[PokeThePower]

Hendricks266, on 09 July 2017 - 01:58 AM, said:

Don't forget Vacation Dukematch

I try hard to forget the Vacation DM maps.

This did spur me to discover NUKEMDAVE's DV map which is a superior Stadium style arena than the ones I made.

[Minigunner]

necroslut, on 09 July 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Adding an element of inventory management where it's not needed does not make a game better but the opposite. The school of FPS design where you have six, barely distinguishable machine guns need to die.

Well, the thing with that is that a good slot limitation is one where you can go throughout the whole game with what you have, then go through the next playthrough with another batch of weaponry that also works alright. In the case of a game within a franchise known for the weapon loadout taking all (or most) number keys, having all number slots usable, with weapons dedicated to each slot that don't overpower each other while still being unique in their own purpose, is an ideal.

On another note, this talk has obviously reinvigorated the beta-beggars. That is highly annoying and will do naught but hinder the efforts (and motivation) of those trying to make things happen. For their sake, please be supportive and patient.

[Gambini]

I take one line of what Richard said: "we have to create more value than what we spend creating it" it´s worth a meme with his face!!

[kaisersoze]

Nice to see you here Randy!

Patiently awaiting any new "news" on Duke you can share.

Hello to everyone else! Been awhile! Love you all,

Always believe,

Always.

Kaisersoze

[Hendricks266]

Did you eat your underwear in 2011?

[OpenMaw]

kaisersoze, on 11 July 2017 - 05:26 AM, said:

Nice to see you here Randy!

Patiently awaiting any new "news" on Duke you can share.

Hello to everyone else! Been awhile! Love you all,

Always believe,

Always.

Kaisersoze

Kaiser! You son of a bitch!

[kaisersoze]

Hendricks266, on 11 July 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Did you eat your underwear in 2011?

I did back on the old original 3drealms forums. Posted pics and everything!

Hope all is well with you all! Nice to see you Commando! Love you Yatta!

If anyone still plays DNF multiplayer(criminally under-rated imho) or wants to get a specific day to play,
let me know!

-Kaiser(ate his underwear)Soze

[Yatta]

kaisersoze, on 12 July 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

I did back on the old original 3drealms forums. Posted pics and everything!

Hope all is well with you all! Nice to see you Commando! Love you Yatta!

If anyone still plays DNF multiplayer(criminally under-rated imho) or wants to get a specific day to play,
let me know!

-Kaiser(ate his underwear)Soze

Welcome back! Love you too.

[Tea Monster]

I don't know if anyone still plays DNF any more. I haven't played in about 3 years or so. Last time I did, there weren't many players around.

Lack of modding tools really killed it.

[gemeaux333]

I still play DNF by now, and I have 205 hours to the counter since it's release...

Did anyone managed to make a summary of the stream ?

[spessu_sb]

Tea Monster, on 12 July 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

I don't know if anyone still plays DNF any more. I haven't played in about 3 years or so. Last time I did, there weren't many players around.

Lack of modding tools really killed it.

I have this weird habbit where I play the sp almost per every year through once, I don't know why but I am willing to do it. I'm guessing this has something to do with having to have had to wait 14/whatever years for it. But I'm not just play playing rushing it but instead I do always try to observe if I maybe have perhaps missed some cool/facinating ad/sign/thing in it and I tend to want to screenshot alot of the locations. So really I suppose I'm not playing it because the gameplay would be so cool, no. Probably would be safe to say that I keep playing it due the the history part.

Currently again playing it on DIG. First time I've done so since years because the DIG difficulty is kinda bs. Forexample on the Dukeburger outdoor part where you climb the tower, that turret section on that EDF crashed ship was very annoying. I'm just "looking forward to" the Octaking fight part inside that dam because I remember that being something even more than annoying..

I played the mp for the first in 2017 with some friends since previously I had no interest for it because I don't dig regen based mp games at all really. I have owned the game since 2011.

I really hope randy would get the "2K situation" solved and against all odds.. we'd actually get the DukeEd.

[Minigunner]

What keeps me coming back to the game is that some of the levels have a kind of charm reminiscent of Duke3D a little bit (largely due to Allen Blum being one of the level designers).

[hismasterplan]

I play the single player once every year and half, also for historical value. There are some tweaks I do to make the game more enjoyable but some would find it tedious: don't use ammo crates, unless absolutely necessary. Start the game with the mothership battle, skipping all that filler in the beginning. Turn the dialog off during The Hive, or anywhere else cringe worthy. Sometimes skipping certain sections helps too and makes the game feel better paced.

[LkMax]

spessu_sb, on 12 July 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

I have this weird habbit where I play the sp almost per every year through once, I don't know why but I am willing to do it.

Stockholm syndrome.

spessu_sb, on 12 July 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

Currently again playing it on DIG. First time I've done so since years because the DIG difficulty is kinda bs. Forexample on the Dukeburger outdoor part where you climb the tower, that turret section on that EDF crashed ship was very annoying. I'm just "looking forward to" the Octaking fight part inside that dam because I remember that being something even more than annoying..

That part was annoying at first, but it can be very easy if you carry a shrinker with you at this level (for dealing with the annoying octabrains).

[PsychoGoatee]

kaisersoze, on 12 July 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

I did back on the old original 3drealms forums. Posted pics and everything!

Hope all is well with you all! Nice to see you Commando! Love you Yatta!

If anyone still plays DNF multiplayer(criminally under-rated imho) or wants to get a specific day to play,
let me know!

-Kaiser(ate his underwear)Soze

I've been playing DNF multiplayer again lately, fun stuff. There's been a bunch of people playing it today. I'm always on board for some Duke action.

[Player Lin]

Sadly, even I want to try play the DNF MP, the ping just high enough(200+ or even worst, >300) to got my ass kicked so hard...

[Never Forgotten]

PsychoGoatee, on 14 July 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

I've been playing DNF multiplayer again lately, fun stuff. There's been a bunch of people playing it today. I'm always on board for some Duke action.

I've tried playing it on the Xbox, sadly since getting Xbox Live in November, I've only ever played with one person, I did kick his ass though. It seems no one plays the MP on the Xbox, which is a shame, because I found that more enjoyable than the campaign.

[king karl]

I'm a little worried that randy wants to "innovate" with duke.....at this point the most innovative thing anybody could do is produce another 90s st yle FPS with great level design and no regenerating health, doom 4 may have been an ok game but it was no 90s shooter

I think producing a real 90s shooter would be the greatest kind of innovation right now....people have forgotten what real level design can do for their gaming experience

[MusicallyInspired]

I think Doom 2016 definitely had elements of 1990s shooter level design. There was a lot of back and forth in many areas (think that first hell level). It was more hub-like than linear for sure. It wasn't the same as a 90s shooter of course overall, but it was closer than anything else has been in ages. (anything triple A anyway)

[axl]

king karl, on 22 July 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

I'm a little worried that randy wants to "innovate" with duke.....at this point the most innovative thing anybody could do is produce another 90s st yle FPS with great level design and no regenerating health, doom 4 may have been an ok game but it was no 90s shooter

I think producing a real 90s shooter would be the greatest kind of innovation right now....people have forgotten what real level design can do for their gaming experience

I understand what you're saying and seeing Duke back in its 90s roots with great leveldesign and 90s rules (no regenerating health, ...) would be really awesome. But I wouldn't call it "innovating". It would be regarded as a "retro shooter".

In its heyday, Duke Nukem 3D was extremely innovating: it was the first FPS with realistic level design (no longer only dark underground bases or space stations, ...), the first FPS with a an actual character that could speak, the first FPS that featured a high interactivity with the environment, etc etc etc... It was groundbreaking at the time.

To be innovating in FPS nowadays is really hard. In my opinion the last really innovative FPS is probably Half-Life 2.

There are a lot of games out there that label themselves as retro shooters... the Shadow Warrior reboots, Dusk, Strafe... but to be frankly, they don't achieve their goal. Ion Maiden on the other hand, could be the real shit. My money is on them.

[king karl]

MusicallyInspired, on 22 July 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

I think Doom 2016 definitely had elements of 1990s shooter level design. There was a lot of back and forth in many areas (think that first hell level). It was more hub-like than linear for sure. It wasn't the same as a 90s shooter of course overall, but it was closer than anything else has been in ages. (anything triple A anyway)

I found it sorta flat empty and all the same looking, I think people say backtracking is an integral part of oldschool level design but I think they say that because the more true elements of it are much harder to articulate

I had to use the map to go anywhere in that game because it all looked the same.....and every combat encounter started with the door locking behind me which just isn't oldschool.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yeah the game is very monotone in colour scheme, but I think that just aids the atmosphere. Luckily the map is really easy to read. The arena style areas certainly aren't oldschool, but that's just for combat. The levels definitely involve running around a big hub unlocking areas you couldn't access before. Many many of them. That's pretty much the sense of old school level design. This is no linear corridor shooter. If you don't agree, what would you consider 90s level design?

[king karl]

MusicallyInspired, on 22 July 2017 - 03:00 PM, said:

Yeah the game is very monotone in colour scheme, but I think that just aids the atmosphere. Luckily the map is really easy to read. The arena style areas certainly aren't oldschool, but that's just for combat. The levels definitely involve running around a big hub unlocking areas you couldn't access before. Many many of them. That's pretty much the sense of old school level design. This is no linear corridor shooter. If you don't agree, what would you consider 90s level design?

I was thinking of making a thread exlcusively the defining the different elements of duke as it would be really helpful if we had a short bulleted list of of things that are essential to the oldschool design rather than the bland "no regenerating health and carry every weapon" the carry every weapon thing is true but while I don't like the regen health the main reason is because we can't keep every encounter meaningful unless its a horde with a regen health system

so here are some more essential elements of oldschool level design:
-If the player started every level with just the starting weapon could they complete the level in an enjoyable way? the answer must be yes
-every level should loop back into itself in enough places to double as a multiplayer level
-the player must be able to walk from the end of the level to the beginning even if they have no reason to
-the doors (by in large) must not lock behind the player just to keep combat interesting (the occasional ambush is a fine exception)
-a specific button for interacting with the environment must be dedicated and should be employed for both secret doors, doors, and switches
-while a map may be present the level should be intuitive enough that the average player never needs it

[MusicallyInspired]

king karl, on 22 July 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

-while a map may be present the level should be intuitive enough that the average player never needs it

Newcomers to Wolfenstein 3D would have this issue.

[necroslut]

MusicallyInspired, on 22 July 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

Newcomers to Wolfenstein 3D would have this issue.

Wolfenstein 3D doesn't have a map, though.

I think part of the problem here, and in similar debates elsewhere, is referring to a singular "old-school" or "90's design". There wasn't just one strain of 90's FPS design - Build-game level design is not the same as in Doom, Quake or Wolfenstein 3D. They do share common ingredients and overlap quite a bit, but there's no single "old school FPS" design to resurrect. Just like there's no single "90's platformer" or "90's RPG" design.

king karl, on 22 July 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

I was thinking of making a thread exlcusively the defining the different elements of duke as it would be really helpful if we had a short bulleted list of of things that are essential to the oldschool design rather than the bland "no regenerating health and carry every weapon" the carry every weapon thing is true but while I don't like the regen health the main reason is because we can't keep every encounter meaningful unless its a horde with a regen health system

so here are some more essential elements of oldschool level design:
-If the player started every level with just the starting weapon could they complete the level in an enjoyable way? the answer must be yes
-every level should loop back into itself in enough places to double as a multiplayer level
-the player must be able to walk from the end of the level to the beginning even if they have no reason to
-the doors (by in large) must not lock behind the player just to keep combat interesting (the occasional ambush is a fine exception)
-a specific button for interacting with the environment must be dedicated and should be employed for both secret doors, doors, and switches
-while a map may be present the level should be intuitive enough that the average player never needs it

These points all apply to Duke, and to some extent the other Build shooters, but less so to other 90's shooters. I think it illustrates my earlier point.

[Forge]

king karl, on 22 July 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

so here are some more essential elements of oldschool level design:

What you need to do is to convince the developer to redistribute their memory allocations:
- less memory to cut-scenes and eye-candy.
- dedicate more memory to game-play aspects, features, & level design

[king karl]

necroslut, on 22 July 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

Wolfenstein 3D doesn't have a map, though.

I think part of the problem here, and in similar debates elsewhere, is referring to a singular "old-school" or "90's design". There wasn't just one strain of 90's FPS design - Build-game level design is not the same as in Doom, Quake or Wolfenstein 3D. They do share common ingredients and overlap quite a bit, but there's no single "old school FPS" design to resurrect. Just like there's no single "90's platformer" or "90's RPG" design.


These points all apply to Duke, and to some extent the other Build shooters, but less so to other 90's shooters. I think it illustrates my earlier point.

well build engine design is the pinnacle of the 90s shooter and should be used as the model, doom and wolfenstein were still limited from the potential and lack of experience and as soon as quake started to sacrifice number of enemies for 3d models it started to slide downhill. Many criticized quake at its release for a drab boring level design compared to duke 3d so any attempt at capturing the essence of the perfect 90s shooter should take quake with some derision.

[Hank]

king karl, on 22 July 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

well build engine design is the pinnacle of the 90s shooter and should be used as the model, doom and wolfenstein were still limited from the potential and lack of experience and as soon as quake started to sacrifice number of enemies for 3d models it started to slide downhill. Many criticized quake at its release for a drab boring level design compared to duke 3d so any attempt at capturing the essence of the perfect 90s shooter should take quake with some derision.

That's a bit much, even on a Duke Fan site.
Duke Nukem was a good game. Quake was a good game, also. I happen to prefer Quake, because it suited my playing style. As for the game critics, the final score, Quake is on top, by five points.
http://www.metacriti...m/game/pc/quake
http://www.metacriti...c/duke-nukem-3d

The only reason, Duke is still around is due to the efforts of the fans, with a shitload of TCs and Mods, and EDuke32.

[axl]

necroslut, on 22 July 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

I think part of the problem here, and in similar debates elsewhere, is referring to a singular "old-school" or "90's design". There wasn't just one strain of 90's FPS design - Build-game level design is not the same as in Doom, Quake or Wolfenstein 3D. They do share common ingredients and overlap quite a bit, but there's no single "old school FPS" design to resurrect. Just like there's no single "90's platformer" or "90's RPG" design.


These points all apply to Duke, and to some extent the other Build shooters, but less so to other 90's shooters. I think it illustrates my earlier point.

Hmmm, you've got a strong point right there:

- id Software's shooters (Wolfenstein, Doom, Doom 2, Quake and Quake 2) focused a lot more on gameplay than leveldesign (maybe apart from the Romero levels in Doom 1 and 2). Level design was also far more abstract;
- Build Engine games: level design is indeed much more important, focussing on real life environments;
- Half-Life: level design was far more linear and story-dependent;
- ...

So we/they should focus on the essential points that made the level design in the Build Engine games shine and this should be combined with the gameplay from id software's shooters. And you've got the best of both worlds

[PsychoGoatee]

Since we're talking about a new Duke game, I agree, plus Duke 3D happens to be my favorite in terms of level design. But for me Quake 1 is a bit of a masterclass in level design as well, and the encounters feel quite hectic so I don't see any downsides in anything Quake did myself. Actually I'll prefer that over the Serious Sam / Painkiller direction of tons and tons of enemies, which can be tedious to shoot for me. Though I agree a lot of FPS games these days have too few enemies, or ones that are too bullet-spongey.