[axl]

I love reading and watching reviews for old games. And especially games that have a very special place in my heart.

However it strikes me that a lot of reviewers nowadays refer to Duke Nukem 3D as a sort of "relic", a game important back in the day, but should have been left there in the past. You never see the same criticism for other contemporary classic FPS like Wolfenstein 3D, Doom or Quake. In these list of "best FPS games of all time", Doom and Quake are always listed. And this is off course justified as they are timeless classics. But Duke Nukem 3D is often forgotten or left out.

The I read this article and found it very interesting:

https://www.polygon....em-forever-hope

Duke Nukem 3D is indeed often wrongfully remembered for the "game where you could give money to strippers... ". What some people forget is the unmatched and fast gameplay, arguably the best level design in a FPS besides John Romero's work, the excellent and balanced weapon arsenal and the brilliant music.

[Sanek]

axl, on 09 December 2017 - 01:49 AM, said:

I love reading and watching reviews for old games. And especially games that have a very special place in my heart.

However it strikes me that a lot of reviewers nowadays refer to Duke Nukem 3D as a sort of "relic", a game important back in the day, but should have been left there in the past. You never see the same criticism for other contemporary classic FPS like Wolfenstein 3D, Doom or Quake. In these list of "best FPS games of all time", Doom and Quake are always listed. And this is off course justified as they are timeless classics. But Duke Nukem 3D is often forgotten or left out.

The I read this article and found it very interesting:

https://www.polygon....em-forever-hope

Duke Nukem 3D is indeed often wrongfully remembered for the "game where you could give money to strippers... ". What some people forget is the unmatched and fast gameplay, arguably the best level design in a FPS besides John Romero's work, the excellent and balanced weapon arsenal and the brilliant music.

Yeah, it ofthen bugged me too that Duke doesn't have as much cult following as Doom and Quake. But the sad thing about DN3D is that it doesn't really have such place in history of videogames as Id games have. It was a huge hit back in the day, but it doesn't matter even back then, since it was released just a few months before Quake.

[Mark]

What I would like for a new Duke game is probably more feasible for a TC since a large gaming company wouldn't want to take a chance on it. That is putting Duke into a totally different environment such as a horror/survival game. Or travel back in time to New York City for a Kingpin styled game. Just something that takes Duke out of his element but still allows his trademark humor and kickass style to show. New enemies mixed with the old is fine by me. A combo of linear and non-linear sounds good too. Driving vehicles, meh...

Someone posted earlier about a reboot of the original levels in modern graphics. Having been part of the HHR project I like the idea. But I know there is a huge swath of players that would react to it like Dracula to a cross. Maybe tack on a couple of original maps as bonus material but I don't think its a money maker as the whole game.

[NNC]

Back then I didn't even notice it was a parody game. Moreover, the guy who installed the game demo on my PC switched the adult mode on with a password, and I didn't know that the game had strippers and such.

Yet, it still captured my attention like no other games since then (except for Shadow Warrior, the asian version). I liked the guns, the monsters (pigcops and octabrains were like nothing else really, or drones and commanders in the full version), the sceneries (I still think Allen Blum is one of the greatest designers of all time, but some usermappers also made wonderful work), I was stunned by The Abyss and its eerie atmospher, the moon scenery of Dark Side, the stormy outside of Derelict etc., it was a game that was made for me. I really don't know why it didn't age well for most people, and why many remember it for all the wrong reasons. I liked Doom a lot back in the day, but neither the weapons, nor the enemies were as interesting as of Duke, and the levels were just brown corridorts. Id had better marketing for sure. I think 3DRealms should have released Duke Forever around 2001, to keep the spotlight on. All the DNF saga tarnished the game's legacy.

[hismasterplan]

Nancsi, on 09 December 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

Back then I didn't even notice it was a parody game.

I was too young to realize that but it was only parody on a secondary level, unlike modern Duke. Duke had his own universe back then; art direction, enemies, worlds. If the new Duke focuses on what made Duke stand out then that should do away with those critics. I think the next Duke should rarely parody something. Even his lines should be original. Hire an old action screenwriter.

[NNC]

hismasterplan, on 09 December 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

I was too young to realize that but it was only parody on a secondary level, unlike modern Duke. Duke had his own universe back then; art direction, enemies, worlds. If the new Duke focuses on what made Duke stand out then that should do away with those critics. I think the next Duke should rarely parody something. Even his lines should be original. Hire an old action screenwriter.

The next Duke should be Duke Nukem Jr. with a new voice actor... I think it would be an interesting idea with competent people working on it.

[BestViking]

axl, on 09 December 2017 - 01:49 AM, said:

Duke Nukem 3D is indeed often wrongfully remembered for the "game where you could give money to strippers... ". What some people forget is the unmatched and fast gameplay, arguably the best level design in a FPS besides John Romero's work, the excellent and balanced weapon arsenal and the brilliant music.

It can't just be us who have immense nostalgia associations to Duke Nukem 3D. I'd guess the only ones considering Duke as "forgettable" are Gen Z, or easily offended milennials who either didn't like it or played it when it had become "outdated" and no longer considered groundbreaking, because it WAS groundbreaking at its time.

Doom didn't have the ability to look up and down, and the movement was not as smooth and free as in Duke. Not to mention you could jump, duck, swim, fly, etcetra. Because of the better engine which also allows slopes, which Doom did not at the time(only modded engine), and generally allowing for more complex constructions, the developers could create realistic environments that were believable at the time. I remember playing the demo and was blown away by how realistic it was. And that was in 640x480 resolution! It was an insane experience at that time. Totally mind blowing.

I remember actually feeling like Quake and Quake 2 were downgrades because the low res, low poly models made everything look more square than the rounder sprite graphics. IMO, Duke kept up very well with those games and I'd go as far as to say Duke held his ground until Half-Life came around before you could really begin to speak of it being outclassed.

[hismasterplan]

Please excuse the off topic question - when 3D Realms was folding and Gearbox stepped in to finish DNF, were there any other developers who also offered to come in to finish? Was it only Gearbox or were they the highest bidder?

[Never Forgotten]

hismasterplan, on 10 December 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

Please excuse the off topic question - when 3D Realms was folding and Gearbox stepped in to finish DNF, were there any other developers who also offered to come in to finish? Was it only Gearbox or were they the highest bidder?

Based on my research, Take-Two was trying to buy Duke, and 3D Realms didn't want them to, so Gearbox stepped in and they willingly sold the rights to Gearbox.

[Tea Monster]

Don't confuse people not liking DNF and modern incarnations of The King with a general dislike of Duke Nukem. Whenever I've spoken to anyone about gaming, there is a lot of nostalgia and love for the old DOS game. A big grin and "Who wants some!" is the usual reply when asked about Duke Nukem.

Although there is a lot of derision on DNF and the franchise at the moment, I think that people still love the older games. Rather like Doctor Who in the 90's, it has to go through a long period of being mis-handled by people who have no idea what they are hanging onto, before someone who properly 'gets' it can have a crack of the whip. Also, like Doctor Who, once it comes back properly, it will be huge.

[Mark]

I still say that there are too many old school players that have become comfortable with Duke3D in it's original form. Any deviation is wrong to them. Some will accept minor variations. Change either the res of graphics or the renderer and you've alienated a lot of people. Even if you capture the "essence" of Duke in the new game it will be too radical of a change for many. I can empathize slightly with that feeling when I saw the high def remakes of some Monkey Island games. While technically better looking and I had fun playing them, I still prefered the originals. For some reason I don't feel the same way about Duke3D. Maybe its the massive repetition over the years that has me wanting a departure for something new. As evidenced in these forums, there are so many differing opinions on what would make a great new Duke game. Good luck game devs. My personal taste is make a great game regardless of who the main character is ( within reason ) and tailoring it to Duke to put it over the top.

To wrap it up I guess i'm trying to say that even with staying true to the original it's never going to be as magical as the original was to most people. So for game devs its Damned for staying close or Damned for trying something new.

[Tea Monster]

Duke, when it does come back properly, will have to be a modern game, like Doom and the new Wolf titles. We all love the old games, but things have to move on in new games. Like Doom and Wolf, it will have the essence of the old game, but told in a modern manner.

[gemeaux333]

I have no problem with "Douche Nukem", as all the one-liners are somewhat douchey, from Beetlejuice/Betelgeuse to Ash Williams...

[spessu_sb]

axl, on 09 December 2017 - 01:49 AM, said:

I love reading and watching reviews for old games. And especially games that have a very special place in my heart.

However it strikes me that a lot of reviewers nowadays refer to Duke Nukem 3D as a sort of "relic", a game important back in the day, but should have been left there in the past. You never see the same criticism for other contemporary classic FPS like Wolfenstein 3D, Doom or Quake. In these list of "best FPS games of all time", Doom and Quake are always listed. And this is off course justified as they are timeless classics. But Duke Nukem 3D is often forgotten or left out.

The I read this article and found it very interesting:

https://www.polygon....em-forever-hope

Duke Nukem 3D is indeed often wrongfully remembered for the "game where you could give money to strippers... ". What some people forget is the unmatched and fast gameplay, arguably the best level design in a FPS besides John Romero's work, the excellent and balanced weapon arsenal and the brilliant music.

When I started developing my responce idea for your quote, I was gonna repeat exactly that specific part. "Duke is sexism, erotica women.." Apparently because Duke had that and Wolf etc didn't, Duke is mostly remembered like that by lesser Duke fans. I can sorta see it. Humorous macho man with a fun personality and unique look, tits money and guns and the sex focused gameworld advertisements. Maybe if you play wolf, doom, duke and quake you do maybe remember duke most with the elements where it is entirely unique, which is that adult nudity aspect.

The thing is though, that people who actually played the game more than last time 20 years ago, know the difference. Difference is that Duke is a more full classic fps experience than wolf, doom or quake and I can try to summarize about why is that? Wolf3D is the ultimate pioneer so it is what it is: it's completely flat and literally just a maze to really plainly describe in a nutshell. Doom obviously still more primitive because it was the second important game for FPS: not so flat anymore but rooms very much are empty and "meaningless", plus there isn't that much weapon variety. Quake: while being hugely innovative from a tech standpoint (first smoothly running 3D FPS game) it did not offer as big and varied levels as what Duke Nukem 3D did. So the conclusion is that DN3D offers all of the above (except true 3D) and it comes on top of that with the additional sweets like real life locations and settings such as supermarkets or hamburger shops. Bigger weapon variety, also more puzzles and stuff to explore in the maps since they are at times very vertical designed aswell and then the final and that very controversial thing.. tits. Nudity and the taboo aspect.

[axl]

spessu_sb, on 11 December 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

The thing is though, that people who actually played the game more than last time 20 years ago, know the difference. Difference is that Duke is a more full classic fps experience than wolf, doom or quake and I can try to summarize about why is that? Wolf3D is the ultimate pioneer so it is what it is: it's completely flat and literally just a maze to really plainly describe in a nutshell. Doom obviously still more primitive because it was the second important game for FPS: not so flat anymore but rooms very much are empty and "meaningless", plus there isn't that much weapon variety. Quake: while being hugely innovative from a tech standpoint (first smoothly running 3D FPS game) it did not offer as big and varied levels as what Duke Nukem 3D did. So the conclusion is that DN3D offers all of the above (except true 3D) and it comes on top of that with the additional sweets like real life locations and settings such as supermarkets or hamburger shops. Bigger weapon variety, also more puzzles and stuff to explore in the maps since they are at times very vertical designed aswell and then the final and that very controversial thing.. tits. Nudity and the taboo aspect.

I agree with your Wolfenstein 3D point of view: it was hugely important back in the day. But hasn't aged that very well, mainly due to the limited, maze-like level design. I loved it back in the day, and I often still start it up, but I lose interest very quickly.

Doom on the other hand... is hard to criticize. It's like THE blueprint of every single FPS title. Doom's level design, atmosphere, weapon balancy and gameplay is, quite frankly, almost unmatched. I still prefer Duke Nukem 3D, but from an objective point of view, I'd probably pick Doom as "the better game".

As for Quake... I have the same feeling. It's a great game, no doubt about that, but I remember playing it after Duke Nukem 3D around 1997 and thinking: "what's the big deal here?" It had the same story as Doom, a very basic and non-innovative weapon roster and the same "abstract" level design as Doom. Back in the day, it really felt, for me, like a step back. The game grew on me over time, but if I had to choose, Duke Nukem 3D would win easily.

So yeah, if we look at it right now, one could say that the nudity (although it was only featured in a couple of levels) made the game more notorious and probably helped sales, but is sadly also probably the thing what the game is mostly remembered for by the mainstream game audience.

[MusicallyInspired]

I never got into the Quake phase at all. I play Quake 2 later and enjoyed that, but it was still nothing as special as Duke Nukem 3D.

[Zaxx]

I hold Quake 1 in high regard because of one simple thing: speeeeed. While it is true that Quake shares a LOT of design elements with Doom the one thing that really separates it from id's previous game is just how important speed is to its gameplay. Sure, you can play Doom fast too but you really don't need to, in Quake on the other hand you're up against very agile enemies with fast projectiles and quick charge attacks. You have to dodge all the damn time, aim very quickly and there is a slight change in how the weapons work since even more of them are projectile based. And of course Quake had the bug that made strafe jumping possible so the sky is the limit to how fast you can go. It's a great game, what holds it back these days is only the fact that those early 3D graphics did not age well at all though personally I always thought Quake 2 aged even worse somehow.

Apart from being great and "shiny new" 3D Quake basically created the gold standard of skill based arena shooters through its multiplayer. It's one of the forefathers of esports, we can safely say it created esports in the west. Of course Quake 3 took the cake when it comes to multiplayer but it's really just a more refined version of the first game and the pure skill approach to FPS is something you really can't do anything but admire. Thanks to that pure skill approach basically if you suck at Quake you suck at FPS because it's just the perfect game to measure how good you are at raw FPS mechanics. No other game can do that, not even CS or my favourite multiplayer shooter, Unreal Tournament. The downside of this is that it's simply super fucking hard to learn, it's like it's designed to feast on your shortcomings but the fun just never stops.

I always liked Duke more but hell, Quake is just more important when it comes to FPS.

Edit: Anyway the age old debate of Duke or Quake being better was always very interesting to me because if you think about it Duke 3D should have no place in that comparison. Compared to Quake Duke 3D seems like an outdated sprite-based FPS from a company that created it because they wanted some of Doom's success. Then we have Quake, the first fully 3D FPS with state of the art graphics and technology behind it, all backed up by a CD audio soundtrack composed by THE Nine Inch Nails. You can only compete with that if you make a game that is nearly perfect in execution and offers something new like interactivity, more realistic level design etc... and damn, 3DR nailed all of that. Basically the fact that there was a debate among FPS fans of which game is better proves what a masterpiece Duke 3D is.

[Mark]

I was the same as most back in the 90's. Started on Wolf3D and it's clones, Doom, Duke3D ( never played 1 or 2 ) then Quake. Even back then I was ohhing and ahhing at 3D models of Quake. That plus terrain that looked like terrain and not like the same square or angled sectors of all the previous games. So I guess that explains why I went with models in my very first Eduke32 map. They have been my preference for a long time over sprites. I tried a quake mapping program but could never get the hang of it and gave up. Many years later I tried Mapster and here I am.

[xMobilemux]

I don't know if he's referring to Duke things in the works at Magfest or at Gearbox.

[NUKEMDAVE]

He edited the post since to say Duke is coming back in various games. More cameos more than likely. If you check the posts on the Duke Nukem Facebook page and Wild Buster Facebook page, the majority of people commenting about these cameo roles aren't happy about it nor excited. A few people are for it, but lots of negative feedback. I'm not so sure giving Duke these cameo roles is doing anything positive. It's going to take something big to turn things around for the franchise.

[spessu_sb]

axl, on 12 December 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

I agree with your Wolfenstein 3D point of view: it was hugely important back in the day. But hasn't aged that very well, mainly due to the limited, maze-like level design. I loved it back in the day, and I often still start it up, but I lose interest very quickly.

Doom on the other hand... is hard to criticize. It's like THE blueprint of every single FPS title. Doom's level design, atmosphere, weapon balancy and gameplay is, quite frankly, almost unmatched. I still prefer Duke Nukem 3D, but from an objective point of view, I'd probably pick Doom as "the better game".

As for Quake... I have the same feeling. It's a great game, no doubt about that, but I remember playing it after Duke Nukem 3D around 1997 and thinking: "what's the big deal here?" It had the same story as Doom, a very basic and non-innovative weapon roster and the same "abstract" level design as Doom. Back in the day, it really felt, for me, like a step back. The game grew on me over time, but if I had to choose, Duke Nukem 3D would win easily.

So yeah, if we look at it right now, one could say that the nudity (although it was only featured in a couple of levels) made the game more notorious and probably helped sales, but is sadly also probably the thing what the game is mostly remembered for by the mainstream game audience.

I have same issue. I have admiration for the Wolf3D concept still to this day but it's gameplay just gets me bored too soon.

Oh I'm by no means disrespecting Doom even one bit, no. I very well know how important of rule it has played in the progression of the FPS but when you do compare that game into Duke3D.. it is more primitive. The rooms are empty in the sense that there hardly is any models/sprites ("meshes") meanwhile Duke3D has basically every room in the game intricately detailed. You got your bookshelves, radiators, ATMs, Adult magazines, toilet paper, TVs, Radios, Computers, Carpets, Paintings on walls.. the rooms feel lively. When you go into one, you will feel the room's "story". That same doesn't happen for Doom but it's due to technical reasons. Mainly that.. when you are a game that pioneered basically everything to which Duke3D and modern fps was built on top of, you can't really expect to invent all at once

Quake was always cool to me. I didn't own it back in the day nor my PC could run it but at my uncle's I could play that game with a joystick and it was so cool to scavenge those water areas. But looking back now in retrospect, I will put Duke3D over Quake and think it is the better game regardless of id Software's importance to the genre.

Mainstream audience was the word I was looking for. It sounds about right that that is how things have happened sadly with the Duke Nukem knowledge.

[spessu_sb]

NUKEMDAVE, on 15 December 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

He edited the post since to say Duke is coming back in various games. More cameos more than likely. If you check the posts on the Duke Nukem Facebook page and Wild Buster Facebook page, the majority of people commenting about these cameo roles aren't happy about it nor excited. A few people are for it, but lots of negative feedback. I'm not so sure giving Duke these cameo roles is doing anything positive. It's going to take something big to turn things around for the franchise.

Here's hoping one of the cameos will be in Quake Champions

Regardless of the game being the kinda state where it currently is (Quake Champions) Duke if somebody still would make the most sense to be featured in it.

[Zaxx]

spessu_sb, on 15 December 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

Here's hoping one of the cameos will be in Quake Champions

Regardless of the game being the kinda state where it currently is (Quake Champions) Duke if somebody still would make the most sense to be featured in it.

Oh yeah, Duke in QC would be super awesome, the active ability options are limitless thanks to his unique arsenal.

Anyway the newest patch improved things a lot, especially when it comes to balance. I think once the new hitboxes come out the game will be fine. The problem with QC is that Bethesda basically lied about the game being in beta: the closed beta was clearly in an alpha state and if you look at some of what Tim Willits says about the game it becomes pretty clear that it got released quite early in development. The game started out as an expansion to Quake Live and Willits said stuff like "Doom 2016 helped a lot in making the game possible" so chances are they started working on it as its own game in 2016.

[xMobilemux]

Oh?

[spessu_sb]

Zaxx, on 15 December 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

Oh yeah, Duke in QC would be super awesome, the active ability options are limitless thanks to his unique arsenal.

Anyway the newest patch improved things a lot, especially when it comes to balance. I think once the new hitboxes come out the game will be fine. The problem with QC is that Bethesda basically lied about the game being in beta: the closed beta was clearly in an alpha state and if you look at some of what Tim Willits says about the game it becomes pretty clear that it got released quite early in development. The game started out as an expansion to Quake Live and Willits said stuff like "Doom 2016 helped a lot in making the game possible" so chances are they started working on it as its own game in 2016.

Got quite a few ideas aswell what ability Duke would have. One idea would be to just give him Duke3D's stereoids. So a temp fullspeed boost and damage increasement and while he takes those roids, he will obviously go "hail to the king baby" and then the speed starts

I've been playing QC basically since the public closed beta started in April and it most definitely isn't even still anywhere near complete to release. It's very broken and lacking all kinds of necessary features left and right. Sadly.

The game has been in development on Saber Tech since atleast from ~2015, because no one makes a Triple A grade game in under 1 year and even 1 year is an extreme stretch. QC first semi publicly shown in an closed audience QCon2016 exclusive showmatch. In that showmatch pros played (showcased) the new Quake to limited audience. This means the game to be that much completed during that time, has been worked on for atleast 1-2years and 2014 sounds quite realistic to me about when the Saber Tech QC development was started.

[Zaxx]

Wow, I never knew that on Duke 3D's Duke Burger map Randy voiced the "Go away, we're like... closed." line. You learn something new every day.

[Sanek]

I was VERY bored.

[spessu_sb]

Out dated? Stereoids are pretty much synonymous when speaking about Duke Nukem. Could almost say that Stereoids are Duke Nukem trademark even.

[Never Forgotten]

TnT, on 19 January 2018 - 04:48 AM, said:

Isn't HGH safer than steroids? IDK, "roids" just seem to be passe, or out-dated, no? What about an adrenaline shot or some kind of inhalant like ammonia smelling salts?

But isn't Duke supposed to be outdated? I mean, he's a relic from the 80's. I think everything about him would be outdated, almost. His vehicle would be something from, at the latest, the early 2000's, his clothes would be styled right out of the 90's, his quotes are 80's esque, etc.

[Never Forgotten]

TnT, on 19 January 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

I don't think painting Duke out to be some kind of "square" is necessary or at all beneficial to the character. Sure, he's nostalgic, but it's not like he's been in prison for 20 years... Although, He may have been in hiding. But forget all that "has been" scenario. Just set the character in modern times or heck, even 10 years or more into the future.

I'm not saying that Duke has been away from society for any length of time, I'm saying that he's someone who misses the 80's and 90's. He's someone who enjoys 80's action movies, and their heroes, he loves his women, and he doesn't like the modern way of living. He isn't a "has been", and he's not out of date, he's just Duke as he was originally intended, someone who is a huge 80's action hero cliche'. And that is what made Duke, Duke. There's not political siding, and he's not trying to make a stance on something, he just wants to save the women, and kick some alien ass.