[necroslut]

 Zaxx, on 15 August 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

Not really, I did my fair share of bitching too when Megaton was removed just like a lot of other people.
Someone will correct my if it's not the case for the majority but I sure as hell can't run World Tour on EDuke32 without using Hendricks' stopgap and even then a lot of mods for EDuke32 won't be compatible (for example if you want to use the voxel pack for World Tour the maphacks won't work so the voxel models will be placed incorrectly).

It's still the first time I hear "Eduke32 compability" used as an argument for it, so I still hold for true that it hasn't done a great dent in the World Tour sales on its own.
The four 3D Realms episodes can be run no problem, without using the stopgap patch. The stopgap patch isn't even intended for that - it's intended to bring the Alien World Order and other new content such as dev commentaries into ED32. The duke3d.grp gamedata file is mostly identical to what you'd get with Megaton, GOG or an old Atomic CD-ROM.

 Zaxx, on 15 August 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

As for the controller thing (but for the last time because I feel we've really exhausted the topic): I'm not defending controllers, I merely tried to correct certain misconceptions people have when it comes to controller aiming / console shooters. It's important to understand why they suck but I don't agree with the notion of "it sucks and it's hard to nail it so FPS should not be on consoles" not only because decades of FPS point in a whole different direction but because stuff like this evolves. Controllers and consoles have come a long way since the days of Goldeneye and they still have quite a climb to accomplish but they will get there, stuff will evolve and become standards and at the end we'll get rid of the so called "console shooter" game design. Just think about how long it took for PC FPS to get from keyboard controls to proper mouse aiming: around 10 years.

And the thing about the multiplatform philosophy: it won't go away, the days of different gaming systems with unique libraries of video games are over. Developing games got too expensive.

Here's the thing though - they (controllers) won't "get there". They can't, ever, because the whole concept of the modern dual analog controller is a compromise. And with a compromise, there's always tradeoffs. And some of the tradeoffs results in them not being properly equipped to control first person shooters. It'd take a whole other kind of controller do do that properly.
I don't wanna create the impression that I hate consoles, or controllers, or even first person shooters on consoles - because I don't. I've spent my fair time on Halo's split screen deathmatch and other console shooters, the experimental first person shooters on the Wii, primitive Wolfenstein clones on Mega Drive, and so on... and they're fine for what they are. But they absolutely shouldn't be allowed to dictate how shooters in general should play, and that's what happens when there's some doctrine saying all shooters should be playable with the same controller. It holds them back, and it holds them back far, to the point where the whole genre is pretty much creatively worthless these days in my eyes. It's not all on the controllers, but it is a huge contributing factor in stifling creativity as well as quality in first person shooters.

Well, I do hope it will go away in some form, or first person shooters are done for, basically. Though, in a sense, different gaming systems are already over. The two big consoles these days are pretty much branded, standardized PC's and don't really have much of anything motivating their existence at all. Without the Xbox (in particular) this whole dilemma wouldn't exist.

I still hold that a proper followup to Duke 3D cannot be made as long as it makes concessions to controllers, with all that comes with that. Maybe it can get console ports that have various changes made to them. Maybe the console ports can have lower difficulties. It doesn't have to be "exclusive exclusive". But what needs to die is the idea - and Microsoft is a big culprit in enforcing this idea, somewhat ironically - that all versions need to be the same. What it does is holding everyone back. If that's what it's come to, maybe we can just take games out the back and put it out of it's misery, because that's not really a gaming worth having IMO.

Edit: It's not really about consoles, really. It's about the Xbox. And Microsoft's insistence that all games be made for - not just support but made for - the XBox controller. Sony allowed mouse and keyboards on the PS3, even advertised it, it's Microsoft that's the culprit. They did a lot of harm to gaming over the last, decade-long generation, by their various harmful policies attempting to standardize games in a way that fit them. Blame should be where it's due, and the multiplatform doctrine was created by Microsoft. Who, you would think, should have been the defenders of the Windows gaming platform. Instead, they seem more or less intent on killing it in favor of the artificial ecosystem that is the Xbox.

[Mr. Tibbs]

IGN posted a really long video interview with Randy Pitchford. 3DR and D3D talk begins at 26:00 minute mark.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Accidental double post, sorry. I couldn't edit my previous post.

There's DNF discussion at the 1 hour 25 minute mark of the video above.

[Steve 64]

I can't remember if this was in the other video so I post it

[hismasterplan]

Duke invented the wheel once, but doesn't necessarily have to do it each time. If Randy thinks any harder, we'll end up with another 12 year development cycle.

[necroslut]

 hismasterplan, on 13 September 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Duke invented the wheel once, but doesn't necessarily have to do it each time. If Randy thinks any harder, we'll end up with another 12 year development cycle.

Eh, I don't agree. I looked forward to a new Duke game for the same reason as looking forward for Half-Life 3 - evolution of the FPS.

The thing is though, like with Half-Life but maybe even more so with Duke, that the potential for that is there. You just have to figure out how to pull it off and take it to the next level.

[stumppy84]

 hismasterplan, on 13 September 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Duke invented the wheel once, but doesn't necessarily have to do it each time. If Randy thinks any harder, we'll end up with another 12 year development cycle.

I agree with this, but it does seem like he and possibly another dev have a few pretty good ideas.. maybe not, but that is what it seems to me. I do think that Randy is a man of action, and if you look at the number of games released by Gearbox in the last 20 years it's pretty admirable. They also acquired a Quebec studio so they have the man power. I do however think a new duke game is at least 3 years away, but what do I know!

[hismasterplan]

I do admire and respect the desire for a groundbreaking product. I mean I want Duke 5 to be great too and yeah, it can't be rushed out the door... It's just Innovation for the sake innovation can clutter thoughts and stunt creativity. The best way to start a new Duke is to simplify these thoughts, take everything rooted in DN3D, maybe aspects of the games before too and use that as a starting point. Then add more, and maybe even something new and world-shaking. Maybe that is what Randy is already doing but from the interviews, he sounds lost. I'm paraphrasing but I keep hearing Randy say things like "I hope there's a new Duke one day." When I hear hope, alarm bells go off. By "hope" I hear "might not" be a Duke game.

[Steve 64]

Part 2




Talks about duke at start of the video

[Steve 64]

Oops

[Steve 64]

 Duke Legacy, on 14 September 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

Part 2




Talks about duke at start of the video

Randy I know who your talking about Jim Serling

OMG I DID IT AGAIN Sorry guys didn't mean it

[petrus]

>Gearbox: Next Duke Nukem Needs a New Design Paradigm

I disagree with this, that's exactly why they screwed up DNF.
We don't want a paradigm shift, we just want a good FPS, not new coke.

You don't have to reinvent the wheel to make that happen, it's not rocket science, fps games.
Do a Doom 2016 style re-imagination of Duke, add destructible environments, and boom, done.

Just properly remaking Hollywood Holocaust to get it rolling would be a winning formula.

The amount of interactivity in that one single level is unmatched even in most modern fps games.

[MusicallyInspired]

"We just want a good FPS"

Yeah, that's totally easy to do.

[necroslut]

 petrus, on 14 September 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

>Gearbox: Next Duke Nukem Needs a New Design Paradigm

I disagree with this, that's exactly why they screwed up DNF.
We don't want a paradigm shift, we just want a good FPS, not new coke.

You don't have to reinvent the wheel to make that happen, it's not rocket science, fps games.
Do a Doom 2016 style re-imagination of Duke, add destructible environments, and boom, done.

Just properly remaking Hollywood Holocaust to get it rolling would be a winning formula.

The amount of interactivity in that one single level is unmatched even in most modern fps games.

But what would even "a Doom 2016 style re-imagination of Duke" mean? Doom is a pretty simple game - to redo Doom is thus relatively simple as long as it's good - Duke is a much more complex beast.

[Hank]

since Randy quoted Einstein without giving him credit, in one of those videos I saw, let me quote him (my hero Einstein) as well:

“The definition of genius is taking the complex and making it simple.”

In other words, it may take a real genius to cut through the movies, third party games mentality and short term profit notions of Gearbox, to make Gearbox see the huge potential Duke actually has.

I gave up all hope for a real cool Duke Nukem 5 (or what ever the title would be), after the 'World Tour', for this to happen.
My apologies to this community to be such a downer

[PsychoGoatee]

I loved the new levels in World Tour, but the release could use some bug fixes and options etc. I do think Randy may be overthinking this, or kind of making excuses for why they don't dive into making a Duke game (after six years since DNF hit). They can make a new Duke game that does really innovate or clicks in the way he's describing some day, they own the IP forever unless they sell it.

But in the meantime, if they did make a solid Duke game with modern production values, to go with the Doom 2016 comparison we like, if done well and with the right tone (less silly) this would increase Duke's brand and goodwill among FPS fans. So it would be a win/win, he could do both of these ideas in the next ten years, make both potential games. Sure beats sitting on the license and not making any games.

[NNC]

What should be in the new Duke game:

1. Nonlinear levels with lots of secrets
2. No 2 weapon limit
3. No ego regen BS
4. Charismatic, memorable enemies like the pigcop and octabrain from D3D
5. Allen Blum as the main level designer

[spessu_sb]

 PsychoGoatee, on 15 September 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

I loved the new levels in World Tour, but the release could use some bug fixes and options etc. I do think Randy may be overthinking this, or kind of making excuses for why they don't dive into making a Duke game (after six years since DNF hit). They can make a new Duke game that does really innovate or clicks in the way he's describing some day, they own the IP forever unless they sell it.

But in the meantime, if they did make a solid Duke game with modern production values, to go with the Doom 2016 comparison we like, if done well and with the right tone (less silly) this would increase Duke's brand and goodwill among FPS fans. So it would be a win/win, he could do both of these ideas in the next ten years, make both potential games. Sure beats sitting on the license and not making any games.

I agree that now's the time and chance to make a game where Doom 4 didn't make up for/deliver-in (level design and enemy placement) and that ofc means it's time to repeat history since Duke perfected the Doom formula already once before..

 Nancsi, on 15 September 2017 - 10:52 PM, said:

What should be in the new Duke game:

1. Nonlinear levels with lots of secrets
2. No 2 weapon limit
3. No ego regen BS
4. Charismatic, memorable enemies like the pigcop and octabrain from D3D
5. Allen Blum as the main level designer

I agree with pretty much everything except not sure about the classic enemies. Some have been talking about the "stuck in the past" aspect and I hear them. I don't want Duke to be necessarily limited to the same pigcops everytime but possibly innovate and bring some new form of enemies into the mix. They can still be alien lifeform but just doesn't need to be same ones we've fought for how manieth time already?

[Never Forgotten]

 spessu_sb, on 16 September 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

I agree with pretty much everything except not sure about the classic enemies. Some have been talking about the "stuck in the past" aspect and I hear them. I don't want Duke to be necessarily limited to the same pigcops everytime but possibly innovate and bring some new form of enemies into the mix. They can still be alien lifeform but just doesn't need to be same ones we've fought for how manieth time already?

Technically the alien roster from Duke 3D has only been in the games twice, Duke 3D and DNF. The Pig Cops, however, have been in every Duke game since Duke 3D. I like the idea of bringing in some new aliens for Duke to fight. Look at the first three games: Dr. Proton and his army of techbots, Rigelatins, and then the alien invaders from Duke 3D. None of those were the same, unless you count the protozoid slimers, as they share similarities with the wall crawlers and slimes from DN1 and DN2. It would be interesting to see some newer, but still 90's esque, aliens. Maybe bring back the Pig Cop, since it's become such a staple of the Duke Nukem franchise. If they were to bring back other aliens, I would love to see the return of the Rigelatins, or the Protector Drones, I was upset with DNF for not having them in it. Octabrains would be welcome to return.

[NNC]

It should use a healthy mix of new and old, meaning pigcops and octis can return, but with new enemies enter the scene too.

But the most important is charm. They should be memorable and interesting to look at. DNF enemies were just generic shit.

[OpenMaw]

 Never Forgotten, on 16 September 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Technically the alien roster from Duke 3D has only been in the games twice, Duke 3D and DNF. The Pig Cops, however, have been in every Duke game since Duke 3D. I like the idea of bringing in some new aliens for Duke to fight. Look at the first three games: Dr. Proton and his army of techbots, Rigelatins, and then the alien invaders from Duke 3D. None of those were the same, unless you count the protozoid slimers, as they share similarities with the wall crawlers and slimes from DN1 and DN2. It would be interesting to see some newer, but still 90's esque, aliens. Maybe bring back the Pig Cop, since it's become such a staple of the Duke Nukem franchise. If they were to bring back other aliens, I would love to see the return of the Rigelatins, or the Protector Drones, I was upset with DNF for not having them in it. Octabrains would be welcome to return.

Zero Hour is supposed to have basically "the same" aliens in it, even though some of the designs are a little different.

Zero himself is basically a cybernetic cycloid emperor with wings.

[Never Forgotten]

I have a question, with the Xbox One X coming out, are we going to see DNF get the backwards compatibility with the Xbox One? I'd love to see what the game could look like if they updated the graphics for the Xbox One X... It might not be a better game, but at least it could look better.

[Never Forgotten]

 SOAR, on 07 November 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

More focus on how the players decisions and actions throughout the campaign will alter the story and outcome. Making replay value much greater. Non linear gameplay with Huge maps and lots of areas to explore in search for "keys". Many secret areas. Heavy interaction with the environment necessary for player progression within a level (scene), including more destructible elements within the environments.

No need to reinvent it. Simply elaborate on what made Duke work so well in the first place.

Also:
Would it also be so bad if Duke was again in 3rd person?
Had the ability to roll and dodge?
Grab onto ledges, etc?

How about more Duke on his motorcycle, battling it out on the street or highway against baddies?

Why not mix it up by having some scenes (levels) actually be linear and some not?

Oh hey, haven't seen you on the forums in a while. While I wouldn't mind Duke in 3rd person, I think they should stick to what made Duke... well, Duke. But, I wouldn't be apposed to another spin off after they make the next game, it might be quite fun.

[necroslut]

 SOAR, on 07 November 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

More focus on how the players decisions and actions throughout the campaign will alter the story and outcome. Making replay value much greater. Non linear gameplay with Huge maps and lots of areas to explore in search for "keys". Many secret areas. Heavy interaction with the environment necessary for player progression within a level (scene), including more destructible elements within the environments.

No need to reinvent it. Simply elaborate on what made Duke work so well in the first place.

I don't think having more focus on story is the way to go. If you want more replayability - focus on making the actual gameplay fun (and leaving room for varying your playstyle) rather than coax the player back with unlockables etc.

Quote

Also:
Would it also be so bad if Duke was again in 3rd person?

I wouldn't mind it being a toggle, like in Duke 3D, but I really prefer first person view in shooters like this. Exploration and interactivity isn't as interesting in third person as you don't get as close and intimate with the environment. And there's a reason 3rd person shooters are/were mostly on consoles.

Quote

Had the ability to roll and dodge?

As long as movement is quick enough (and jumps high/crouches low enough) to dodge projectiles and attacks to old-fashioned way I don't think a dodge move is necessary at all.

Quote

Grab onto ledges, etc?

This could be a good addition on the other hand, fitting with Duke's "spirit" and giving a larger freedom of movement. The DukePlus mod already did this years ago, and plenty of more recent first-person shooters (such as Doom 4) have done it.

Quote

How about more Duke on his motorcycle, battling it out on the street or highway against baddies?

Why not mix it up by having some scenes (levels) actually be linear and some not?

I'm all for mixing things up, just as long as you don't have too sharp differences throwing players off. Having a varying degree of linear-/openness and pace is good - Duke 3D already did this. But there's no reason to have completely ultralinear levels, and I don't think they would be received well if the players have already gotten to expect a more free style. Vehicles are fine, though I personally prefer how they were implemented in Shadow Warrior ('97) rather than having entire vehicle stages (like in DNF).

[Never Forgotten]

 necroslut, on 08 November 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

I'm all for mixing things up, just as long as you don't have too sharp differences throwing players off. Having a varying degree of linear-/openness and pace is good - Duke 3D already did this. But there's no reason to have completely ultralinear levels, and I don't think they would be received well if the players have already gotten to expect a more free style. Vehicles are fine, though I personally prefer how they were implemented in Shadow Warrior ('97) rather than having entire vehicle stages (like in DNF).

I've only played the Shareware for Shadow Warrior, but I did get to control a tank, so I wouldn't mind vehicles like that. If they make them optional, it's perfect. I wouldn't mind being able to ride Duke's motorcycle to get through a group of enemies quicker, or even get in the driver's seat of a Riot Tank to plow through some tougher enemies... maybe you could even kill the pilot of a Recon Patrol Vehicle and take over it. As long as it isn't the entire focus.

[Forge]

10 hours of cut scenes with 4 hours of actual gameplay sucks. The first three games had good stories that didn't interfere with the game. Come up with something better. And use the spoiler tag.

[Sanek]

 TnT, on 23 November 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

Sure, original design is important and it is what made Duke 3D great but we can't keep rehashing the same dog gone premise again and again.

I actually think that it's time for the original design to come back. There's so much linear shooters these days that the one that will have unlinear levels will look more original than the rest.

[BoowHow]

 TnT, on 24 November 2017 - 01:56 AM, said:

How did I spoil anything?

What Forge probably meant, was that you didn't put your wall of text inside a

Spoiler

Spoiler

[Forge]

No. BoowHow was right. Use spoiler tags for huge walls of fan-fict text that take up 1/4 of the page.
It's the polite thing to do.

[Forge]

Well going the extreme other direction from huge walls of text isn't good either.
I'd rather have some of my ideas "stolen" and end up with a game I would want to play, than to be ignored and end up with a crappy game that I don't want at all and have the i.p. I enjoy ruined.