Half-Life corner
#211 Posted 17 August 2017 - 06:20 PM
Anyways, what will be the future of Half-Life? Is it going to be HL3? And if so, will it pick up where Episode 2 left off and then branch out further to a new storyline for Gordon?
#212 Posted 17 August 2017 - 07:29 PM
#213 Posted 18 August 2017 - 12:54 AM
Toxic34, on 17 August 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:
A couple of years down the line and past the initial impressiveness, I honestly don't think Black Mesa holds up really well. It looks good, but it IMO plays worse than Half-Life - which already had issues - and the environments are unnecessarily messy and cluttered. I think it really does raise a few questions regarding how to do "old-school" level design with modern graphics, and the feasibility of doing so.
That said, I looked over the released D3D:Reloaded screenshots recently as well, and the graphic style they chose would probably make things stand out more than in Black Mesa.
Toxic34, on 17 August 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:
There's no way HL3 will/would start at the Ep. 2 cliffhanger - it's just way too late. My guess is it would start somewhat like HL2 - a new setting, some unspecified time later.
#214 Posted 18 August 2017 - 01:29 AM
Yes, there are still a few problems with the meshes (you can walk on screws that stick out a quarter of an inch from walls), but for my taste the overall mechanics work better.
The graphics aren't up to date anymore but are past that "2002-barrier" after which (true) 3D games actually looked so good that they won't need constant updates to still look halfway decent a decade later.
And the good news is, a modder team works on a Half Life 2 - Episode 3 mod ... which will probably come out in 7 years already. OK, they admit they don't have any voice actors for dialogues ... but they already have a forum post with one reply and the intention of working more with the gravity gun.
This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 18 August 2017 - 01:29 AM
#215 Posted 18 August 2017 - 04:43 AM
necroslut, on 18 August 2017 - 12:54 AM, said:
Valve would be lynched if they didn't start right where they stopped. I'd almost rather have no game at all....which is infinitely more likely. Valve as a game designer is dead. There will be no more Half-Life.
#216 Posted 18 August 2017 - 05:46 AM
MusicallyInspired, on 18 August 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:
You woudln't want a game that takes place 25 years after the events of Episode 2 and is a trading card game with additional looting mechanics?
What is wrong with you?
This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 18 August 2017 - 05:46 AM
#217 Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:00 AM
MusicallyInspired, on 18 August 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:
How the hell could they? You can't start the biggest FPS sequel since DNF with a cliffhanger to a 10 year old expansion pack. It's just not realistic. Some fans will be pissed, yeah, but I'm certain they can win them over in some other way. I just can't see it happening at this point, it wouldn't make sense.
#218 Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:01 AM
For Black Mesa we have more realistic and living graphics/environments, better designed levels ("On a rail" have been partially cut becauses pointlessly teddious, "Surface tension" was partially cut too but recently the missing part was added and is way more interesting than it's HL1 equivalent), way better sound quality + additionnal lines + new musics...
This post has been edited by gemeaux333: 18 August 2017 - 06:01 AM
#219 Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:12 AM
necroslut, on 18 August 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:
That's why there will be no more Half-Life. You can't do anything else because Ep2's cliffhanger was the biggest loose-thread cliffhanger of all time. It left you promptly with an urgency to hunt down and murder those villainous Combine Advisors and destroy their whole freakin' species, to paraphrase a certain Duke one-liner. It was the single biggest let down in gaming history when they never allowed you to do so. It's like the most unsatisfying end to an otherwise masterpiece film. Literally the only thing that could possibly be worse is continuing the franchise ignoring that loose thread. Plus all the writers are gone. It's better to stay with the lesser of two evils.
This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 18 August 2017 - 06:13 AM
#220 Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:26 AM
All they can do is making very little isolated things, like creating a new hat or maybe a new Hero. But those are simplistic tasks compared to making a game.
And with their flat structure within the company it seems nobody has the talent to motivate others to do Half Life 3/ Episode 3 with a vision or a demo.
*) I can't comment on what might come and what is up their sleeve.
#221 Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:37 AM
MusicallyInspired, on 18 August 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:
I think there are other ways to address that than starting at the spot where Ep.2 left off or simply ignoring the cliffhanger. One is to start somewhere/sometime else and slowly or gradually let the player pick up on what have happened, somewhat like in HL2. Another is to make/release a short episode, mostly as fan-service, that resolves the cliffhanger and little else and leads up to where HL3 can begin. But even if they do simply skip over it, I think they can survive it. Half-Life never really was about the story anyway.
But making an "episode 3" now, after all these years, it's neither realistic or called for. But I don't think that makes HL3 an impossibility. If the game is awesome enough, there will be more than enough people who won't care about some loose threads from an old expansion pack. There's a whole new generation of gamers who wasn't there for HL2 and the episodes. I doubt many of them will care enough to "lynch" Valve. And even with the older fans, if the game is good and impressive enough, I think they might forgive too.
fuegerstef, on 18 August 2017 - 06:26 AM, said:
All they can do is making very little isolated things, like creating a new hat or maybe a new Hero. But those are simplistic tasks compared to making a game.
And with their flat structure within the company it seems nobody has the talent to motivate others to do Half Life 3/ Episode 3 with a vision or a demo.
*) I can't comment on what might come and what is up their sleeve.
I don't think lack of writers really matters. They can hire new writers, or maybe rehire old ones if called for. Neither of the Half-Life games were really built around the story the way players seem to think they were.
And Valve has announced they're working on now four titles at least, three VR titles and the card game, so I think it's a bit premature to rule them out as capable of development.
This post has been edited by necroslut: 18 August 2017 - 06:40 AM
#222 Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:38 AM
necroslut, on 18 August 2017 - 06:37 AM, said:
No, but the writers strung the gamplay elements together in a way that created a story and mystery that in FPS is unmatched, IMHO.
And if Portal is Gabe's favourite game but cannot come up with a third, although one of the most interesting gameplay mechanics for portals is right in front of his nose, without adding new gels or whatnot, it is sad, very, very sad.
This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 18 August 2017 - 06:40 AM
#223 Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:44 AM
fuegerstef, on 18 August 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:
And if Portal is Gabe's favourite game but cannot come up with a third, although one of the most interesting gameplay mechanics for portals is right in front of his nose, without adding new gels or whatnot, it is sad, very, very sad.
There are other writers out there, I don't think they really are irreplaceable. The "mystery "is interesting, because it was largely a smokescreen, though an effective one. The influence of X-Files on HL1 was very apparent. I still think the leave of a couple of writers is not nearly as big of a problem as it sounds, or the biggest problem either. The biggest challenge, similar to how it is with Duke, is being able to create gameplay and presentation that is as, or nearly as, gamechanging and impressive as the previous games were. If they can do that, the writing barely matters.
#224 Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:49 AM
I'll f***ing pissed off!
But, then again...if they ever make it.
---
Yeah, if the gameplay sucked so hard then who cares about the plot and writing?
#225 Posted 18 August 2017 - 09:17 AM
#226 Posted 18 August 2017 - 02:23 PM
necroslut, on 18 August 2017 - 06:37 AM, said:
Like I said, anything other than getting to go after the people that killed Eli Vance is a huge let down and a gigantic cop-out. I don't want to hear about how it happened, I want to do it. I'd much rather they create some new IP. I don't think anyone there is left that's that creative anymore, though.
Quote
I don't agree at all. Just because DNF failed doesn't mean Ep3 would. Unlike DNF, Half-Life has an unfinished story. With DNF we weren't sure what we were getting, it wasn't a an unfinished hole in a story or even a continuation. It was a sequel. With Episode 3 we know exactly the context. It's an unfinished story. It's a loose thread. It's not something that has no context around it. That's an easier place to start from.
Quote
It wasn't just some "old expansion pack". It was a continuation of a narrative. It wasn't just tacked on. It was all part of the story arc, unlike the Opposing Force and Blue Shift addons for the original Half-Life which were just bonus little stories inside the main one.
Quote
Quote
I'll believe it when I see it.
necroslut, on 18 August 2017 - 06:44 AM, said:
Again, I don't agree at all. In Half-Life 1, yes there barely was any story, but that simply wasn't the case with HL2 and its episodes. The aura of intrigue and sci-fi mystery combined with action and horror is not something you can just replicate. The reason I liked Half-Life so much was because of that aura. And that aura is largely due to Laidlaw. You can't just slap an FPS together and throw a HL paint job on it with all the characters and believe it's going to feel the same. Is there any other shooter out there with the same atmosphere as Half-Life? No. It'll feel like a cheap hack. Maybe that can cheat "newcomers", but if any of them go back and play the originals they'll surely see what was missing. Writing plays a big part. Not the biggest part, but a strong part. I've always believed that it's an equal combination of story and gameplay that adds to the greatness of a game. You can't just say "the writing barely matters". That's ridicuous. Especially in Half-Life's case.
gemeaux333, on 18 August 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:
Except that Ep3 was supposed to finish off the HL2 story arc. I wouldn't mind if someone came along after that to write new HL material, but the cliffhanger must be dealt with. And you can't just use anybody to fill that role to finish it off.
#227 Posted 18 August 2017 - 02:38 PM
MusicallyInspired, on 18 August 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:
I don't agree at all. Just because DNF failed doesn't mean Ep3 would. Unlike DNF, Half-Life has an unfinished story. With DNF we weren't sure what we were getting, it wasn't a an unfinished hole in a story or even a continuation. It was a sequel. With Episode 3 we know exactly the context. It's an unfinished story. It's a loose thread. It's not something that has no context around it. That's an easier place to start from.
It wasn't just some "old expansion pack". It was a continuation of a narrative. It wasn't just tacked on. It was all part of the story arc, unlike the Opposing Force and Blue Shift addons for the original Half-Life which were just bonus little stories inside the main one.
I'll believe it when I see it.
Again, I don't agree at all. In Half-Life 1 (which I think I directly namedropped), yes there barely was any story, but that simply wasn't the case with HL2 and its episodes. The aura of intrigue and sci-fi mystery combined with action and horror is not something you can just replicate. The reason I liked Half-Life so much was because of that aura. And that aura is largely due to Laidlaw. You can't just slap an FPS together and throw a HL paint job on it with all the characters and believe it's going to feel the same. Is there any other shooter out there with the same atmosphere as Half-Life? No. It'll feel like a cheap hack. Maybe that can cheat "newcomers", but if any of them go back and play the originals they'll surely see what was missing. Writing plays a big part. Not the biggest part, but a strong part. I've always believed that it's an equal combination of story and gameplay that adds to the greatness of a game. You can't just say "the writing barely matters". That's ridicuous. Especially in Half-Life's case.
Except that Ep3 was supposed to finish off the HL2 story arc. I wouldn't mind if someone came along after that to write new HL material, but the cliffhanger must be dealt with. And you can't just use anybody to fill that role to finish it off.
Well , yeah, I was speaking more of HL1. HL2 obviously has a bit more "actual" story. I'm just saying, I can imagine there are ways that would work, without startling directly where ep.2 left off. And, honestly, .... if you go back in time and HL1 had ended on a similar cliffhanger as ep. 2... would you not have played it? And would it not have blown you away all the same? And would you not have loved it? It's a tall order, sure, but I do think it could, theoretically, be done.
And, well, I'm one of those people who actually really liked DNF, despite its flaws. If HL3 came out and was about the quality of DNF, as completely unlikely as that is due to Valve's infinitely more stable economical situation, I'd lap that shit up still.
I think there are other capable writers in the world than Laidlaw. And there's probably a ton, or at least some, outlines of what would have happened since. Ep. 3 was, I believe, once in full production, so there must be something to work off.
What I meant with the "built around story" bit was that, as far as I understand, Valve built the gameplay first and then constructed a story around it that fit. They didn't start with writing a story and then made a game out of it, like some fucking movie license deal. And honestly, even HL2 lives more off its presentation than the actual story.
Either way, I'm sure that in a best-case scenario, even you wouldn't care about the cliffhanger ending. If the game was good enough. And I have so far no reason to doubt that if/when it comes out, it will be. And if the actual game isn't any good, the best writing in the world wouldn't have saved it. This isn't a book we're talking about, after all.
This post has been edited by necroslut: 18 August 2017 - 02:41 PM
#228 Posted 18 August 2017 - 02:55 PM
MusicallyInspired, on 18 August 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:
It wouldn't be the first time a cliffhanger was completely ignored. It's a TV show, not a game, but the popular British sci-fi comedy Red Dwarf had this massive cliffhanger at the end of season 8 with most of the main characters locked away in a mirror dimension, and the ship literally falling apart around the last guy. New episodes come out many years later and everything's essentially back to normal. The season after they casually teased that they were going to explain what happened but didn't get around to it. Still, I guess Red Dwarf is about as far as you can get from Half Life by any comparison.
#229 Posted 18 August 2017 - 04:03 PM
necroslut, on 18 August 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:
Half-Life 1 did end on a cliffhanger. But they weren't pressured to have a sequel or follow-up at all. It was made to end like that. I know that Half-Life will always have a loose thread just to keep it interesting. It always has. The only difference with Ep2 is that they had already planned and announced 3 whole episodes and everyone was expecting the HL2 story arc to finish up. Valve put themselves in that problem and now they can't get out of it. That's probably why they haven't done anything. Though, it is strange because they had concept art and everything. It seemed to be well on the way and then at some point is just seemed like it just....stopped. I'd really like to know what happened. They went from "Yep it's coming!" to "It takes time" to "We're not talking about it" to "We have nothing to say about Half-Life."
Quote
Actually, I liked it too, but it was a bit of a disappointment all the same.
Quote
Hopefully. I would really have liked to see what Laidlaw could have brought to the table for that one last jaunt though...
Quote
Yes, development-wise....but after it's said and done the story aspect no matter at what point it came was a huge part of it...at least for me.
Quote
Yeah, gameplay needs to bring it. Time will tell if they do release something with or without Laidlaw and whether I'll enjoy it or not.
Micky C, on 18 August 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:
Red Dwarf is comedy though right? That sort of gets a free pass.
#230 Posted 18 August 2017 - 04:32 PM
MusicallyInspired, on 18 August 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:
Well, yeah, every Half-life game or expansion so far ended with some sort of a cliffhanger - it's part of the design almost. But sure, ep.2's cliffhanger was worse. I don't think the cliffhanger is at all released to the lack of new releases though - rather that the episodic development model didn't at all pan out - remember they were intending to have episodes developed and released relatively quickly - and the result simply wasn't what they wanted for Half-Life. Which is the way I felt about the episodes. Sure, they were fine to play and so, but it wasn't the "Half-Life experience" we'd come to expect. That would have been fine if they got the episodes out quickly, but four years between HL2 and Ep. 2 wasn't not reasonable. They abandoned episodic games completely after that.
MusicallyInspired, on 18 August 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:
Well, sure it was. Even without the 14 year or whatever hype it was released in a poor state- unfinished and unpolished - and with tacked on console features and limitations stripping down an already stripped down version of the original game. Still, I enjoyed it for what it was, even if it wasn't what it once was meant to be.
MusicallyInspired, on 18 August 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:
Well, who knows.... If they at one point get the game going in full gear maybe he can be tempted to come back even though he said he wouldn't.
MusicallyInspired, on 18 August 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:
He's right about it hardly being the first time a cliffhanger is ignored though. There is some fallout when you do that, but it can be managed if you do the rest right.
#231 Posted 18 August 2017 - 05:21 PM
The bottom line: it really seems like that Valve has to get around to making that HL3 a reality in the future.
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 18 August 2017 - 05:24 PM
#232 Posted 18 August 2017 - 05:38 PM
#233 Posted 19 August 2017 - 04:08 AM
MusicallyInspired, on 18 August 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:
I don't think that is true anymore... A few years ago, perhaps, but HL2 is so old by now not marketing would significantly reduce its impact. Not to mention that releasing a title without marketing it signals lack of faith in the product. A lot of people would be like "HL3 is released? Cool." and go on with their day. The fans would check it out - sure - but it's a game that really could have a far larger reach than the hardcore HL fanbase.
#234 Posted 19 August 2017 - 07:37 AM
This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 19 August 2017 - 07:38 AM
#235 Posted 19 August 2017 - 08:41 AM
MusicallyInspired, on 19 August 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:
DNF did have a major marketing campaign, though. I can't imagine it being anything other than a financial flop otherwise. And being a "meme" makes a game a joke, not a hit or a best-seller.
#236 Posted 19 August 2017 - 08:23 PM
#237 Posted 20 August 2017 - 12:55 AM
MusicallyInspired, on 19 August 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:
There's a difference between knowing and caring. And also, I would imagine not everyone knew. Duke 3D and Half-Life both are so old that there's a new generation of gamers who never played them, and a large portion of the original fans probably don't follow gaming news anymore, and might very well miss that it is out even if they actually would be interested. HL3 is the kind of title that could get some people who don't really play games anymore to get back into it, at least temporarily.
#238 Posted 20 August 2017 - 03:30 AM
https://youtu.be/bwxvyVwOO0k
This post has been edited by Tekedon: 20 August 2017 - 03:31 AM
#239 Posted 20 August 2017 - 05:36 AM
#240 Posted 20 August 2017 - 08:41 AM
gemeaux333, on 20 August 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:
Or maybe they'll start actually curating Steam now? I'd be happy with that, the greatest gaming store quickly turned into a cesspit when they opened the floodgates.
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 20 August 2017 - 08:41 AM