[Shaq Fu]

I finally cracked the code -- hope I opened everyone's eyes.



I love Randy.

[Tea Monster]

HiPolyBash, on 05 September 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

They did it for Total Meltdown on the PlayStation.

It depends on how much work is required and what format they were saved in. If they were saved in original res, it would take ages and probably not be cost-effective to remake them all in higher res. Plus, people would have a bitch-fit if they weren't 100% pixel-for-pixel accurate.

If they were saved in 2x format and just shot down when exported from photoshop, then it's insane that they didn't do this.

I'm not a pixel-art guy, and I don't have a magic-mirror to look into 3DR's archive, but I'm thinking it was done at 1:1 res.

As to the models, as a 3D guy, I'm thinking that it was very probable that the models have the animations for the poses stored within the file. In that case, it would be easy to re-export the original renders. Again, it would require adding blood and maybe fixing shading effects/tweaking. A lot of work, but not quite as much work as redoing all the sprites.

IMHO, it's the monsters that look really low-res. The sprites are a mixed bag, with some really nice photo-sourced stuff and some not-so clear art, but the monsters could really do with a res upgrade.

[MetHy]

TerminX, on 06 September 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

It was cheaper in the long run for them to do their own port, so they did. That's kinda what business is about though. I wish they had continued the tradition of using our code and paying us royalties, but they didn't. However, it's not like they maliciously said "ha ha ha, let's take TerminX's money!"

They're actually helping me out quite a bit. It's really hard for me to say "yeah, these guys are just dicks who want all the money!" when they're making sure I'm not starving or getting my utilities shut off, even after fighting with Randy for an hour on Twitter and essentially doing even more permanent damage to the guy's reputation as a result.

So, I like Gearbox right now. I'm really happy that they're more interested in supporting the existing Duke3D community than just acting like we don't exist and doing their own thing entirely. They're genuinely doing a nice thing for me that they have literally no obligation to do, especially after the public butting of heads, and it's impossible for me to feel anything but grateful for that.

I'm not sure how to say this without sounding insulting, not because I want to sound insulting, I just don't know how you'd react. Pretty sure the thread is hidden or deleted now, but you said yourself that they used EDuke32 code and Mapster32 in several ways for development. Even if you're blowing that part out of proportion (again, not saying you did and I don't know, but I tend to never take anything for granted when I only hear one point of view, even when it's my friends talking), don't you think you deserve more than peanuts?
I know that ripping off a product, or "recreating it differently enough", is a common business practice, but that doesn't make it right or fair.
Judging from the sitcom with many unforeseen development you've been telling on this forum, Gearbox rips off your stuff, lets you watch and even ask you to help them ripping you off, and then throw peanuts at you as a "Thank you, this should keep you happy and give us a good opinion on us", probably in case they need more of your stuff in the feature. Holy shit, if I were you I'd say "Fuck Gearbox, fuck Duke Nukem 3D, that game is lost now" and I'd concentrate on projects for which you are more fairly paid, like Bombshell prequel or something.

As for "being cheaper in the long term", that's granted it sells well enough, which means a greater risk factor before the reward. They must have taken that into account, and I'm no expert, but that doesn't make their decision necessarly the best one on a business point of view because of that.
Also, asking the people who know DN3D the best to work on this port, would have probably ended up making a better product, and they know it, and willingly decided to make something that was just "good enough" instead to warrant enough people buying it again. So they willingly decided not to make the best possible port. Again, common business practice, money, risk to reward, etc etc but still doesn't make it right or fair, especially for Duke fans, who've been fucked a lot with already, and I think it tells a lot about their philosophy towards Duke, which may or may not be the same philosophy for all their products.

[Micky C]

No, TX explicitly stated that they didn't use any eduke32 code. At least I remember reading that he looked at the code of their renderer to make sure it didn't rip anything from polymer, which it didn't.

Sure they're using mapster32 for the maps, but that doesn't mean they owe TX anything for it. You don't give Microsoft a percentage of any books you sell just because you wrote the book in Word.

[MetHy]

Of course they're not going to have any EDuke32 code in it. That's the whole point of remaking it. I vividly remember TX saying they even had Polymer lights as a placeholder during development, if that isn't an example good enough showcasing they're basically remaking the same thing, I don't know what is. Pretty sure earlier ITT he said that, last he checked, the lights they use would work if you used the map files in EDuke32, or something like that.
And their port, it looks just like Polymer and its lights. It's the same business practice as what Apple does, steal the ideas and the "how to" and make it "differently enough" to claim it their own. Except here, Gearbox even has the guts to ask help from the person they're stealing from and throw peanuts at him.

I get what you mean with Mapster32, but it surely made them save a lot of time and money using it. As an example, I remember TX saying he helped the level designer by telling them about a Mapster32 trick which wasn't possible in Build and made them save a lot of time. I know that "technically speaking" that doesn't make them "owe" anything on a business point of view, again that's the whole point of their practice, my point is peanuts don't sound like a fair trade all things considered.
Gearbox even lies about M32, claiming they build the new episode "with the old tools", or at best with "mostly the old tools", not admitting they use it like they know it's something that can reproached on them.

I know all this is just how business is, just pointing out that business is not fair (captain obvious), and that in my point of view, I don't understand how he can sound content of the situation. Although, that too, may just be business, just saying that hopefully he doesn't have to put up with this kind of shit and that I hope he can find contracts where his skills and work are more fairly rewarded.

[Micky C]

Because it's not Gearbox's fault that TX didn't have the rights to HTTK. TX was, for a lack of better word, harassing Randy on twitter, and after all they went through, Gearbox was still happy to work with him.

Don't forget, TX was pretty close to being homeless a few months ago. You can't undervalue the power of giving a man a warm home for his family.

[Mr. Tibbs]

TerminX, on 06 September 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

It was cheaper in the long run for them to do their own port, so they did. That's kinda what business is about though. I wish they had continued the tradition of using our code and paying us royalties, but they didn't. However, it's not like they maliciously said "ha ha ha, let's take TerminX's money!"

They're actually helping me out quite a bit. It's really hard for me to say "yeah, these guys are just dicks who want all the money!" when they're making sure I'm not starving or getting my utilities shut off, even after fighting with Randy for an hour on Twitter and essentially doing even more permanent damage to the guy's reputation as a result.

So, I like Gearbox right now. I'm really happy that they're more interested in supporting the existing Duke3D community than just acting like we don't exist and doing their own thing entirely. They're genuinely doing a nice thing for me that they have literally no obligation to do, especially after the public butting of heads, and it's impossible for me to feel anything but grateful for that.

As a guy who has done so much to keep Duke alive, as long as they're treating you well, then that's all that really matters. I hope the release works out well for all involved: devs, fans, the series.

[MetHy]

Micky C, on 07 September 2016 - 12:54 AM, said:

Don't forget, TX was pretty close to being homeless a few months ago. You can't undervalue the power of giving a man a warm home for his family.

That only makes it sound even worse. Abusing the situation because they knew he'd have no choice but take the peanuts.
I'm not even talking about HTTK btw.

[deuxsonic]

I think Randy needs to be taught humility.

Master Leep say: Rabbit is Gentle, Rabbit is Humble, Follow the Rabbit.

[neoacix]

For my as a consumer, my dream of playing Duke3D is with a good renderer as PolymerNG should become, full mod support, custom levels and a good working multiplayer.
I don't need a port for consoles, Android or iOS, (maybe Linux), that would be just nice to have, but not a must.

Now there is:
- Eduke32 without multiplayer and the renderers have a lot of flaws, the rest is fine
- DukeNukem World Tour, commercial, supposedly no mod support, a renderer which is basicly like polymer, but working multiplayer

So, one half there and one half there.

I know busyness is not an easy thing and Gearbox could'nt just take Eduke32 and fill the holes, but damn, I just wish Eduke32 will see the day when it's just THE Duke3D without questions and my dream come true.
Sadly, I think this will take forever.

But I'll dream on and maybe some day, maybe Gearbox will reveal the source code of their port, or something magical will happen.
Today and the next time, for me as a consumer, Duke3D is not finished yet. And World Tour is just salt in the wound, because it shows, it's possible to fill some gaps in decent time, but it also let you down in not beeing THE Duke3D you want.
So with Dukes own words: "Damn, this realy pisses me off!"

[Tea Monster]

It's great we are getting a new episode and multiplayer.

It's all up in the air to modding. Even if they don't change the file system at all, will the new renderer work with models?

What I really want is a completely new Duke game.

[Player Lin]

MP or not, like rewind function(which I really like to try that in PC), they're bonus for me. Yeah, working(and maybe better?) MP always good idea/thing for Duke3D but it just not in my first one.

The one put me off just about the modding/backward compatibility one, yeah, we have Megaton & eduke32 for old mods/TCs and I know & understand their reasons to do that but I just can't accept it. And whoever know Duke3D from Gearbox's port and want to try those old mods/TCs just f***ed because the port's data isn't compatible with 3DR's one and there is NO way to get it(maybe from auction sites but I think it just like try to buy a unboxed copy of Duke3D v1.3d).

I don't know if there's still a possible/legal way to made a IPS or something diff-like of patch for patch their World Tour port's main data to 3DR one to solve this f***ed up.

I feel it just like the other fork of Duke port community, and this is official one, it sure still caused some degrees of influences to Duke community.

And even Randy said they may sell Megaton again but like their new Duke game, unless it happens or I don't give a shit.

[TheZombieKiller]

Player Lin, on 07 September 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

because the port's data isn't compatible with 3DR's one and there is NO way to get it

I'm fairly certain it was mentioned that the Atomic GRP is freely available from Archive.org
Gearbox have stated that Megaton will be coming back, so we'll just have to wait and see I guess

[cybdmn]

neoacix, on 07 September 2016 - 03:05 AM, said:

But I'll dream on and maybe some day, maybe Gearbox will reveal the source code of their port,

I would say: NGH.

I can imagine that one reason of not using eDuke32 as a base was to make this port closed source, as this make sure, that you can't just grab the .grp (if it still uses that format) from your buddy, or from any warez-site, and play the new content.

I wouldn't even be surprised if GBX make use of Denuvo to make it harder, if not impossible to reverse engineering that port to collect information of how the new stuff works.

[Tea Monster]

I'd like to say that that they will stick with a standard GRP format, but nobody knows.

[MetHy]

Pretty sure it was confirmed already that they altered the GRP, though I doubt it's for anti piracy reasons probably more because they see no reason to go through the trouble not to, but I can't check since the thread is no longer visible.

[cybdmn]

Altering the .grp does not mean much. It could be, they just added the new textures and stuff to the duke3d.grp.

[TerminX]

Sorry guys, I just can't go along with the "fuck Gearbox" mentality right now. They didn't put me in the situation I'm in. I know that a lot of people would like for them to be the bad guy here, but they just aren't. Thanks to Gearbox my bills are paid up again for the first time in months (the last time I was able to pay them all was when people donated to help me out), I was able to buy my wife a decent birthday present, and I was able to actually buy something for myself recently, which is amazing considering the last time I could afford something frivolous and unnecessary was a $35 Raspberry Pi. They are paying me more than my share of royalties on Megaton Edition was worth this long after release.

That is why I am content at the moment--Gearbox found something for me to do and they're making sure I'm not totally fucked. Do you know how awesome it is to be able to forego food stamps for the first time in years, or to be able to get my kid nice clothes for school, or buy him new books to read? It's amazing not having to worry about that shit. I've been disabled for damn near 25 years and have never been able to hold down a "real" job.

[PsychoGoatee]

Happy to hear you're in a positive place Term , as for Gearbox they're cool by me as a fan, I look forward to future Duke stuff.

[Forge]

TerminX, on 07 September 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

That is why I am content at the moment--Gearbox found something for me to do and they're making sure I'm not totally fucked.

again, i'm happy things are going your way atm.
just don't get too dependent on that hand that's feeding you. start putting away rainy-day money.

[Shaq Fu]

cybdmn, on 07 September 2016 - 05:09 AM, said:

I can imagine that one reason of not using eDuke32 as a base was to make this port closed source, as this make sure, that you can't just grab the .grp (if it still uses that format) from your buddy, or from any warez-site, and play the new content.

I wouldn't even be surprised if GBX make use of Denuvo to make it harder, if not impossible to reverse engineering that port to collect information of how the new stuff works.

Based Randy Pitchford protecting his team's hard work from thieving opportunists.

TerminX, on 07 September 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

Sorry guys, I just can't go along with the "fuck Gearbox" mentality right now. They didn't put me in the situation I'm in. I know that a lot of people would like for them to be the bad guy here, but they just aren't. Thanks to Gearbox my bills are paid up again for the first time in months (the last time I was able to pay them all was when people donated to help me out), I was able to buy my wife a decent birthday present, and I was able to actually buy something for myself recently, which is amazing considering the last time I could afford something frivolous and unnecessary was a $35 Raspberry Pi. They are paying me more than my share of royalties on Megaton Edition was worth this long after release.

That is why I am content at the moment--Gearbox found something for me to do and they're making sure I'm not totally fucked. Do you know how awesome it is to be able to forego food stamps for the first time in years, or to be able to get my kid nice clothes for school, or buy him new books to read? It's amazing not having to worry about that shit. I've been disabled for damn near 25 years and have never been able to hold down a "real" job.

Jokes aside, this is actually legitimately incredible.

[TheZombieKiller]

TerminX, on 07 September 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

Sorry guys, I just can't go along with the "fuck Gearbox" mentality right now. They didn't put me in the situation I'm in. I know that a lot of people would like for them to be the bad guy here, but they just aren't. Thanks to Gearbox my bills are paid up again for the first time in months (the last time I was able to pay them all was when people donated to help me out), I was able to buy my wife a decent birthday present, and I was able to actually buy something for myself recently, which is amazing considering the last time I could afford something frivolous and unnecessary was a $35 Raspberry Pi. They are paying me more than my share of royalties on Megaton Edition was worth this long after release.

That is why I am content at the moment--Gearbox found something for me to do and they're making sure I'm not totally fucked. Do you know how awesome it is to be able to forego food stamps for the first time in years, or to be able to get my kid nice clothes for school, or buy him new books to read? It's amazing not having to worry about that shit. I've been disabled for damn near 25 years and have never been able to hold down a "real" job.

...goddamn. If anything that's given me a lot more respect for the company.

[neoacix]

I never had anything against Gearbox and nice to know things did well for you TerminX/Void Point.
One thing for sure, this whole World Tour thing brought me once again back to Duke.
And damn, yeah, I still love this game!

[HulkNukem]

I hope the Bombshell prequel is the first of many successful commercial Build engine games so you can get paid TX
And so we can also all play a new Build game

[Mr. Tibbs]

Nice Duke 3D retrospective over at Game Informer:

Quote

Duke 3D arrived on the scene in January 1996, a couple of years after Doom’s debut. To say that Duke 3D advanced what id had done with its shooter would be an understatement. Developer 3D Realms created an incredibly sophisticated game, which is easily lost amid the clutter of pop-culture references and pixelated strippers. It was a showcase for the Build engine, which was later used in Shadow Warrior and Blood. What set the engine apart from other games at the time is how it allowed level designers to create rooms with variable heights and rooms that were stacked above other rooms. It wasn’t truly 3D, but compared to other games from that time period, the varied geometry was revelatory.

Quote

Thanks to some other technical trickery, Duke 3D included functional mirrors – something that’s still a rarity in gaming. It’s an incredibly small detail, but considering how frequently contemporary games have bathrooms with shattered or fogged-up mirrors to work around reflections, it still feels like a big leap. The game’s gore wasn’t anything particularly new – Doom and Mortal Kombat had been released, after all – so watching Pig Cops explode into crimson heaps didn’t move the needle by itself. The shock of seeing characters walking through the corpses and leaving bloody footprints for a few steps afterward, however, did.

Quote

My favorite games have something in common: They anticipate what the player might do, and reward them for trying it. On that front, Duke Nukem 3D was a triumph. Squish an enemy with a collapsing ceiling, and their guts would extend like an accordion when the ceiling snapped back into place. Jetpack a ridiculous height, and you might find a hidden weapon. Jump onto a pool table, and you could kick the balls around. One of my favorite things was firing a rocket into a teleporter after an opponent fled into it – the projectile would follow through to the other side, and, if you were lucky, it would score you an unseen kill.

[Kathy]

Duke 3d spoiled mirrors for me forever. Too many times was I let down my more recent games.

[MusicallyInspired]

The only game I can recall that I've played since Duke3D that had proper mirrors was Prey. Am I wrong?

[Mr. Tibbs]

MusicallyInspired, on 07 September 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

The only game I can recall that I've played since Duke3D that had proper mirrors was Prey. Am I wrong?

Deus Ex (2000) had some pretty nice mirrors!

[Daedolon]

Tomb Raider.

[PsychoGoatee]

MusicallyInspired, on 07 September 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

The only game I can recall that I've played since Duke3D that had proper mirrors was Prey. Am I wrong?

Duke Nukem Forever, No One Lives Forever, Doom 3, a bunch others too, but more rare than we'd like.