ninjas are just cheap, and Zilla is the most disappointing and boring boss fight ever. It's like they just didn't know what to do with the game sometimes. It has some of the best official BUILD engine maps, and some of the absolute worst. SW is absolutely the most intentionally cheap BUILD game. While Duke3D and Blood can be very cheap at times, there are plenty of things the player can do that are just as cheap that even the odds. SW is strongly imbalanced in that regard, because even something like the nuke can't just be used in any situation. And I can't really think of any tricks like using the Shrinker on the Battlelord. There are times in SW when you can just get absolutely rocked by a Shadow Ninja with no warning.

It's very clear that SW was once a very different game, devstyle seems different to duke where sw was it's own distinctive game for almost 2 years before a clear transition started.
Once it came under 3DR and having Chuck doing models and the guys doing levels (I think even LL was involved?) they kind of duke'fied it and attempted to fix many things about it. This is where the "Asian Duke Nukem" aspect comes from and honestly things got a lot better from there, despite some really cool ideas in the old game.
Shareware really packs a ton of cool things, they give you a d3d-like experience, winning formula, but way more refined and different enough. I fully agree with weapons and enemies. In many ways it's a much more polished game.

Unfortunately I think the game falls apart on EP2 pretty early on as the cracks from the old game show up.
Half of the levels are more like "pagoda techbases" and random runic stuff. Any "generic default" in duke is still a city map which is very clear "hub-spoke" style where in SW they consist of sprawling mazes with lock/key setups placed wherever.
Many levels lack any distinctive features, like 3-4 easily fit the above description where in duke each one had something to say... "cinema, strip club, sushi, bank, flooded one, big earthquake/screen, movie set, hotel, post office, police station", most sorta generic is fahrenheit since the key area has barely even few sectors worth of detail aside from the firetruck, including freeway (which is really good though).

On paper it sounds amazing, duke3d with a ton of more natural hazards (sorta like rott had), unfortunately I feel like the game should've ditched some of the maps and split EP2 in to two since there is a lot of clashing style.

I guess going back to quote's original critique, I think SW was once a brilliant but boring mess of a game that was a really good template but should've had maybe 6months more dev. Many maps and cheap ninjas feel like quick hacks to get things shippable.

Quote

just because I'm pretty slow; this project is still active? Is it an official Voidpoint thing or a hobby/side project? Just curious, is all.

Work is happening :)
There is of course overlap with some people that worked on Fury and that might cause confusion with Voidpoint.
However this, like many projects (and how Fury started) is just a collaboration between people with a mutual interest.

This is being done as a hobby passion project and DK has an insane amount of research done by the team from any small fragments that they could find.

I just jumped recently to this project with some SW/DK assistance but it's clear that the end result will be about as "official" as possible, VP or not.

[Hendricks266]

Jblade, on 24 September 2020 - 02:12 AM, said:

just because I'm pretty slow; this project is still active? Is it an official Voidpoint thing or a hobby/side project? Just curious, is all.

Hendricks266, on 18 September 2020 - 04:21 PM, said:

We've got good things in the works. Will share more when the time is right.

The project will be under the Voidpoint banner but it is still freeware and volunteer.

[Sanek]

It's cool that the project's still in the works, however...from what I understand, the release of a finished title will only be possible if Joe Wilcox will find some original contracts that he signed with WizardWorks or smtn? Did he find it? What if he didn't find it?

[Phredreeke]

I believe the rights reverted back to the developers, same as with Twin Dragon and Wanton Destruction

[Jimmy]

Basically everyone involved with the IP is either cool with it or doesn't legally exist anymore.

[jkas789]

Quote

Basically everyone involved with the IP is either cool with it or doesn't legally exist anymore.

It is amazingly wholesome when things like this happen.

[Jimmy]

Devolver are Kings.

[Sanek]

i understand that whatever entity that was involved don't care about the product by now. The question is that Wilcox himself won't approve the release of DK unless he finds some contracts he signed 20+ years ago.

[MetHy]

oasiz, on 24 September 2020 - 11:40 AM, said:

Unfortunately I think the game falls apart on EP2 pretty early on as the cracks from the old game show up.

If you ask me the only real offenders are level 8: Zilla's Villa and level 9: Monastery. Pretty much everything about those two levels scream of a pre-DN3D era of FPS level design, and if my memory from the betas is correct, at least Monastery is indeed a very old map.

Hara-Kiri Harbor and Raider of the Lost Wang, despite having uninspired key use (get a key to open a room with a key in it and repeat) still manage to feel very much like true Build era maps thanks, among other things, to their stronger thematic cohesion, the way they're anchored deeper into realistic design cues, and their more awe-some use of effects.

Every other level in the game is great if you ask me, but my favourite must be Water Torture and the impressive feeling of 3D and grandeur that emanates from it despite only being a few corridors and a few rooms big.

[the_raven]

Hotdog! This sounds great! Will there be some kind of site-wide notification when and if this is finally released?

[Sledgehammer]

Jimmy, on 24 September 2020 - 03:48 PM, said:

Devolver are Kings.

They may become Gods if they allow Voidpoint to make a new SW game.

Despite all flaws, original SW is still a much better game than modern ones, and Voidpoint could make the game even better, something more than just "Asian Duke Nukem" or "not-like other FPS" games in general, in a good way.

[necroslut]

Sledgehammer, on 01 October 2020 - 10:28 AM, said:

They may become Gods if they allow Voidpoint to make a new SW game.

Despite all flaws, original SW is still a much better game than modern ones, and Voidpoint could make the game even better, something more than just "Asian Duke Nukem" or "not-like other FPS" games in general, in a good way.

I'd love to see this. Like, really.

[Ninjakitty]

Imagine the original Shadow Warrior remade for the Quake engine with 3D graphics :)

[jkas789]

I'm fine with both this:

Quote

They may become Gods if they allow Voidpoint to make a new SW game.

Despite all flaws, original SW is still a much better game than modern ones, and Voidpoint could make the game even better, something more than just "Asian Duke Nukem" or "not-like other FPS" games in general, in a good way.

and this:

Quote

Imagine the original Shadow Warrior remade for the Quake engine with 3D graphics :)

If this two happened either officially or organically from the community I would have a boner harder than duke's balls of steel.


And if you actually think about it, Deadly Kiss eventually releasing involves afaik many people of Voidpoint working on it as a labor of love sooo...1/2 I gues? ;)


A man gotta have the ability to dream, lest we all become Randy Pitchford.

[Bubble Gum Chewer]

 jkas789, on 05 October 2020 - 09:31 PM, said:

-snip-

Voidpoint making new SW game would be best, as I am, personally, not too fond of anything Quake. Well maybe except for music Trent and Sonic Mayhem did for series.

As for (not) becoming Randy Pitchford, one also needs to finish their levels and avoid getting involved with big publishers. I also sense degree of self loathing within him, but I might be only one.

[Sanek]

Sanek, on 24 September 2020 - 02:39 PM, said:

It's cool that the project's still in the works, however...from what I understand, the release of a finished title will only be possible if Joe Wilcox will find some original contracts that he signed with WizardWorks or smtn? Did he find it? What if he didn't find it?

Nobody answered my question.

[mxrtxn]

I am more than willing to help Voidpoint with the creative aspect of Deadly Kiss.

Since the addon story is in Japan, here´s some ideas, for recycling the female enemy:

https://i.imgur.com/zJlmwxX.png


Any feedback is more than welcomed :)


P.S. The voxelized female ninja is from the updated Shadow Warrior Voxel Pack: https://forums.duke4...ior-voxel-pack/

[OpenMaw]

 Bubble Gum Chewer, on 06 October 2020 - 07:13 AM, said:

Voidpoint making new SW game would be best, as I am, personally, not too fond of anything Quake. Well maybe except for music Trent and Sonic Mayhem did for series.

As for (not) becoming Randy Pitchford, one also needs to finish their levels and avoid getting involved with big publishers. I also sense degree of self loathing within him, but I might be only one.

Just curious, why don't you like Quake?

[jkas789]

Out of curiosity, was there ever a plan to release Deadly Kiss on SW Redux?

While looking for the steam profile backgrounds and wallpapers to use on my PC I came across this:

https://i.imgur.com/3yOAqDO.jpg

When looking at the files name, it comes as Shadow_Warrior_Classic_Redux_Background_Deadly_Kiss

So was there ever a plan? What happened?

Edit: Got curious to see if the background was still on steam and yup, it is.

[Bubble Gum Chewer]

 OpenMaw, on 24 October 2020 - 10:00 PM, said:

Just curious, why don't you like Quake?

1 and 2, are slow, boring with underwhelming boss fights and some parts being harder than they should be. No matter how many times I played, regardless of difficulty or mods, I couldn't stand them and had to force myself to finish playthrough.

3 was just id's attempt at doing UT only to somehow overlook that game is lacking in team based modes department and sell said modes later on... As an expansion pack. Almost like horse armor before horse armor.

Quake 4? CoD and little Halo mixed together, with Activision and Raven thinking Quake name, engine from id and Stroggs will make people love it. Or make it a good, enjoyable experience.

Quake (3) (Part 3 We are doing it) Live and Quake Champions? Just no... Unreal Tournaments, Overwatch and Paladins did same things better.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity since I am overstepping my boundaries as it is by doing this.

 jkas789, on 25 October 2020 - 01:11 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, was there ever a plan to release Deadly Kiss on SW Redux?

While looking for the steam profile backgrounds and wallpapers to use on my PC I came across this:

https://i.imgur.com/3yOAqDO.jpg

When looking at the files name, it comes as Shadow_Warrior_Classic_Redux_Background_Deadly_Kiss

So was there ever a plan? What happened?

Edit: Got curious to see if the background was still on steam and yup, it is.

I remember having this in my inventory in past. One bitchin' background. As for Deadly Kiss for Redux? Unlikely there were such plans, imo. I mean expansion was in unfinished state back then (once again in my opinion) and Devolver was still new name for some people such as myself.

Alrighty, back to topic.

[Phredreeke]

My guess is Devolver believed Deadly Kiss to be close to finished and would be added to Redux in a future update

[OpenMaw]

 Bubble Gum Chewer, on 25 October 2020 - 06:42 AM, said:

1 and 2, are slow, boring with underwhelming boss fights and some parts being harder than they should be. No matter how many times I played, regardless of difficulty or mods, I couldn't stand them and had to force myself to finish playthrough.

3 was just id's attempt at doing UT only to somehow overlook that game is lacking in team based modes department and sell said modes later on... As an expansion pack. Almost like horse armor before horse armor.

Quake 4? CoD and little Halo mixed together, with Activision and Raven thinking Quake name, engine from id and Stroggs will make people love it. Or make it a good, enjoyable experience.

Quake (3) (Part 3 We are doing it) Live and Quake Champions? Just no... Unreal Tournaments, Overwatch and Paladins did same things better.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity since I am overstepping my boundaries as it is by doing this.

No I was simply curious as it was an interesting remark. Not a lot of people necessarily clarify their remarks when they say they don't like Quake beyond "It's just a 3D Doom clone" or "It's obviously multiplayer focused."


....Overstepping your boundaries by giving your opinion?