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Duke Nukem 3D: 20th Anniversary World Tour

#3211

I don't know if anyone asked this What if 3DRealms made an eps 5 for Duke 3D the old team.
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User is offline   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#3212

Maybe it's time for a "Duke3D The Way 3DR Did" over here, similar to "Doom The Way id Did" over at the Doomworld forums. May take long since there are not so many active mappers around these days, but it could be a chance to revive the game a bit, better than World Tour did.

Fernando Marquez' first and second episode from his FM3X project were actually a lot like that already, even though I guess he didn't quite follow the design guidelines to mimic the style of the original creators of each vanilla map.

This post has been edited by NightFright: 07 April 2019 - 12:22 AM

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User is offline   ---- 

#3213

I never seen "Doom the way id Did", so I have a question.

Would that mean not only the level design would be the same or similar but also the level of detail from the original and only the art from the original?

EDIT:
I would like to see higher detail and especially new art/textures. I honestly get really bored with every map looking exactly the same.

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 07 April 2019 - 01:00 AM

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User is offline   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#3214

DTWiD used 100% stock textures and sprites, nothing new added. The idea behind it was to pretend Romero, Petersen and Hall had made alternate versions for each of their map slots, with different layouts but same mechanics (monsters, item placements, traps, level complexity etc). No level was supposed to look like any of the original maps regarding structures, but design. They also maintained vanilla compatibility, so you could play the levels in Chocolate Doom which imitates vanilla Doom as closely as possible. Maps had to stick to all the technical limitations from the original game.

A project like this certainly wouldn't be a demonstration of EDuke32's advanced features, but rather a throwback to 1996, pretending to be a lost 3DR expansion or rather even alternate Duke3D that had never been published.

This post has been edited by NightFright: 07 April 2019 - 01:15 AM

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#3215

Marquez levels looked like 3DR maps on the surface, but as you said, so many things were different (worse), including confusing layouts, too many button puzzles, scatter brained monster placement, and overall the look of the maps were.... I don't know how to say it.... just square. I mean they don't look as organic as the original levels.

IMHO "The Way 3D Realms Did" should be like completely new locations like parking tower, shopping plaza, hospital, underwater base, oil rig, airport whatever, but with the original design philosophy. I mean no coloured monsters/items, sprite and door sizes are also like the original game (not like trashcan with 25:42 repeat value, if you know what I mean), monsters gradual appearance with levels don't use all of them, some new textures that blend well with the originals, layouts using extensive SOS, keys and buttons are used to separate significantly different locations, and are not used to open random doors in sandbox level etc etc.

Condrad Coldwood's levels actually look like 3DRealms levels, the new textures in the hospital can be used in any 3DR level IMHO, too bad, the combat and the layouts are not so good in those. Boucher did a very interesting job with Traffic Jam. I think that looks pretty close to what we could expect from a 3DR level.
2

User is online   MetHy 

#3216

I don't believe a new true-classic style user made community episode is possible. First, very few mappers would be interested in that, the vast majority being more interested in developing their own style, which is not a bad thing, just a different thing.

Secondly, the set of rules and mapping guidelines for such a thing would be huge, more so than you think. It would be more complicated than DTWIDD simply because, as Build allows more liberty than Doom, the number of things to respect is exponential.
A few examples would be the way Duke ep1-3 handled wall shading, visibility, alt-pal, SoS, spritework, slopes, ambient sounds, and effects; none of which are a worry, or if they are not to such an extent, in Doom. Even the simplest thing as a door, in Doom you just tag the sector and it's done the exact same way ID did, in Duke to truly replicate 3DR you'd need to worry about the door type, speed, sound, autoclosing, etc in Doom texturing doesn't give me as much freedom, in Duke to make it look 3DR; mappers would need to forget every single usermap texturing rule and re-learn from the start to use each texture in their intended context, make sure the X-Y panning are correct and not an extreme that 3DR wouldn't have used, etc

Classic style is what I attempted when I started Metropolitan Mayhem though 2 things prevented me from succeeding at the time: lack of hindsight on everything that makes classic Duke classic; and the fact that the project was also a speedmapping project.

Conrad Coldwood did an amazing job with Insurance Overload especially yes, I love this map, it's one of my favourite ever, but even this map is still lacking some classic tropes, like the layout and architecture being a little too down to earth and lacking the "crazy touch" that made ep1/2/3 what they were; the absence of outdoor areas which is an essential dynamic in the majority of 3DR "city" maps, or the way the secret places are handled. Coldwood probably never intended it to be fully "3DR style" in which case what I just said isn't fair; but the point is to show how complicated such a feat would be.

This post has been edited by MetHy: 07 April 2019 - 04:21 AM

3

User is online   ck3D 

#3217

View PostMetHy, on 07 April 2019 - 04:18 AM, said:

[...] mappers would need to forget every single usermap texturing rule and re-learn from the start to use each texture in their intended context, make sure the X-Y panning are correct and not an extreme that 3DR wouldn't have used, etc

Classic style is what I attempted when I started Metropolitan Mayhem though 2 things prevented me from succeeding at the time: lack of hindsight on everything that makes classic Duke classic; and the fact that the project was also a speedmapping project. [...]


That's funny, that first sentence is completely what I meant in that other thread a while back, addressing the same subject, coincidentally also with Nancsi:

View Postck3D, on 28 February 2019 - 03:54 PM, said:

[...]that's the hardest type of mapping to achieve (especially if you come from a background of detailed mapping I'd say because then you have to learn to strip your own, naturally established style down to its fundamentals, which takes practice in itself and then you have to work on picking up a whole new dimension of mapping habits working from scratch again from said fundamentals, [...]


It's always reassuring to hear I'm not the only one who's wired like that and would need to 'unlearn' which in reality, purely by definition would actually be to 'learn properly'.

I still stand by my thought that a mapper's style will always be a giveaway whether or not the person has spent more time creating for the game than playing the original material. Pure creatives will just disregard 3DR tradition a lot more (occasionally including some useful teachings), to focus on nothing but the expression of their vision. On the other hand, avid players will have taken better notice of what the original maps did right, and how. Of course nothing is all black and white and as such, I'd say all mappers kind of float there somewhere in the spectrum, some further away than others.

I'm also with you with how enthusiastic, but naive we were pretending to tackle the 'original style' with Metropolitan Mayhem. I know I definitely failed on my end, but the experience was a pretty cute attempt in retrospect, helped expand the scope of my mapping and still I'm glad people enjoyed that episode.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 07 April 2019 - 05:00 AM

1

User is offline   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#3218

As much as I appreciated getting new levels from the original designers in WT, ultimately it felt a bit like they were added just to push undecided fans over the edge to buy Duke3D again. Ignoring that the addons were missing and will most likely never be added.

I guess for a "The Way X Did" project, you would first and foremost need one thing: Demand. There is a fan base for vanilla mapping in the Doom community, while there is no such thing here, probably also since we don't have a "purist port" focussed on vanilla game reproduction alone. It's not easy to willingly ignore all the extra features EDuke32 has to offer.

This post has been edited by NightFright: 07 April 2019 - 05:09 AM

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#3219

As much as I criticize some userlevel tropes (like some I pointed out in CK's latest map thread), I'm happy with EVERY Duke level these days. Mapping for the game became alarmingly scarce, most Dukers moved on, sometimes people return for one more, but it's getting rarer and rarer like prime numbers. So guys, do what you want first, if you do something 3DR compatible is just a nice bonus.
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#3220

I have a question did anyone mention a bug with the sharks on world tour?, If not I ran into a problem with them seems if you freeze them and let the unfreeze they are unkillable, it really reminds me of Nuclear Winter from Megaton Edition.
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User is offline   necroslut 

#3221

View PostDuke Legacy, on 07 April 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

I have a question did anyone mention a bug with the sharks on world tour?, If not I ran into a problem with them seems if you freeze them and let the unfreeze they are unkillable, it really reminds me of Nuclear Winter from Megaton Edition.

Yep, it's a known bug (one of the many...)
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User is offline   LeoD 

  • Topic #3513

#3222

Maybe I'm using the wrong search strings, but: who are the authors of the respective Ep.5 maps? I can't find that info so far.
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User is offline   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#3223

Allen H Blum III:
E5L1 High Times
E5L4 Mirage Barrage
E5L6 Golden Carnage
E5L7 Hollywood Inferno

Richard "Levelord" Gray:
E5L2 Red Ruckus
E5L3 Bloody Hell
E5L5 Tour de Nukem
E5L8 Prima Arena

This post has been edited by NightFright: 15 April 2019 - 10:40 AM

2

User is online   Phredreeke 

#3224

Randy Pitchford was co-author on Bloody Hell IIRC
1

User is offline   TerminX 

  • el fundador

  #3225

View PostPhredreeke, on 15 April 2019 - 10:55 AM, said:

Randy Pitchford was co-author on Bloody Hell IIRC

If he was, he didn't do any of the actual mapping on it as far as I know.
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User is online   Lunick 

  • Snazzy Ex Tazzy

#3226

View PostTerminX, on 15 April 2019 - 01:24 PM, said:

If he was, he didn't do any of the actual mapping on it as far as I know.


He was supposed to though, right? Or at least, I think I heard that in one of the dev commentaries
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User is offline   necroslut 

#3227

View PostLunick, on 15 April 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

He was supposed to though, right? Or at least, I think I heard that in one of the dev commentaries

From what I recall he started it and Levelord finished it? Though maybe it was just some on-paper planning and no actual Building, even though the initial plan was supposedly for him to do the whole thing.
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User is offline   Jimmy 

  • 1776 World Wide

#3228

My problem with WT is that they were too ambitious. Look how much clamor a simple project like Sigil for Doom gets. They tried to do too much. And honestly, the fact that they shoe-horned in dynamic lighting, and that the new maps were specifically designed with it in mind, is very offputting to me and I still haven't completed the episode. It just has too many problems, and I really honestly would rather play Nuclear Winter.
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User is offline   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#3229

Not to forget adjusting all the classic maps for the new lighting system. Even if the changes were often rather cosmetic. Lights look ok in Polymer, but I guess it's not the same look as with the WT renderer. Sadly, lighting is an important part of these maps and without it they often don't look even half as good.

Since I can't fully enjoy the new maps in EDuke32 (also due to the stopgap being incomplete), I have my problems accepting these entries as part of the Duke3D canon.

They are still nice, though, even if they are lacking transitions for better coherence. And they should have just properly resampled the old Duke speech instead of recording new takes. But that's optional and has nothing to do with the levels.

This post has been edited by NightFright: 15 April 2019 - 10:04 PM

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#3230

Some pretty hilarious jabs at Randy and World Tour made in this video
https://youtu.be/6sJ1f20R10I
2

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • Buy Mage's Initiation!

#3231

Here it is with media tags:


1

User is offline   Sledgehammer 

  • Once you start doubting, there's no end to it

#3232

This is a bit unrelated, but I can't be the only one person who found out how to avoid damage caused by a wall explosion in Hollywood Holocaust, right? Every time people play the level they always go straight and thus explosion damage them. However, you can jump and cover yourself with a box which is opposite to the wall, but I'm not sure if you have duck. I don't know if the devs did this on purpose but I always thought it was neat.
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#3233

View PostSledgehammer, on 17 April 2019 - 01:46 PM, said:

This is a bit unrelated, but I can't be the only one person who found out how to avoid damage caused by a wall explosion in Hollywood Holocaust, right? Every time people play the level they always go straight and thus explosion damage them. However, you can jump and cover yourself with a box which is opposite to the wall, but I'm not sure if you have duck. I don't know if the devs did this on purpose but I always thought it was neat.

It would be weird if isn't on purpose, as it is the only crate on the level.Probably some people are just too careless or unwary, does not matter the game, they skip some details: foot steps, various sounds (respawns, weapon switching), taking advange on environmental elements, and then, when they are in multiplayer, easly start to complain because they are so sure about other players are cheating, reasoning with most of them results in a waste of time.Also, this is the reason because i think that there are a lot of campers out there, they don't really know the games they play, and everything become static like an hell of hospice.


This post has been edited by The Battlelord: 17 April 2019 - 05:55 PM

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User is offline   gemeaux333 

#3234

Do anyone know when Duke is saying "You're gonna need an I.C.U" in the 5th episode ?
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#3235

Is this old or new Duke Nukem 3D World Tour heading to the switch, if new I think it is stupid that it is being release so late it should have been release with the other versions of world tour.
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User is offline   ryche 

#3236

It’s new news sorta within the last week but it’s the same WT we got on PC and consoles.
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User is offline   gemeaux333 

#3237

I wondered; does the "SHIFT" (assuming its related to the SHIFT acount providing bonuses for Borderlands games) option add anything to the game ?
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User is offline   necroslut 

#3238

View Postgemeaux333, on 27 April 2020 - 08:01 AM, said:

I wondered; does the "SHIFT" (assuming its related to the SHIFT acount providing bonuses for Borderlands games) option add anything to the game ?

I don't think it's ever been used.
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User is offline   gemeaux333 

#3239

When I click on it, it just send me to the SHIFT webpage...
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User is offline   Player Lin 

#3240

I guess they did planned but considering how poor WT sales and only got one patch update...then I think Shovelware just give up WT and never implement functionality of SHIFT to it at all...

This post has been edited by Player Lin: 28 April 2020 - 03:22 AM

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